10 replies to this topic

[Lex Peregrine]

Extra heat dissipation in water is just not enough, I sugest a new way of looking at heatsinks, here's my opinion:

Single HS: Dissipates quicker, but less heat threshold
Double HS: Dissipates slower, but more heat threshold

So Single HS is better for mechs with fewer energy weapons that rely more on DPS, while Double HS is better for mechs with more energy weapons that are able to fire more powerfull alphas but will take more time to cool down completely.

In my mind, an Awesome with 3 PPCs (screw ghost heat, not talking about that) with single HS, if it fires all 3 ppcs at the same time it should overheat and risk engine damage if shutdown overriden, but cooldown would be quick enough to recover and fire again a single ppc soon so it doesnt risk more damage, or chain-fire the ppcs to better manage the heat. If it used double HS, the threshold would be larger, he could fire all 3 ppcs and still have some heat capacity to spare, but cooldown would take a bit more time, so dont expect repeated alphas of 3 ppcs every few seconds.

My point is, make single heat sinks usefull, right now it seems upgrading to double is the first thing we have to do after buying a new mech and starting to customize it. Although lore says double HS make mechs cool twice as fast, I think this is one case its worth going against it a bit, and the logic is, if double heat sinks take 3 times the critical slots, then why not give 3 times heat threshold? At the cost of reduced dissipation (more surface to cool? not necessarily 3 times less, I would say 1.5 or less).

Clan double HS take 2 critical slots, so they should go between IS single and IS double, with the added bonus of being able to be fited in the legs and take advantage of extra cooldown when in water. I would go so far as to sugest Clan double HS have same dissipation of IS single, and twice heat threshold of IS single, so IS double still have advantage of higher threshold but suffer in dissipation.

[Flapdrol]

I'd go for doubles having more dissipation and less treshold.

Anyway, the main thing that's broken is the 2.0 in engine heatsinks, if they were 1.0 single heatsinks wouldn't be useless.

anyway, beating a dead horse, the heat system has been broken forever, these things have been suggested many times and pgi has never shown any interest.

[Lex Peregrine]

Flapdrol, on 09 May 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

I'd go for doubles having more dissipation and less treshold.

Anyway, the main thing that's broken is the 2.0 in engine heatsinks, if they were 1.0 single heatsinks wouldn't be useless.

anyway, beating a dead horse, the heat system has been broken forever, these things have been suggested many times and pgi has never shown any interest.

Yea I wouldnt mind the reverse either, I just think its more logical to have a heatsink that requires more space to have larger threshold, and using the Awesome as example, the 9M with upgraded heatsinks becomes more able to fire all its PPCs at the same time without overheat, and not the other way around.

[Ovion]

Really, ALL Double Heat Sinks should be 2.0.
I believe there was also a HS limit in Tabletop (30?)

The tradeoff was
A: Single Heatsinks, less ability to deal with heat, takes up 1/3 the space, cheaper.
B: Double Heatsinks, more ability to deal with heat, takes up 3x the space, more expensive.

[OznerpaG]

there should be no SHS to DHS upgrade - all engine heat sinks should be all SHS, and you should be able to mount a mix of either or both SHS/DHS on any mech critical spaces since all mechs will have a lot less heat capacity with engine SHS. also DHS would be able to have true 2.0 heat dissipation with this scenario

if you made the engine heat sinks all shs, endo and ferro would become a MUCH harder decision to upgrade to since every mech would have too add a lot more heat sinks. it would add a lot more strategy to outfitting your mech

[FupDup]

JagdFlanker, on 09 May 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

there should be no SHS to DHS upgrade - all engine heat sinks should be all SHS, and you should be able to mount a mix of either or both SHS/DHS on any mech critical spaces since all mechs will have a lot less heat capacity with engine SHS. also DHS would be able to have true 2.0 heat dissipation with this scenario

if you made the engine heat sinks all shs, endo and ferro would become a MUCH harder decision to upgrade to since every mech would have too add a lot more heat sinks. it would add a lot more strategy to outfitting your mech

If you made all engine sinks into SHS, any energy-based (or even just carrying a few energy mixed with other weapon types) builds would be completely crippled. I appreciate the effort to help SHS, and I'm one of the most staunch supporters of buffed SHS, but that isn't the way to do it.

Being able to mix sink types on the outside, though, has merit and could work well. There are certainly a few builds that I had some extra tonnage on but not enough consecutive critslots to mount more DHS...

[Barkem Squirrel]

After 42 SHS, are superior.

[Mister Blastman]

How to make useful...

Set doubles to 2.0

Set heat dissipation rate to a four second interval, tuned with the medium laser.

...... How on earth will that help?


Well, let's see... CURRENTLY

1 Single Heatsink dissipates 0.1 points of heat a second over a ten second timeframe.

In my PROPOSED model...

1 Single Heatsink dissipates 0.25 points of heat a second over a four second timeframe.

BAM!

250% increase in dissipation rate... for all heatsinks.

If you want to build a heat-neutral medium laser mech, for instance...

8x Medium Lasers... 8x4 = 32 ... sooo... 32 / 4 = 8 (duh), then 8/2.5 = 32 single heatsinks needed. Ooorrrr.. 1 hps per medium laser x 8 / .25 = 32.

Want 10? (1 hps per laser x 10) / .25 = 40 singles.

Simple, right?

How about 2x ERPPCs...? (3.75 hps x 2) / 30 singles.

And it goes on and on.

Why?

If we do this... energy weapons can now compete again with ballistics. SRM boats will also be viable. The multitude of NON-Sniper options flood into the game like we have never seen.

For this to work, however, you MUST set the heat-cap at 30. A hard 30. And put movement penalties in there along with other ones, also.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 May 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

As much as I'd like to see single heat sinks to become useful in MWO ... in BT lore double heat sinks are a direct upgrade of singles ... aka they are better in every possible way.

Currently DHS are mandatory for all or nearly all mechs, but the reason for that is no customization restrictions to IS mechs that should by all means be present.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'm okay with DHS being an upgrade for SHS.

But MWO Heatsinks currently affect two attributes related to Heat, Dissipation and Capacity, the problem is how they are both getting modified.

What should be considered is having Heatsinks only modify one attribute, with the second one fixed in some way.

Here is current Heatsink behavior:

Spoiler

One SHS gives 0.1 Dissipation and 1.0 Capacity each. DHS give 0.2 Dissipation and 2.0 Capacity in the Engine, outside the engine DHS are 0.14 and 1.4

And we start with a base 30 Capacity, so ten SHS provide a combined Dissipation of 1.0 and 40 Capacity. Ten DHS with a 250 engine provide a combined Dissipation of 2.0 and 50 Capacity.

Factor in boosts from Coolrun, Heat Containment and unlocking the Elite tier in the Mech Tree and the values increase to:

• 10 SHS 1.15 Dissipation 48 Capacity
  
• 10 DHS 2.30 Dissipation 60 Capacity (250 engine)

My idea is similar to Mister Blastman.


I too like having Capacity fixed at 30, but I also would like to restrict Coolrun and Heat Containment to select mechs, based on balance considerations with a new Mech Tree (and changes to Heat Containment to modify Dissipation instead of Capacity as it currently does). For example, it might be possible to have those two on an Awesome or Hunchback but not on a Stalker or Shadowhawk for example.

So we could start with having:

• SHS at 0.15 Dissipation each
  
• DHS at 0.23 Dissipation each

The increases are to help with MWO's increased rate of fire and to allow other modifiers to be available to stack such as Coolrun and/or Heat Containment. Other aspects to explore is to apply a base dissipation value to variants, Such as allowing different Variants unique quirks, such as the HBK-4P could have 0.3 base dissipation when using Lasers, or the Awesomes get a 0.2 added if using a PPC and so on.


Stacking SHS in a mech is not often worth it, and could work with a few builds but it would require a boatload of SHS to get a return on that tonnage choice most of the time.

To get 20 to 24 DHS in one mech is not easy or too common, Stalkers can with a four LL build. The Dissipation on that mech would be 5.52 an increase of ~0.97 from it's current 4.55 on a fully Elited Stalker, but the big difference, instead of having a Heat Capacity of 83.52 that Cap would be at 30. And Large Lasers are already limited to a max of two at a time before seeing a small penalty, along with the capacity to increase their heat back up to 8 from their current value of 7 if deemed necessary to help balance, a tweak like this should be good for the game.



Another change that could also be explored, is instead of shutting down if reaching the Heat Capacity at 30, the weapons simply wouldn't fire, until the heat lowered enough to fire again. Heat related Consumables should still be useful if using a build that rides the threshold or in a pinch. And if a player hits Override, they could then fire if the Heat goes beyond 30, but at the risk of a prolonged shutdown and also taking damage if the heat spike beyond 30 was too high taking too long to dissipate with frequent Overrides.

Something like this helps new players, and hopefully doesn't trivialize other elements available in the game like the Cool Shots.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 09 May 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Lex Peregrine]

Good post!
I also like the later option!