91 replies to this topic

[Melissia]

UncleKulikov, on 17 November 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

Even so, if side A has a set of tools, and side B has a different set of tools, they cannot be perfectly balanced because A has some things that B doesn't. Which makes it inherently unbalanced, even though that imbalance can be small.

I hate you for making me do this, but I must bring up Starcraft (for however much it bores me) as a counterpoint, of a game tha is balanced despite not having identical factions.

[Wil Scarlet]

Definately wanna see it restricted by house. Not impossible to get but hard as hell, and difficult to maintain as well. It also creates some interesting issues when the clans show up... weren't they restricited to weight classes depending on their honor system/rules?

[Melissia]

Basically yeah. Though I imagine until IS/C tech is developed, clanners will probably end up being mostly PvE enemies, simply because of how strong the tech differences are.

[Kudzu]

UncleKulikov, on 17 November 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

I should qualify: I have absolutely NO idea which houses have which mechs.

Even so, if side A has a set of tools, and side B has a different set of tools, they cannot be perfectly balanced because A has some things that B doesn't. Which makes it inherently unbalanced, even though that imbalance can be small.

And B will have something A doesn't, which bring the balance back in line while adding flavor. Maybe CC specializes more in information warfare but is weaken in assault, LC specializes more in assault but is weaker in information warfare, and is FS is blended between the two-- not as strong in any area but not as weak either.

Quote

And would only players of a single house be on the same team? That would seem odd, fracturing the player base. If not, then if any house pilot could team with any other house pilot, why would there be a restriction?

If by fracturing the playerbase you mean fighting for a side... then the game is doing what it's supposed to. You fight for your house and not for just yourself.

Quote

That's a lot of requirement just to get a mech that you need. I'm not convinced that these restrictions would improve gameplay at all, let alone enough to warrant a potential balance issue.

If you do it right it works out just fine and actually makes things more interesting.

[Captain Fabulous]

Mechs of your faction should be cheaper to purchase, not necessarily exclusive to the faction. If you're on another faction's planet, you should be able to salvage for mechs of said faction.

Edit: Basically how the tabletop system works. I think it'd translate well into MW.

Edited by Captain Fabulous, 17 November 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[DocBach]

I like the idea of a discount for your faction 'Mechs, maybe just make a certain iconic 'Mech available to each faction as incentive to join a faction or something. Some factions have better 'Mechs than others, and forcing them to use their junk (sorry Davion, but the JagerMech and Dervish are garbage) could make things unbalanced.

On the otherhand, by making everything available to everyone, you run the risk of everyone in the Inner Sphere just using whatever has the best stats - you'll get the same "Fire Javelin/Blackjack/Catapult/Banshee" lances you had in MPBT.

[Grayson Pryde]

Yep please make faction "unique" mechs like the dragon. I would like to see them much harder to get for the other factions. Maybe through special "missions" or as a special "reward" for a camapign-like game. But dont lock them just to the factions cause <ou can see in the "favorite" mech threads that many mechs there are "House-specific" mechs. Just make them harder to archieve.

[UncleKulikov]

Kudzu, on 17 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

And B will have something A doesn't, which bring the balance back in line while adding flavor. Maybe CC specializes more in information warfare but is weaken in assault, LC specializes more in assault but is weaker in information warfare, and is FS is blended between the two-- not as strong in any area but not as weak either.

And if that's balanced correctly, there won't be a problem. However, that is really difficult, and if done wrong, will negatively affect the experience significantly, for tiny gain.

Quote

If by fracturing the playerbase you mean fighting for a side... then the game is doing what it's supposed to. You fight for your house and not for just yourself.

By fracturing the player base, I mean that if players can only find games with members of their house, then the house with the lowest population could have trouble finding games if they can't fill full teams. This kind of thing happened in Halo, where players divided into lots of playlists had issues joining games due to a lack of team mates.

Quote

If you do it right it works out just fine and actually makes things more interesting.

Oh definitely, if it's perfectly balanced then it adds flavor and interesting differences between factions. I'm saying it's going to be really hard to perfectly balance, and if it isn't, then a nice feature will make the game worse.

[Dayuhan]

The 'mechs internally will generally be cheaper (for that faction) and replacement parts will also be cheaper. If you get a 'mech that is only produced in another faction then the purchase of the 'mech and its replacement parts will be more expensive - with purchases from enemy factions being very expensive as they will be black market material.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Maybe something like this

House
In faction -10% purchase -10% repair
out of faction/wide availability normal costs
Opposing factions +20% purchase +20% repair

Mercs
Current employer -5% repair/purchase
wide availability normal cost
Opposing current employer +5% purchase/repair

Houses get bigger discounts, but bigger penalties for using the wrong gear. Mercs can use more or less what they want, but pay more/less depending on where they are.

[Kudzu]

UncleKulikov, on 17 November 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

And if that's balanced correctly, there won't be a problem. However, that is really difficult, and if done wrong, will negatively affect the experience significantly, for tiny gain.

That's what a solid beta test is for.

Quote

By fracturing the player base, I mean that if players can only find games with members of their house, then the house with the lowest population could have trouble finding games if they can't fill full teams. This kind of thing happened in Halo, where players divided into lots of playlists had issues joining games due to a lack of team mates.

For random deathmatch games it might not matter (or they could do House A and B mixed on one side vs House C and D on the other), but for conquer games it needs to be one faction per side only (unless they do something awesome like 3+ way games).

Quote

Oh definitely, if it's perfectly balanced then it adds flavor and interesting differences between factions. I'm saying it's going to be really hard to perfectly balance, and if it isn't, then a nice feature will make the game worse.

It's worth it to try at least, worst comes to worst they just release everything into the market.

[Karn Evil]

As with so many things, I think the best answer is somewhere in the middle. Cappie players should basically be able to drive a Hatamoto-Chi into a volcano, then stagger back home and get a new one if they have the money for it, but if they want a Dragon, they should have to jump through a very impressive number of hoops for it.

[Karyudo ds]

While I like factions having their own mechs I do think around the boarder regions there should be salvage. If not from the matches specifically maybe just simulated and random selection of available mechs to buy...however they do this.

[Karyudo ds]

I don't think you should be forced, but I do think that it would give the factions character if a Davion pilot getting a Raven took slightly more effort than going to the Mech-e-mart down the street. If equipment is the same across the board it sort of kills some of the factions characterization... on the other hand then by this logic Steiner pilots would practically be the guys getting free Atlas's.

[Joker Two]

Limit "starting options" to faction-specific designs, with maybe one or two random designs on the black market for mercs. Once inter-House battles get going, if a specific planet with a Battlemech factory is captured, that factory's production goes to the new owner, so you can get access to more designs. Designs not produced for your faction should only be available as salvage or (rarely) on the black market (mercs only).

Allow salvage, but only if you defeat a 'Mech in a way in which it could feasibly be salvaged (blowing off a leg, cockpit shot, still shut down or pilot KO'ed when game ends). Also, only the side who remains in control of the battlefield at the end of the game to salvage (this is not necessarily the winners, ie. a hit & run mission where the attackers destroy their objective then flee)

[Semyon Drakon]

I'd say yes, there are numerous 'faction specific' designs scattered around the Inner Sphere. 300 years of warfare will do that. Over time though those designs get scarcer as parts fail, or they become modified until they are quite different to the original specs.

I'd say that repairing them should become more expensive the older the design and initial purchase price should be commensurately higher.

[Melissia]

J Echo, on 17 November 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

Also, the poll results are misleading--since there are many "yes" and few "no," it gives the impression that most people want faction-exclusive mechs--but if you factor in all of the "sort of" votes, and read through the thread, the yes and no appears to be roughly half and half.

No it isn't. Many of the "sort of" answers agreed that there should be a limitation, but merely disagreed on what KIND of limitation. That's what "sort of" represents. Very few people argued that there should be no limitations whatsoever, the main debate is about how much.

Edited by Melissia, 18 November 2011 - 08:05 AM.

[sgtmack]

I agree the house specific mechs should be cheaper/easier to get. But as a merc, if I want to pay for another design, I should be able to. As long as I understand it will cost more/ take longer to repair.

I'm guessing I will have to start with a house specific ride, then earn enough to trade it off as I earn credits.
Small details like these are what will make this game more than BF3 with robots. I hope.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Sort of.
Theoretically speaking, almost every 'mech can be seen in use by each house.
In practice, each house tends to prefer certain models.
So the preferred 'mechs would probably be easier to acquire than non-preferred 'mechs.
Mediums in the DCMS? Good luck getting it.

Quote

Makes sense to not be buying your lance of Panthers from the Marik Mech factories

And pretty damn impressive if you did.
The only factories producing the Panther are all in the (former) DC, since New Oslo was given to the FRR.
The other factories are on Alshain, Tok Do, and New Samarkand. (No wonder that there's so many of them in the DCMS.)

[Stahlseele]

If you are a HOUSE-Warrior, only HOUSE-Mechs for you. Untill you climb the ladder high enough to claim salvage yourself . .
If you are an MERC-Warrior, only HOUSE-Mechs for cheap if you are employed by them. You CAN get other Mechs, but they SHOULD cost an Arm and a Leg MORE than usually . .