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Balance

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#41 Eglar

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:17 AM

View Postkamiko kross, on 10 May 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

However, MWO is a game. Unlike what you mention, which most decidedly isn't. What is being discussed isn't real combat, nor any kind of approximation thereof. What is being discussed is player behaviour, attitudes the meta and the effect it has on the quality of gameplay.

It's a game, and certain attitudes and behaviours are ruining the experience.


I am not saying that having a competitive mindset focused on winning and never compromising, always giving it your all in a videogame is the only way to play this game. There are others players who enjoy other facettes of the game like Joe, who deeply enjoys the tactical part of the game and manages to apply certain military doctrines into his game-play (just my guess).

However for those who are stuck in "Meta-Hell", "Elo-Hell" or "Premade-Hell" really should know their places, goals and how to reach a happier place.

Edited by Eglar, 10 May 2014 - 07:21 AM.


#42 MechWarrior5152251

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:19 AM

You are all way off on PGI's ability to balance. It is pretty impressive that they have made a game where a 25 ton mech can compete with a 100 ton mech and neither is outmatched. Just imagine TT in a Commando up against an Atlas.

#43 Mcgral18

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:28 AM

View Post911 Inside Job, on 10 May 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

You are all way off on PGI's ability to balance. It is pretty impressive that they have made a game where a 25 ton mech can compete with a 100 ton mech and neither is outmatched. Just imagine TT in a Commando up against an Atlas.


A game where the commando has to be careful where it steps, otherwise it will be crushed.

Wait....it can leghump the Atlas with impunity.

But one thing is true, all weapons are equal. It doesn't matter what it's mounted on, a ML is 5 damage.

But their ability to balance is obviously poor. Pulse lasers are in a good place according to them. The heat system is working as intended. Doubled armor would never have been necessary had weapons not been doing 3 times their damage. Along with 3 times their heat.
There wouldn't be a significantly optimal loadout had they balanced. Sure, there would always be one slightly better, but FLD compared to spread? Not much contest.

#44 FupDup

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:30 AM

View Post911 Inside Job, on 10 May 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

You are all way off on PGI's ability to balance. It is pretty impressive that they have made a game where a 25 ton mech can compete with a 100 ton mech and neither is outmatched. Just imagine TT in a Commando up against an Atlas.

Competent Atlas pilots (in MWO) should not be dying to Commandos on a regular basis unless they're already very damaged ahead of time. Otherwise, the problem is the guy in the Atlas' cockpit.

#45 Felbombling

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:37 AM

Here is something interesting. NoGutsNoGalaxy put up three new videos on YouTube yesterday that have three rounds of high meta clan vs clan play on them. Over the course of the three videos you will see that EVERY SINGLE MECH had jump jets. All twenty-four of them. Not only that, but all three matches were completely devoid of LRMs. It was all PPC, Autocannons and Lasers.

Not sure exactly what that says about game balance as it stands now, but Paul did state in one of their Ask the Devs videos that game balance was really, really close!

I guess this is the game they were thinking of when they started.

#46 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:40 AM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 10 May 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here is something interesting. NoGutsNoGalaxy put up three new videos on YouTube yesterday that have three rounds of high meta clan vs clan play on them. Over the course of the three videos you will see that EVERY SINGLE MECH had jump jets. All twenty-four of them. Not only that, but all three matches were completely devoid of LRMs. It was all PPC, Autocannons and Lasers.

Not sure exactly what that says about game balance as it stands now, but Paul did state in one of their Ask the Devs videos that game balance was really, really close!

I guess this is the game they were thinking of when they started.
It says players would rather be Front line than Support from where I'm sitting.

#47 Eglar

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 10 May 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here is something interesting. NoGutsNoGalaxy put up three new videos on YouTube yesterday that have three rounds of high meta clan vs clan play on them. Over the course of the three videos you will see that EVERY SINGLE MECH had jump jets. All twenty-four of them. Not only that, but all three matches were completely devoid of LRMs. It was all PPC, Autocannons and Lasers.

Not sure exactly what that says about game balance as it stands now, but Paul did state in one of their Ask the Devs videos that game balance was really, really close!

I guess this is the game they were thinking of when they started.


LRMs are unreliable, primarily because of map-restrictions. Did you also notice the lack of ECM mechs?

#48 RangerGee412

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:57 AM

Every game or game mode with no espawns has almost always been like this. Alot of people are worried about losing their virtual life. I find sniping boring so I always try to close the range as quickly as possible.

#49 Felbombling

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:57 AM

Yeah, I did, Eglar... which plays more into my point. Very specific Mechs on both sides. Cataphract 3Ds, Dragon Slayers and Jenners pop to mind... no pun intended.

#50 YueFei

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:32 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 10 May 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

Thats just attempting to re-direct blame from yourself. In reality it takes two to tango. Theres also the very real issue that it takes time to fix stuff.

Lets say there was something i could do to instant kill the entire enemy team. Be it a bug or a overpowered weapon. I could use it till it gets fixed...or i could choose not to. The moment i chose, of my own free will to use it, i am liable for it. I do not get to claim that i am innocent and its not my fault the issue existed in the first place.


But of course you're innocent. The players of the game are *supposed* to push the envelope. That's half the fun, to discover new ways of doing things. If the developers of the game don't fix it, that's their problem. Until they do fix it, use whatever you find.

For example, Rogues in World of Warcraft had several abilities to incapacitate an enemy player. These incapacitations would break on damage. The intent behind these abilities is that you take away the opponent's ability to act, but you cannot further damage him without ending the incapacitation. However, I discovered a trick that allowed a Rogue to reliably apply things like Expose Armor to debuff a target's armor rating, while the target was incapacitated by Blind/Gouge/Sap, *without* breaking Blind or Gouge or Sap. Blizzard almost certainly never envisioned Rogue players being able to do this in their original design of the class. I discovered this trick almost purely by accident... I never played a Rogue, I played a Warrior, but I noticed the way the weapon swing timer reset itself when swapping weapons. I mentioned this to some Rogue players and suggested that they try using it to avoid having their weapon swing and deal damage, so it wouldn't break an incapacitate when trying to apply a non-damaging debuff. In particular, they could do something like Blind -> Expose Armor -> Restealth, and then come back in with a new opener against a badly debuffed target.

Even though Blizzard never intended Rogue players to be able to do this, it turned out to be a useful technique, but not overpowered. Opposing players learned how to deal with countering this tactic. So, Blizzard left it in the game.

When players *did* find ways to do stuff that was completely ridiculous, like Paladin Reckoning Bombs that let them one-shot anything in the game, it lasted for a while until Blizzard patched it. It wasn't a bug at all, just them pushing a feature to the envelope. None of the mature players got mad at any other players who utilized it, hell, it was funny to see a Paladin kill a boss in 1 hit. They had fun with it and Blizzard had to get off their asses and fix it.

Quote

If your door lock was faulty and i took advantage of that to go into your house and steal everything you have...are you going to blame me or whatever caused your lock to be faulty? I can tell you that the law would definately hold me liable.


False analogy. Stealing and robbing are illegal. Equipping mechs in a way that *you* personally don't like is *not* an illegal configuration. It's not like folks are exploiting a bug to build mechs with 500 tons of equipment even though the mech is only supposed to hold 80 tons.

Do I think certain mech and weapon combinations are too powerful relative to other possible setups? Yes, I do. But I ain't gonna tell someone else that they shouldn't build their mech a certain way, because by the construction rules of TT those are legit builds. It's up to PGI to balance things.

Edited by YueFei, 10 May 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#51 YueFei

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:42 AM

View PostEast Indy, on 10 May 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

I don't think there's a PvP game that's never been reduced to narrow, ultra-prescriptive definitions of acceptable play by people who just want to win.

The majority of people don't play like that — even the ones copying cookie-cutter builds — so as long as you avoid league-style games, and maintain a modest win-loss record, you shouldn't see it often at all.


Rock/Paper/Scissors has no dominant move. Whatever "meta" you develop against a familiar opponent only works against that particular opponent because you've sussed out his tendencies. But all 3 moves are equally powerful in that game.

#52 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:43 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 10 May 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

If your door lock was faulty and i took advantage of that to go into your house and steal everything you have...are you going to blame me or whatever caused your lock to be faulty? I can tell you that the law would definately hold me liable.
Yes. I am going to blame you. The broken lock did not decide to steal my things, Your did.

In a game where the objective is to kill the other guy... what do you think the right choice is?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 May 2014 - 09:44 AM.


#53 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:04 PM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 10 May 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here is something interesting. NoGutsNoGalaxy put up three new videos on YouTube yesterday that have three rounds of high meta clan vs clan play on them. Over the course of the three videos you will see that EVERY SINGLE MECH had jump jets. All twenty-four of them. Not only that, but all three matches were completely devoid of LRMs. It was all PPC, Autocannons and Lasers.

Not sure exactly what that says about game balance as it stands now, but Paul did state in one of their Ask the Devs videos that game balance was really, really close!

I guess this is the game they were thinking of when they started.


We (myself included) will likely be in thier new videos, because we dropped against them and what you described is EXACTLY the scenario that played out, on Alpine no less, my most hated map. By the end we were trying to appeal to thier sense of sportsmanship by saying things along the lines of "seriously guys are we just going to sit there and stare at eachother till the timer runs out?" I'd like to commend Gyrok for keeping everyone in voice clam because there were several of us who wanted to just walk off the edge of the map rather than indulge such a grotesque pissing contest. Eventually he got fed up too and said screw it, lets just push and get this over with.

Now onto the subject matter of my irrationalty, and I do agree condemning an entire game over players who wish to exploit the ugliest aspects of it is a tad silly when I can just avoid 12s and never drop in them. For that I'd like to apologize. Before you start to suspect someone at PGI wrote this post for me, I assure you they did not. It's a beautiful day and while doing yard work I had some time to reflect. Now why the hell am I thinking about a stupid video game while enjoying fresh air and sunshine? Because for the past month I've been having a blast soloing with the occasional 4 man here and there. Last night everyone wanted to do 12s and when in Rome... and admittedly there were two whole matches where the meta didn't reat its ugly head and I actually had fun playing rear guard squishing lights.

This is a selfish thread, about my personal mindset of putting fun over winning. What I'm agonizing over is while my clan doesn't need me, we all appreciate each other to the point I feel if I want to continue with them and this game I'd practically be forced to do 12s again at some point, and that's not going to happen for a long lonnnnnnnnng time. Last night even turned me off to the notion of Stock 12s, because stock mechs aren't going to fix that problem no matter how fun the concept sounds. This is about players like myself, who have been exposed to the worst of the worst in terms of what their concept of mech combat should be, and the harsh reality this game is beyond repair. I was having an Obi Wan Kenobi moment where he screams at PGi saying "NOOOOOOOO YOU WERE SUPPOSE TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE." and I truly wish everyone else the best of luck.

Players like me who just want to relax and have some fun need to walk far away from MWO in any competitive fashion. It's no wonder the game's population is so small, because most of us have already.

Cheers

#54 Eglar

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 10 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yeah, I did, Eglar... which plays more into my point. Very specific Mechs on both sides. Cataphract 3Ds, Dragon Slayers and Jenners pop to mind... no pun intended.

Instead of that one-sided slaughter on NGNG, I'm gonna drop you videos of two equally skilled teams playing each other (MRBC Finals):
Spoiler

You'll notice slight variations in "prefered mechs" you'll notice, Spiders, Highlanders (after the JJ nerf) and Orions. House of Lords exclusively uses Embers instead of Jenners most of the times. Funny thing is that most people could not tell why and for what reason certain variants are being used.

That being said, preferred competitive mechs are no big secret:
Mavrick's Mech Tier List

#55 Zerberus

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:36 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 10 May 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Doubled armor would never have been necessary had weapons not been doing 3 times their damage. Along with 3 times their heat.


Agreed.. but you do hopefully understand that the reason that they were doing 3x damage was that firing once every ten seconds makes for a really ******* boring FPS game, right? :)

#56 wanderer

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:53 PM

View PostEglar, on 10 May 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Instead of that one-sided slaughter on NGNG, I'm gonna drop you videos of two equally skilled teams playing each other (MRBC Finals):
Spoiler

You'll notice slight variations in "prefered mechs" you'll notice, Spiders, Highlanders (after the JJ nerf) and Orions. House of Lords exclusively uses Embers instead of Jenners most of the times. Funny thing is that most people could not tell why and for what reason certain variants are being used.

That being said, preferred competitive mechs are no big secret:
Mavrick's Mech Tier List


That's the old one, current listing being
http://mwomercs.com/...mech-tier-list/

#57 Flaming oblivion

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:35 PM

You know the more I read about the high elo game the less I want to improve, I don't want to get to a point where i'm fighting on the same maps with the same loadout repeatedly because it's the only option , To me if I was helping cause that I'd have to ask myself if I was worth the oxygen I was breathing , And I'd hold all others causing such events in the same reguard, And the competitive groups / clans whatever that think there great and the top of there game earn no respect from me, If they've had to exploit the games broken mechanics and turn it into the same **** twitch reflex every battle to compete they aren't good ......

#58 Roland

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:32 PM

Quote

Sirlin's playing to win only applies to competitive games. MWO is not a competitive game by any stretch of the imagination.

Then why are you constantly complaining about how you lose?

Here's the way it works folks:
If you don't want to play to win, then be prepared to lose and don't cry about it.

Some of you people want to win, but don't want to actually better yourselves as players. Sorry, but you deserve to lose. Play better.

If you don't actually care about winning, as you claim, then shut up.

#59 GreyGriffin

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:45 PM

The play-to-win mentality is a strangely nihilistic perspective. Adopting winning strategies is the way to win, yes, but most players want there to be more than one winning strategy. Fact of the matter is that adjusting a single style of play that hinges on a mechanical gameplay flaw is much easier and much more likely to result in diverse gameplay than applying a swathe of changes that will probably adversely affect other forms of gameplay.

For instance - increasing jump heat will hurt jump brawlers WAY more than it will hurt jump snipers.

#60 Roland

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:55 PM

View PostGreyGriffin, on 10 May 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

The play-to-win mentality is a strangely nihilistic perspective. Adopting winning strategies is the way to win, yes, but most players want there to be more than one winning strategy.

Most competitive players want that too.
But wanting other weapons to be better doesn't make them better. It doesn't mean they should be used.

If you want other weapons to be good, then complain to PGI for not making it so.. Don't complain about competitive players only choosing to use competitive weapons.





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