54 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Honestly, clusters don't need extra damage. The LB-X would have been just fine if they'd given it the solid shot it was supposed to have from day 1- but instead, like a lot of the game, they installed the weapon halfway and left it that way to fix later.

I mean, an AC/10. Is that seriously underpowered? No. A fully functional LB-10X is a better AC/10 (right now, but as noted above can be balanced just fine) that ALSO fires cluster ammo.

Half an LB-X is underpowered. A functional (and no, half a gun's function is not) one is a proper piece of work.

[FupDup]

wanderer, on 19 May 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

Honestly, clusters don't need extra damage. The LB-X would have been just fine if they'd given it the solid shot it was supposed to have from day 1- but instead, like a lot of the game, they installed the weapon halfway and left it that way to fix later.

I mean, an AC/10. Is that seriously underpowered? No. A fully functional LB-10X is a better AC/10 (right now, but as noted above can be balanced just fine) that ALSO fires cluster ammo.

Half an LB-X is underpowered. A functional (and no, half a gun's function is not) one is a proper piece of work.

Here's the thing...who would actually equip cluster rounds if they had the ability to just use slugs all day erryday? Current clusters are only really okay if you get really really close to people, and even then a slug has almost the same performance. You probably have to buff the clusters somehow if we want them to be used by smarter players.


On a side note, the current AC/10 is actually pretty sub-par. It's functional, and it can get the job done, but it's not truly a "good" (meta/tryhard) weapon by any means. Especially not since the projectile speed nerf.

[Strum Wealh]

wanderer, on 18 May 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

...being as LB-X's are smoothbore, I'd suggest putting them at the 2x effective = maximum while AC/UAC's retain the 3x ballistic maximum....

The Standard AC/2s mounted on the Mauler are also explicitly stated to be smoothbore weapons (Close Quarters by Victor Milan, ch. 35; "Lainie let the little smoothbore Imperator autocannon quad in her belly add to the punishment the off-balance BattleMech was taking to the torso."), and have the same general performance as all other Standard AC/2s; given the general tech level of the Inner Sphere, it would be unsurprising if it turned out that most Standard AC models had smoothbore barrels rather than rifled barrels.

Also of note is that the LB 2-X AC, also being smoothbore, still had a longer effective range than the Standard AC/2, the UAC/2, the Light AC/2, and the RAC/2; the LB 2-X is outperformed in the range department by the HVAC/2 (where the performance difference is (according to page 285 of TacOps) attributed to "a special gelled shell propellant" used by the HVACs... which produces a lot of heavy smoke when it does work and has an unfortunate tendency to catastrophically explode inside the weapon's barrel with alarming frequency ).

That said, +1 for a slower ROF (though, the question becomes "how much slower is appropriate?") and sharper damage fall-off for LB-X ACs (IMO, it should go to 0 at max range for LB-X slugs** (and Gauss Rifle slugs, as well) and ~25% for Standard AC shells (e.g. AC/2 shells would still deliver 0.5 units of damage at max range, while AC/20 shells would still deliver 5.0 units of damage at max range), to represent the presence of explosive warheads for the shells (or absence of such warheads for the slugs)), in exchange for the ability for all LB-X ACs (Clan and IS alike) to be able to fire both slugs & cluster rounds.

(**Canonically, LB-X "slug" rounds are not actually solid slugs, but warhead-equipped shells; the "slug" terminology is likely used to emphasize the point of their role being analogous to that of shotgun slugs versus the shotshell-like LB-X cluster rounds, and to play up the role of the LB-X ACs in general as "anti-BattleMech shotguns".)

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 19 May 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Here's the thing...who would actually equip cluster rounds if they had the ability to just use slugs all day erryday? Current clusters are only really okay if you get really really close to people, and even then a slug has almost the same performance. You probably have to buff the clusters somehow if we want them to be used by smarter players.


On a side note, the current AC/10 is actually pretty sub-par. It's functional, and it can get the job done, but it's not truly a "good" (meta/tryhard) weapon by any means. Especially not since the projectile speed nerf.

The way to counter people taking only slugs (which would also work for the IS versions, as well) is forced munition mixing for the LB-X ACs - that is, every ton of LB-X ammo comes split between slug and cluster (with a bias toward the latter in the case of odd numbers).

• LB 2-X (75 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/2): 38 cluster, 37 slug
  
• LB 5-X (30 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/5): 15 cluster, 15 slug
  
• LB 10-X (15 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/10): 8 cluster, 7 slug
  
• LB 20-X (7 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/20): 4 cluster, 3 slug

There would be no need to increase the per-sumbunition damage of the cluster rounds, it ensures that having even only one ton of LB-X ammo equipped allows for the weapon's characteristic dual functionality, and it hampers abusive min-maxing without completely disallowing it (e.g. one can still being enough ammunition to have enough slugs to last through the match... but, the tradeoff is that one will also necessarily be carrying all of those cluster rounds as well, for good and for ill).

[Dago Red]

Strum Wealh, on 22 May 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

The way to counter people taking only slugs (which would also work for the IS versions, as well) is forced munition mixing for the LB-X ACs - that is, every ton of LB-X ammo comes split between slug and cluster (with a bias toward the latter in the case of odd numbers).

• LB 2-X (75 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/2): 38 cluster, 37 slug
  
• LB 5-X (30 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/5): 15 cluster, 15 slug
  
• LB 10-X (15 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/10): 8 cluster, 7 slug
  
• LB 20-X (7 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/20): 4 cluster, 3 slug

There would be no need to increase the per-sumbunition damage of the cluster rounds, it ensures that having even only one ton of LB-X ammo equipped allows for the weapon's characteristic dual functionality, and it hampers abusive min-maxing without completely disallowing it (e.g. one can still being enough ammunition to have enough slugs to last through the match... but, the tradeoff is that one will also necessarily be carrying all of those cluster rounds as well, for good and for ill).

This here solution is elegant as ****!

[Joseph Mallan]

Dago Red, on 22 May 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

This here solution is elegant as ****!

Thats a good thing right? Cause in my experience there isn't anything Elegant about ****!

[Dago Red]

There is if you do it right.

Edit: When in doubt pinky out!

Edited by Dago Red, 22 May 2014 - 06:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dago Red, on 22 May 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

There is if you do it right.

Edit: When in doubt pinky out!

[Zerberus]

AAAND as previously foretold, the whining about clan LBX having 2 ammo types making them superultramegahyperOP without having a clue about the other factors (range, heat, damage) starts just on time 4 weeks before release.

If only the cryhards weren`t so predictable, it would actually be fun playing the prophet.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 22 May 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

AAAND as previously foretold, the whining about clan LBX having 2 ammo types making them superultramegahyperOP without having a clue about the other factors (range, heat, damage) starts just on time 4 weeks before release.

If only the cryhards weren`t so predictable, it would actually be fun playing the prophet.

my complaint is We have been asking for Slugs for LB-X for a long time, But Clanners will have it out of the box?
Not cool!

[Strum Wealh]

Dago Red, on 22 May 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

This here solution is elegant as ****!

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Thats a good thing right? Cause in my experience there isn't anything Elegant about ****!

"Don't get me wrong, I admire elegance and have an appreciation of the finer things in life. But to me, beauty lies in simplicity." - Dr. Mark Hyman

[Zerberus]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

my complaint is We have been asking for Slugs for LB-X for a long time, But Clanners will have it out of the box?
Not cool!

I understand that, but I also understand that there would be no reason at all to use an AC10 anymore as an IS pilot outside of 3025 stock mode.

The clans on the other hand have no "standard" acs, only LBX and UAC. Shotgun / jam-prone UAC is a bit of a limited spectrum to choose from.... what other (realistic) option did the devs have?

The cUAC whining has been going on since December, and since they haven`t (apparently) been able to get a firm dev statement of "we will nerf cUACs into the ground just in case", they`re now turning to the cLBX series and whining about how it has to be nerfed in hopes of somehow weakening the big bad boogieman of 4 man premades ppc /AC poptarts LRM boats Clan mechs. Preferably to the point where they don´t have to do anything at all to adapt and can keep failing their way to victory.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 22 May 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

I understand that, but I also understand that there would be no reason at all to use an AC10 anymore as an IS pilot outside of 3025 stock mode.

People keep saying this like it actually matters?!

[Zerberus]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

People keep saying this like it actually matters?!

Well, TBH like most things it both does and doesn`t, depending on your viewpoint and motives, with "IT`S NOT CANON!!!!!" and "It`s just a freaking F2P computer game, not a CBT League session" usually being on opposite ends of the spectrum

Edited by Zerberus, 22 May 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 22 May 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Well, TBH it both does and doesn`t, depending on your viewpoint and motives.

I'm in the doesn't section of the audience.