34 replies to this topic

[Modo44]

Gauss returning is really not about macros. You can learn to reliably draw it while going up, and then train to aim+let go fast enough for relatively shallow jumps (the latter part has a very high skill ceiling, I am certainly not there). Also, you can still fire PPCs immediately for snapshots. Gauss is also better syncing with PPCs plus it brings less heat and weight than dual (U)AC5.

Edited by Modo44, 16 May 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Victor, whats so wrong about it?! By far the best mech in this game.

[FlipOver]

Koniving, on 16 May 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

[...]about the twist nerf but it's a nerf to brawling because the mech does it too good.

Not to ignore all your words but this is exactly what I am against.
In other words, I understand it was too good at brawling but the nerf was too big. Now it really feels like it's too stiff, making it a much worst brawler than a Battlemaster, Banshee and Stalker due to the too big nerf. And those are more armored and heavy, so as soon as this nerf happened all I saw was a 'Mech made for pop-tarting, and I really really really don't like to play that game.
Hence why I agree with the OP, Victors were unbelievably good, now they are "not-bad" in some specific points except for jump-sniping.

[The Schwartz]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Victor. It's not that it's a bad mech because it isn't. But, for brawling I'd rather have a ddc. Yes there's ways to jump jet to use leg armor to absorb damage and that's pretty cool. But, set up as a brawler.. it feels like a gimped atlas. For jump sniping, I'd rather use a phract 3D as it feels (to me) more nimble and easier to move from one position to another. For a slow jump sniper, I like the highlander better. But, the victor is less niche which is nice. The ac/20 on the arm is brutal once you get used to how it shoots off the arm. It's not personally a favorite of mine (doesn't need to be) but, it's far from being a bad mech.

As far as a new player mech, it's pretty good. Versitile chasis. Where I think some of your problem come from is until the elites and 2x basics are unlocked ALL of the assualts are sloths that hate living. Those elite effeciencies are essential for (well pretty much everything) but, assaults especially.

One of the building tips I think can be helpful is put the guns you want on it minus the engine. Then look to see what engines will fit with the build. If they're excessively slow engines you can tweak the loadout until you reach a compromise between the firepower and agility(or lack thereof.) Also, hit the training grounds and get used to those arm slots, the weapon conversion can really mess with ya with those wide arms at first.

[juxstapo]

The twist thing does make me want to QQ because I mastered all four Victors as brawlers and don't care to change them to any other role. That said I still can't call the chassis "terrible" because in the hands of those skilled at what it is now meta-rated for it performs fine.

I miss my AC/20-toting Ninja-Vic's though.

[Sarlic]

Koniving, on 16 May 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

While possible, there is an on-going thread called "unnerf the victor" or somesuch. It's about a week old and keeps popping up on the general discussion. Recruits can't post there, but they can read it as easily as anyone can.
Combine this with how the champion victor makes a mockery out of the meta loadout to make it look bad, and there you have it a frustrated newbie who popped on and saw it.

I had a disgustingly long debate back and forth, as the original poster in that thread was complaining about how slow the turning is.. when it turns almost as fast a Shadowhawk. Then got attacked, but the other person was talking the entire time about twist speeds while I was talking about turn speeds and it got kinda stupid and ugly. Ironically I never disagreed with him about the twist nerf but it's a nerf to brawling because the mech does it too good.

And why does it brawl so good?

Its hitbox hasn't changed much if it ever did at all. See the 'angles' of the side torsos? Very easy to spread damage by twisting, allowing you to pull off Stalker Tanker Syndrome without the 50% damage reduction to CT from losing the STs.


Somehow seems unlikely. Can't even fire some weapons while its charging. But hey more power to them and the macros overcoming the charging mechanic have been spreading like wildfire. Its probably in preparation for the oncoming Clan ER PPCs + Clan Gauss stuff. But Gauss doing 45 damage in over 10 seconds, while Clan ER PPCs does 45 in 8...it seems rather silly aside from the insane heat from the ER PPCs; but that's what is supposed to govern them.

Well said. Exactly. Then people come up: "Look at my math!!!!!???!!." Their variables is based on equipment. Not on JJ, hitboxes and more. Victor is fine as it is.

The Victor can be real good if its piloted well by a good pilot and knows what their strenght and weakness are. It can be a beast. Even in brawling. .

Edited by Sarlic, 16 May 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Koniving]

FlipOver, on 16 May 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

[/size]
Not to ignore all your words but this is exactly what I am against.
In other words, I understand it was too good at brawling but the nerf was too big. Now it really feels like it's too stiff, making it a much worst brawler than a Battlemaster, Banshee and Stalker due to the too big nerf. And those are more armored and heavy, so as soon as this nerf happened all I saw was a 'Mech made for pop-tarting, and I really really really don't like to play that game.
Hence why I agree with the OP, Victors were unbelievably good, now they are "not-bad" in some specific points except for jump-sniping.

I agree. I view it as a temporary nerf until PGI actually gets back to the hitbox overhaul project, which it abandoned late November early December with the statement: "The man responsible for it went on vacation." It hasn't been picked up since. And now PGI's majorly busy with other things that won't allow it to continue until the Clan Mechs are released.

Problem is if they fix the hitboxes on existing mechs after the Clan mech release, then we'll have a huge nerf/buff clusterduck until it settles. Where if done before, much of the buff/nerf fiasco will be much more elegant and reasonable.

[FlipOver]

Koniving, on 16 May 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

I agree. I view it as a temporary nerf until PGI actually gets back to the hitbox overhaul project, which it abandoned late November early December with the statement: "The man responsible for it went on vacation." It hasn't been picked up since. And now PGI's majorly busy with other things that won't allow it to continue until the Clan Mechs are released.

Problem is if they fix the hitboxes on existing mechs after the Clan mech release, then we'll have a huge nerf/buff clusterduck until it settles. Where if done before, much of the buff/nerf fiasco will be much more elegant and reasonable.

Just letting you know I feel exactly the same way about this.
And I have been on the fence about buying 'Mechs because I "know" they will go forward with the hitbox overhaul after the Clans and it will mess up the game for quite a while.
Sad, but unfortunately, most likely to happen.

[1453 R]

I loved my Victors pre-nerf. I’m also one of those insane twits who ran right out and bought a 385XL engine to put in them because the thought of getting an 80-ton flying AC/20 going over 85 klicks was the reason I bought into Victors in the first place. My favorite VTR set-up is basically a BJ-1©, except with a suite of extra Streak launchers and also double the armor. When it worked, it was glorious.

I can still make it work in the low-end Puglandia Elo I play in, because a 385-rated engine goes a long way towards counteracting the Atlas-speed twisting nerfs…but as I said in the VTR Nerf thread Koniving mentioned, a lot of the magic has gone out of the chassis. In higher-level play the Victor is no longer a viable brawler/striker, not the way it used to be. The Victor was always meant to be the biggest, nastiest, most freakishly agile strike-brawler in the game. The anti-brawling nerfs baffled me tremendously – why force the ‘Mech into the role your player base is desperately hoping/trying to get away from?

I’d also recommend that new players stay away from the ‘Mech for a while. Not because it’s terrible, or unworkable, or anything like that…but because it was actively painful to grind through efficiencies for them when I had the money to readily upgrade them, other mastered ‘Mechs to take a break with, and when they didn’t maneuver like Fatlases trying to diet. Without Tweak and doubled basics, which is not something a new player can readily toss off whenever…well, I don’t think I’d be able to make my Victors work anymore.

[Koniving]

Sarlic, on 16 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

The Victor can be real good if its piloted well by a good pilot and knows what their strenght and weakness are. It can be a beast. Even in brawling. .

If you take the current twist rates, post elites, that's where I feel the Victor should be if we completely removed the skill system entirely. And honestly the skill system is a load of crap. 8.8% increases were at the height of reasonable. It started with 2.2% increases.

But now, Kinetic Burst after reaching the 'Master' unlock (without even getting it) gives you 55% faster acceleration.
A brand new heavy accelerates like a mastered Atlas. A brand new medium accelerates like a mastered heavy. A brand new light accelerates like a mastered medium. A mastered light defies physics.

And people wonder why things are so 'overpowered'.
I miss the days when it was safe for a Dragon to go 81 kph.
When it was normal to go 64.8 kph in a medium mech and still tank shots like MWO's current Atlas.
Now they strip in single shots and perish even while going over 90.

For comparison... No skill trees, repair and rearm. Back when Flamers did something.

Early 'youtube' so yeah.. Music's too loud but made for good background.

Much later. Both mechs are fighting on the day of the Fang/Flame release and so no one's got any major 'pilot skills' unlocked for them yet. Default versus customized during delayed convergence and the brand new heat system which eventually leads to the 6 ER PPC Stalker clusterduck. This is when it was balanced very good, and later balanced very badly (because players complained about how devastating it was to be too hot).

Notice the agility or lack there-of? I miss that. A lot.

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[Hillslam]

The Victors have been hobbled into a one trick pony meta-mechonly: the jump sniper in comp play.

Brawl in one and you're giving up a lot of advantages. The Victor is no longer an All Rounder.

Is It dominant? Yes. Is that because it was already owned by a lot of players and the nerfing did not take away jump snipe? YEP.


Is the Victor, post-nerf, the best assault? NO. Not by a long shot. Don't mistake population for best design.

[1453 R]

Koniving, on 16 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

If you take the current twist rates, post elites, that's where I feel the Victor should be if we completely removed the skill system entirely. And honestly the skill system is a load of crap. 8.8% increases were at the height of reasonable. It started with 2.2% increases.

But now, Kinetic Burst after reaching the 'Master' unlock (without even getting it) gives you 55% faster acceleration.

A brand new heavy accelerates like a mastered Atlas. A brand new medium accelerates like a mastered heavy. A brand new light accelerates like a mastered medium. A mastered light defies physics.

And people wonder why things are so 'overpowered'.
I miss the days when it was safe for a Dragon to go 81 kph.
When it was normal to go 64.8 kph in a medium mech and still tank shots like MWO's current Atlas.
Now they strip in single shots and perish even while going over 90.

Ye know, I could see that. I’ve thought for a while now that the bonuses you get from mastering a ‘Mech were kinda ludicrous. The skill system, as it stands, is more of a time grind/tax on a new ‘Mech than anything else, even more so/worse than DHS is.

Let the Victor keep its agility – that’s what sets it apart. And yeah…the more I think about it, the more I wish that maximum armor was based off of stock armor rather than chassis tonnage. A VTR-9S with a maximum armor cap of 125% of stock armor totals goes up to 420 armor – which is slightly higher than the current maximum for a sixty-ton ‘Mech. It’s a good chunk, enough to get on with, but nowhere near the 494 it’s got right now.

Whereas an AWS-8Q with the same 125% of stock armor bonus goes up to 600 maximum armor. The same level as the current Atlas. Your astounding fatness and complete lack of anything resembling agility is compensated for by being able to sink a full quarter of your tonnage into plating – and things like the AWS-9M, which can take that 385XL engine out of my Victors and still carry 617 points of armor? Yeah, who cares that all it brings to the table are a couple of LPLs and some backup mediums/SSRM-2s? It’s twenty tons of armor moving at rates a medium ‘Mech would envy! Dear GOD, if/when collisions come back into the game…!

There’s a much more effective way of bringing the Awesome back than dealing with sized hardpoint tomfoolery, I say.

EDIT:: Hell, even Pretty Baby becomes a desirable ‘Mech (for some lunatics)!

Because you can do things like THIS with it. Note that the three free tons are a hundred-plus extra points of armor that this theoretical 125% stock armor rating PB would be able to mount. Very nearly 600 points of armor, moving 89.1 klicks an hour with a pair of large pulse lasers, a medium laser, and fourteen SRMs ready to go.

That sort of capability would get me into Awesomes. I would buy this, name it Runaway Train, and people would hear the air horns in their heads whether they wanted to or not when they see it barreling down at them faster than a stock Shadow Hawk.

Edited by 1453 R, 16 May 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Koniving]

1453 R, on 16 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

There’s a much more effective way of bringing the Awesome back than dealing with sized hardpoint tomfoolery, I say.

Indeed. Now, in past debates I've proven a point about percentages. If you give 'percentages' you completely alienate everything that isn't an assault mech, as a Locust goes up to 160, but as you said an Awesome goes up to 600.

Instead, we (those of us working on a similar project) chose specific tonnage and with the wording, allows for Ferro to mean something.

Spoiler

Try this rule for fun: Variant stock armor tonnage + set tonnage = new max armor tonnage.
Note the word tonnage. Example, if the Raven 2X has 6.5 tons of armor stock and you set the new limit of 2 tons more, that's the new max.
But why is tonnage important? Consider this: Ferro fibrous armor is lighter. Therefore in exchange for your 14 slots you can get equal armor for lighter, or you can get equal weight in armor for more protection.

Still, it's like taking stock and moving the slider on all mechs over by x amount.

So. Lets take a Spider and an Urbanmech.

A Spider has 112 points standard armor.
An Urbanmech has 6 tons of armor, which * 32 is 192 points of armor (the same as a Jagermech S; who also has 6 tons of armor, proving the math works).

Both mechs have identical structure values which is 210 / 2 + 6 (the 6 is the extra points to the cockpit to prevent 1 shot headshots with twin Gauss Rifles and/or twin Clan ER PPCs). That's 111 points of health beneath the armor.

Now for comparison:
The difference between an Urbanmech and a Spider is 192 - 112 = 80 points of armor difference.
The total difference between the two is (192 + 111) - (112 + 111) = 80 points of total armor and health.
That's akin to tabletop, where the actual difference is structure - 6 and everything above divided by 2. (40 points difference in TT).

If we maintain that 80 points difference, we maintain lore's intention. By maintaining the intention we maintain what the mechs were meant to be good for as best as we can do without changing the weapon systems away from what PGI did to them.

Lets set your percentage of 125%.
Spider: 112 + 25% more = 140.
Urbanmech: 192 + 25% more = 240.

We know if we tack in the structure health the result will be the same, so using just the armor here. 240 - 140 = 100. Something got screwed up here.

Lets take a quick look at the Muromets and the Cataphract 3D.
Muromets is 13.5 tons of armor at 432 and the 3D is one of the weakest Cataphracts in armor at 11 tons of armor at 352.
Difference: 432 - 352 = 80 (...not intentional but comical).
Also note the tonnage difference. 13.5 - 11 = 2.5 tons difference.
125% given to both.
Muromets: 540.
Cataphract 3D: 440.
540 - 440 = 100.
Tonnage difference:
16.875 tons Muro versus 13.75 tons 3D.
Basically you made it so neither mech can ever use full armor and basically in comparison the 3D is worthless next to the fairly armored Muromets.

But lets jump back to the Spider/Urbanmech comparison.
Lets take this rule and use it instead: Variant stock armor tonnage + set tonnage = new max armor tonnage.
Our set tonnage here is 2 tons additional. Slapped to all mechs across the board. See the Note below before you freak out.

The Spider with 112 armor at 32 points per ton, that's 3.5 tons of armor (less than Locust). + 2 tons is 5.5 tons = 176 points standard armor. With ferro that's 5.5 tons at 36 points per ton (we had to round out Ferro to the nearest point) = 198 points of armor Ferro.
The Urbanmech with 192 armor at 32 points per ton, that's 6 tons of armor (equal to a JM6-S). + 2 tons is 8 tons = 256 points standard armor. With ferro that's 8 tons at 36 points per ton (we had to round out Ferro to the nearest point) = 288 points of armor Ferro.

Now lets study. The difference stock is 80 points of armor.
What about now?
Standard versus standard armor: 256 Urban - 176 Spider = 80. Match!
Ferro versus ferro armor: 288 Urban - 198 Spider = 90. Not quite a match, but it was a rounded percentage.
The tonnage difference between them is 8 - 5.5 or 6 - 3.5 = 2.5 tons.

Now if you take the any ton or half ton armor amount for both mechs while maintaining the 2.5 ton difference between them and multiply it by 36, you'll always have a 90 points armor difference in Ferro between the two. Multiply it by 32 and it'll always be an 80 point difference between the two in standard.

Note: While this can give lights a sizeable 'buff' while Assaults may feel pitiful, the assaults can max out with incredible ease but the lights have to sacrifice a lot to fully use it. The sacrifice gets larger and larger as the mech gets smaller and smaller. As an example, a Locust will have a harder time fitting on two more tons of armor than a Jenner. A Raven 2X will have a harder time fitting it on than a Shadowhawk 2D2, despite how the SHK 2d2 has identical armor limits.

Now, of course, it needs to be accompanied with an engine limit overhaul. The Cicada is supposed to have identical speeds to a Locust and superior speeds over a Jenner, Commando and Raven. This helps offset the fact that it has equal or lower armor to a Locust (though admittedly it'd have an easier time carrying said armor).

Anyway, TL;DR: Percentages screw up everything. Stick to arbitrary solid numbers.

(Here's my personal question:
After this change, if it ever happens, I wonder how many Atlases will make Ferro part of their armor set? 19 tons + 2 tons at Ferro = 756 points of armor at the lost of 14 slots meaning probably no AC/20 or PPCs, so what would they do? Really, what's the meta solution then? Then take in that for the invisibility Atlas D-DCs enjoy, they can't use Ferro armor for that buff. Why? Because they need Stealth Armor to be 'invisible' to sensors with ECM and that takes 12 slots.

Incidentally this balances out the Atlases and makes them valuable for different reasons. D-DC for the invisibility, at the high cost of stealth armor and 12 slots or the other Atlases at either high firepower standard armor, or low firepower high protection Ferro armor. But hey, that's a minute of balancing with Koniving.)

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[1453 R]

Yeah, I've seen the arguments for a fixed additional tonnage before. My only real issue with it is that then you get absolutely silly crap like Jenners with (potentially) 10+ tons of armor, and the mentioned thing where assault ‘Mechs basically see no difference in their effective loadouts. Fatbros have enough issues with catching more fire than even they can take as it is. Yeah, the Jenners would be stuck on lowball engines and small lasers to do it, but somehow, I just don’t want to shoot at a Jenner with 370+ armor. I just don’t want to do it, man!

25% extra armor tonnage might be too much. Was just a relatively simple figure I plucked out of the ethers for purposes of demonstration, but I’m still thinking that it would probably live up to the spirit of things better. After all, if someone wants to sacrifice speed/firepower for all manner of excessive armor in their Atlas, I feel they should be allowed to make that choice. Up until it bites them in the Frodo and they realize they do need more than thirty LRM tubes and a medium laser to fight with >_>

[Crotch RockIt]

BUY A VICTOR! THEY GET THE SPOILS!