79 replies to this topic

[JonahGrimm]

Buckminster, on 23 May 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

Something worth repeating. Once you're dead, stick around and watch. I like to browse through and see if I can spectate someone that is using a similar chassis to mine, so I can see their build, and see their tactics.

Do take it with a grain of salt though - sometimes the person you're spectating doesn't know what they're doing!

... complete anecdotal aside -

I run this Jenner-K with an LRM5 and lots and lots of modules. I've noticed lately that a couple of folks whose names are vaguely familiar are running a similar build. I'm all.. 'hey, this is catching on!' and get all warm-and-fuzzy, and then did something stupid, ran over a hill, and ate a face full of gauss and ppc fire from, oh, the /entire enemy team/.

Needless to say, I died in a spectacular, skid-across-the-snow way that was horribly embarrassing.

I flipped over to follow that Other Jenner... and discovered a build that confused me. Running at 98kph, with an /lrm15/ - as superficially similar as that sounds, it wasn't actually all that close to my 152kph LRM5 build... and it was terrifically fun to watch! Surprisingly effective, well-piloted, and definitely going against stereotype.

It just goes to show, watching someone else can give you great ideas. /I/ can't run that mech, but the fact that this guy could was telling.

[JonahGrimm]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 May 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

WTF is the trick to this game? I hang back a bit and kinda wander around the back lines taking random pot shots..I live a bit longer, maybe ninja a kill or 2....but accomplish a hellva lot of nothing.

Or, I try to spearhead into the battle...kinda try to be frontline-ish....and get mowed down in 2 seconds.

So far it seems, as per the typical, I cant be put on a team that even stands a chance of winning, ofc this time its partly due to me....but even then. 1/5 lol.....I manage around 200 damage when I actually can fire back.....100 or less when I cant do anything. This game really so damn hard it requires a college degree to l2p or something?

Typically games i can figure out fairly quickly...this game...naw, its wierd for sure.

I've been thinking about this, and though i need to know much more to be really useful - I /do/ have some playstyle hints for you:

- If you're going to sniper-up, you need to build for the job. Gauss rifles, especially, are great for this - paired gauss with some point defense means making large holes in enemies without really generating heat. Ideally, you want high weapon mounts or survivable chassis - this will lean you to the K2 Catapult or any of the Jager variants. (High weapon mounts make it easier to shoot over things - Catapult with ERPPC fits the bill, or the Jagers with projectile weapons). There is a Jager with high arm mount ballistic slots and missile racks - I'm not the best to ask on heavies, but that feels like a lovely sniper build to me. LRMs in the missile racks, Gauss in the guns, and blow things apart at range.

- If you're going to lead the charge, the build is actually best in a medium or light heavy. I love my Trebuchet-7k for this role, with the wierdest loadout you've seen: MG, LB10x, 2 ML, 2 SSRM2, lots of armor, AMS, and the biggest engine I can fit. With speed tweak, this thing runs ~100kph.

My favorite tactic is to run through my team, into and through their team, and then turning back on them. If it works, they'll turn their backs to my entire team's firing line, put a few shots all over me, then turn back in a panic... presenting broken rear armor to a critical-hit factory. That's how to lead the charge - with a real charge. Actual speed and in a way that drags your team along with you.

(This mech is actually the most fun I've had outside of lights. You can snuggle up with a Centurion or Hunchback and tag-team down opponents - once their armor's open, /nothing/ stands up to your firepower. I've grabbed guys from C4 and blitzed 8 or nine mechs, run completely dry in everything with ammo, and /still/ been standing. You can hide off of your gunline and wait for stragglers. You can run down lights that overextend themselves (focus on the legs and they go down /fast/, in this mech). You do not, however, have significant range - which does limit your early game. Pop up in the mid to late game with full armor, and it's /terrifying/.

Plus, it's a treb. People think you're stupid for driving one. )

The point is - you need to think through your build to focus on a strategy, on a playing methodology, that suits you. Hybridizing to three or four styles just means you really won't have any fun trying any of 'em.

One last thing - simplify your weapon mounts. See if you can build your mech to use no more than three weapon groups, and assign these to your three mouse buttons. You'll be surprised what a difference that guideline makes.

[Koniving]

Magnakanus, on 23 May 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

Dunno Koniving. Leg humping in an Ember, even from the front, tends to intimidate a lot of heavier mechs. Even more fun when they start backing up.

That close in their face some weapon systems have problems converging correctly and tend to fire over your head.

Most Firestarters to include the Ember, tend to have most of their armor channelled to the front.
I literally carry only 2 armor on my back.

Interesting facts: (FST = Front Side Torso, FCT = Front Center Torso, R/LFST = Right or Left Front Side Torso)
Firestarter: 30 FST, 42 FCT <--common for MANY firestarters
Raven: 30 FST, 36 FCT (26 FST, 30 FCT is the common norm)
Jenner: 15 FST, 42 FCT (the common norm is 20 FST and 32 through 36 FCT)
Hunchback: 46 RFST, 51 FCT (the RFST is common on "tough to kill" Hunchbacks; otherwise it's more like 38 to 40 for the common norm)
Shadowhawk: 40 FST, 61 FCT (36 to 38 FST is the common norm.)

The following are common norms only. Gotta keep some trade secrets.
Centurion: 38 FST, 50 FCT.
Trebuchet: 32 FST, 48 FCT.
Cataphract: 48 FST, 76 FCT.
Jagermech: 48 FST, 72 FCT.
Victor: 56 FST, 88 FCT
Awesome: 56 FST, 78 FCT (its not just the hitbox that does them in, people just won't channel as much to the front because they can't leap or slow down quickly to help turn around and fight something behind them).
Banshee: 68 FST, 82 to 108 FCT
Atlas: 70 to 82 FST, 80 to 122 FCT.

Interesting, isn't it?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Buckminster, on 23 May 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

A big part of it is finding your style and what works for you.

A lot of new players come in, usually with some BT knowledge, and they instantly gravitate towards the assault mechs, because heavier has to be better. Problem is that it takes A LOT of skill (and a good team) to properly pilot an assault. They are big, slow, and everyone targets them first. And even though they have better armor, that armor just doesn't last against a team that is focused on killing you.

So my question is, what mech have you been piloting? What do you like about it? What don't you like? What weapons seem to be your most effective? Have you tried the other mechs?

Typically I like to get in closer and brawl. I know in MW4 and all other Mech games like this I preferred a max armor, big mech with mid-range hammer weapons. Obviously this game has a totally different play style and getting in close isnt going to be so easy most times. I snagged a Masakari, it has 4 ERPPCs....or so Sarna says, idk what PGI will give it's prime variant.

I have been driving the Orion-1k in the trial mechs. WHat I like about it? THe AC10 and 2 LL, it has heaps of armor. What I dont like? Its not mine, and it has no ranged ability. I find myself being stuck to closer range engagements...450m is nothing in this game.

I will try the sniper with ER PPCs next month, see how I do. I will try, if at all possible on the Warhawk, to drop the LRM15, pack in more C/DHS and more armor, drop the engine speed a bit and try to make cooling efficiency as high as I can get it. I have 2 buttons on my mouse plus MMB....so having like single 1/2/3/4 to solo fire my ER PPCs wont work. I will prolly hve to 1-2 on one, 3-4 on the other, with stagger fire thrown in. Yes. I know 1-9+0 fires weapons as well, but I find that very clunky...

I wish this game ran with Joysticks better. I played MW4 gobs of times with a Nova Cat with 2 ERppc 3 ER LL, 1 gun per button, had very little issues with heat, being able to stagger fire much, much better. And that mech didnt even have heat eff to 50%....it was hovering just below half, I had maxed armor and I think the slowest speed I could get. Speed was never my idea....ofc MWO is different...no doubt.

I dont do well in Meds and Lights, im to brawly by nature. Lights seem to be absurdly good in this game though, they are like the size of Elementals in MW3 and MW2.....they just circle jerk me a fair bit of the time....whats the secret here....how do I stop them from circle jerking? I have a hellva time even seeing them, and then hitting them? lol...

Is there a graphics setting I can use to reduce the fog in game so I can see mechs better? THis entire game has this odd bloom or fog on it that makes seeing stuff hard. Mechs are just big black shadows.....on maps other then winter ones I really dont even see the mechs till the dorito pops up....HPG manifold? lol.....I looked right at dummy mechs in training and didnt see it. Mechs blend in to well in this game, thats for sure.

[Sergeant Random]

amazing thread! one of the most consistently positive that I've seen in this here forums!

[Buckminster]

LordKnightFandragon, on 23 May 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I wish this game ran with Joysticks better. I played MW4 gobs of times with a Nova Cat with 2 ERppc 3 ER LL, 1 gun per button, had very little issues with heat, being able to stagger fire much, much better. And that mech didnt even have heat eff to 50%....it was hovering just below half, I had maxed armor and I think the slowest speed I could get. Speed was never my idea....ofc MWO is different...no doubt.

I run joystick and mouse, and I love it. You really need mouse aiming, but it's very easy to bind your joystick to analog throttle and analog turning, and use it for your movement controls. I doubt I'd still be playing if I couldn't use the joystick - I think analog movement controls are what separates MWO from most other FPSs.

LordKnightFandragon, on 23 May 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I dont do well in Meds and Lights, im to brawly by nature. Lights seem to be absurdly good in this game though, they are like the size of Elementals in MW3 and MW2.....they just circle jerk me a fair bit of the time....whats the secret here....how do I stop them from circle jerking? I have a hellva time even seeing them, and then hitting them? lol...

The best thing I've found against lights is Streaks and laser sweeps at the legs. Having your team nearby also helps a lot - a good group (and this does happen in PUGs too) will help you swat the flies. Most light pilots will disengage once they start losing armor.

Although something else to mention - if you're still running trials, you don't have your skills unlocked, and that's huge. The skill trees give you all sorts of bonuses, including bonuses to movement and cooling. The difference between a fresh mech and one that has been mastered is huge. It takes some commitment - three variants of the chassis and a lot of play time - but it pays off. Those lights that are circle jerking you are probably mastered, which means they can start, stop and turn on a dime.

Edit: The trial Orion looks like it has Streaks. Make sure you're taking full advantage of them. They do have a hard cap of 270m (unlike LLs and the AC, which taper off past their max range), but are fantastic against lights.

Edited by Buckminster, 23 May 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Angry Kittens in a Mech, on 19 May 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

Every game I have ever played in 20 years has trolls, {Richard Cameron}, ********, pervs and {Richard Cameron} and trolls.
Personally, I find a complete minority of them in MWO.

two reasons:
1. poor chat system
2. once you play longer, you will start seeing who the trolls are.

[LordKnightFandragon]

JonahGrimm, on 23 May 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

I've been thinking about this, and though i need to know much more to be really useful - I /do/ have some playstyle hints for you:

- If you're going to sniper-up, you need to build for the job. Gauss rifles, especially, are great for this - paired gauss with some point defense means making large holes in enemies without really generating heat. Ideally, you want high weapon mounts or survivable chassis - this will lean you to the K2 Catapult or any of the Jager variants. (High weapon mounts make it easier to shoot over things - Catapult with ERPPC fits the bill, or the Jagers with projectile weapons). There is a Jager with high arm mount ballistic slots and missile racks - I'm not the best to ask on heavies, but that feels like a lovely sniper build to me. LRMs in the missile racks, Gauss in the guns, and blow things apart at range.

- If you're going to lead the charge, the build is actually best in a medium or light heavy. I love my Trebuchet-7k for this role, with the wierdest loadout you've seen: MG, LB10x, 2 ML, 2 SSRM2, lots of armor, AMS, and the biggest engine I can fit. With speed tweak, this thing runs ~100kph.

My favorite tactic is to run through my team, into and through their team, and then turning back on them. If it works, they'll turn their backs to my entire team's firing line, put a few shots all over me, then turn back in a panic... presenting broken rear armor to a critical-hit factory. That's how to lead the charge - with a real charge. Actual speed and in a way that drags your team along with you.

(This mech is actually the most fun I've had outside of lights. You can snuggle up with a Centurion or Hunchback and tag-team down opponents - once their armor's open, /nothing/ stands up to your firepower. I've grabbed guys from C4 and blitzed 8 or nine mechs, run completely dry in everything with ammo, and /still/ been standing. You can hide off of your gunline and wait for stragglers. You can run down lights that overextend themselves (focus on the legs and they go down /fast/, in this mech). You do not, however, have significant range - which does limit your early game. Pop up in the mid to late game with full armor, and it's /terrifying/.

Plus, it's a treb. People think you're stupid for driving one. )

The point is - you need to think through your build to focus on a strategy, on a playing methodology, that suits you. Hybridizing to three or four styles just means you really won't have any fun trying any of 'em.

One last thing - simplify your weapon mounts. See if you can build your mech to use no more than three weapon groups, and assign these to your three mouse buttons. You'll be surprised what a difference that guideline makes.

Well, bought the Masakari. Atm, im trying to L2P and not totally rage at this game like I did back in beta. Im saving Cbills for when I finally have that mech.

I aim to put 2 ERPPC and 2 GR if I can on it.
In MW4 on the Warhawk I used 2 ER PPC and 2 C GR, 1 in each arm, with a Stk SRM6, which prolly behaves and is alot less efficient here then it was in MW4. My question is what will be the ranges on the C/ PPC and C/ GR? ER PPC IS versions are what? 690m? That will give me some nice reach. Next will be to L2P and fire the GR, whcih I hear has a charge time on it..and if you miss the charge timer shot...the shot fails to fire?

I fired left arm and right arm off seperate buttons. Is the Warhawk's arms high mounted enough for what you mention? I know where they hang...which is lower then the K2 and Jager.... but still pretty high up compared to like the Orion.




And on an unrelated note, I am quite surprised at how players are willing to help in this game, compared to most others where its....L2P scrubby noob!!!! you just suck!!! along with the bevy of other stupid little combacks they give when noobs try to L2P with questions. Guess most you all are over the age of 30 lol...not high schoolers and horny middle schoolers lol.

[Magna Canus]

Koniving, on 23 May 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Most Firestarters to include the Ember, tend to have most of their armor channelled to the front.
I literally carry only 2 armor on my back.

Interesting facts: (FST = Front Side Torso, FCT = Front Center Torso, R/LFST = Right or Left Front Side Torso)
Firestarter: 30 FST, 42 FCT <--common for MANY firestarters
Raven: 30 FST, 36 FCT (26 FST, 30 FCT is the common norm)
Jenner: 15 FST, 42 FCT (the common norm is 20 FST and 32 through 36 FCT)
Hunchback: 46 RFST, 51 FCT (the RFST is common on "tough to kill" Hunchbacks; otherwise it's more like 38 to 40 for the common norm)
Shadowhawk: 40 FST, 61 FCT (36 to 38 FST is the common norm.)

The following are common norms only. Gotta keep some trade secrets.
Centurion: 38 FST, 50 FCT.
Trebuchet: 32 FST, 48 FCT.
Cataphract: 48 FST, 76 FCT.
Jagermech: 48 FST, 72 FCT.
Victor: 56 FST, 88 FCT
Awesome: 56 FST, 78 FCT (its not just the hitbox that does them in, people just won't channel as much to the front because they can't leap or slow down quickly to help turn around and fight something behind them).
Banshee: 68 FST, 82 to 108 FCT
Atlas: 70 to 82 FST, 80 to 122 FCT.

Interesting, isn't it?

I have to be doing it wrong then. I still have 10 armor in all of my back plates.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Magnakanus, on 23 May 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I have to be doing it wrong then.

Not necessarily - those are the averages.

[Koniving]

Magnakanus, on 23 May 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I have to be doing it wrong then. I still have 10 armor in all of my back plates.

Change it to 2, and you can get away with going 97 kph and tank really well.

[Buckminster]

LordKnightFandragon, on 23 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I aim to put 2 ERPPC and 2 GR if I can on it.
In MW4 on the Warhawk I used 2 ER PPC and 2 C GR, 1 in each arm, with a Stk SRM6, which prolly behaves and is alot less efficient here then it was in MW4. My question is what will be the ranges on the C/ PPC and C/ GR? ER PPC IS versions are what? 690m? That will give me some nice reach. Next will be to L2P and fire the GR, whcih I hear has a charge time on it..and if you miss the charge timer shot...the shot fails to fire?

I fired left arm and right arm off seperate buttons. Is the Warhawk's arms high mounted enough for what you mention? I know where they hang...which is lower then the K2 and Jager.... but still pretty high up compared to like the Orion.

One of the hardest things for me to get a grip on was that this is NOT the old tabletop game, and that a lot of my old preconceived notions of how things should work just didn't. With the weapon mechanics and the heat system, mechs that used to be perfectly viable designs were suddenly pressure cookers, and the old twin PPC standby (loved my Warhammers) just wasn't quite what I thought it would be, and 18 single heat sinks was definitely not enough to keep it cool. I ended up having to completely change my thought process when I was building mechs, trying to keep in mind the various firing mechanics and movement quirks of the mechs.

Another thing is that we just don't know what to expect from the clan stuff. PGI is in a position where they need to walk the delicate balance of keeping IS viable without making clan stuff pointless. There have been vague rumblings and promises on what they intend to do, but nothing as concrete as "clan ERPPCs will fire X range". It's actually one of the gripes a lot of people have - they want to buy into the clan stuff, but want to know what they are buying.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Buckminster, on 23 May 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Another thing is that we just don't know what to expect from the clan stuff. PGI is in a position where they need to walk the delicate balance of keeping IS viable without making clan stuff pointless. There have been vague rumblings and promises on what they intend to do, but nothing as concrete as "clan ERPPCs will fire X range". It's actually one of the gripes a lot of people have - they want to buy into the clan stuff, but want to know what they are buying.

Clan tech balance and CW balance are two things I very very very much do not envy PGI at ALL.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Buckminster, on 23 May 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

One of the hardest things for me to get a grip on was that this is NOT the old tabletop game, and that a lot of my old preconceived notions of how things should work just didn't. With the weapon mechanics and the heat system, mechs that used to be perfectly viable designs were suddenly pressure cookers, and the old twin PPC standby (loved my Warhammers) just wasn't quite what I thought it would be, and 18 single heat sinks was definitely not enough to keep it cool. I ended up having to completely change my thought process when I was building mechs, trying to keep in mind the various firing mechanics and movement quirks of the mechs.

Another thing is that we just don't know what to expect from the clan stuff. PGI is in a position where they need to walk the delicate balance of keeping IS viable without making clan stuff pointless. There have been vague rumblings and promises on what they intend to do, but nothing as concrete as "clan ERPPCs will fire X range". It's actually one of the gripes a lot of people have - they want to buy into the clan stuff, but want to know what they are buying.

Yeah, the more I read the forums the more I am wondering just how will the clans come to be. We have like a month and we will prolly find out, unless PGI pushes clan mech release further then June's 3rd week.




And on a side note, is it even possible to win in this game? I read an ELO thing that looked like it was similar to WoT's stacked MM, but dayum, im 2/7 or so....can I not be put on a stacked team that could possibly win something? Coming from WoT, despite my 53% win rate and overall pretty good performance there, I am on a like 20 game loss streak, as if its impossible to even buy a win. Coming here and seeing the same stuff is really damn annoying. Obviously, here im not owning the joint, but still, dealing 200-400dmg a game. High damage seemed to be like 600 or so....so, idk, I have room to improve but still...dang.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 24 May 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Tzion]

There is a huge disconnect between number of kills and damage in this game. Just because I do 500 damage in a round does not mean that I will necessarily get a kill. You need to lock on to your target in order to see where their armor is weakest and then pound on that spot until they either die, run away, you are killed, or you have to break off in order to stay alive.

Also pay attention to the enemy's weapons that are listed next to their wire diagram. If they have no weapons left and there are other enemies around stop shooting the defenseless mech and start pounding on the next weakest mech. If there is nobody near them though then feel free to kill the mech.

[Buckminster]

I have a couple "damage does not correlate" stories:

One match I was in a Streak Locust, and caught a Cataphract alone. I could run circles around him, ultimately doing almost 400 damage and getting the kill on a mech 3.5x my size. But we lost. Good for bragging rights, bad for the team.

I have another match - 4MLs and TAG on a Locust. I spent the first half of the match TAGging for LRM boats, and then vultured some kills, finding the weak spots on heavily damaged mechs. Damage was at 130, but included 2 kills, 5 assists, 3 components, and more importantly - a win.

Or one of my most frustrating matches - in a quad AC5 Jager. 430 damage. 0 kills. 0 assists. 0 components. We got stomped, and stomped hard, and just flat out lost. I felt like I did my part, but couldn't focus my fire enough to take anyone out, and my team didn't help me finish the job either. 3-12, we lose bad.

It's very easy to get focused on numbers as to how well you did, but honestly the best number is how much XP you earn. PGI has a decent system that rewards you not just for killing, but for spotting, cancelling ECM, killing a mech as he's trying to cap, and that sort of thing. XP actually measures how effective you were at playing with the team and winning the match, not just how good you were at killing.

Edited by Buckminster, 24 May 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

LordKnightFandragon, on 24 May 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

And on a side note, is it even possible to win in this game?

Having posted that though - yes it is possible to win, but if you are pugging solo - you are running the risk of asking 11 completely random people to cooperate better than the people on the other side

People the haters may laugh at the idea, but it is very much a team-based game, the team that cooperates the best, is usually the one that wins.

To get reliable wins - you need reliable team-mates.

Watch your teammates, and the ones you want to drop with again - put on your friends list, and try setting up 2-4 man groups with them.

I usually solo-pug, but grouping does make a difference.
(exception - when we all drop in locusts - the speed makes it tricky to focus our fire )

Edit: if you are brave enough to join a dedicated group (and there are lots of different ones out there from casuals to intensives) we have subforums (which I think might be limited until after your recruit status changes)

For House Troops
Mercenaries
and the invading Clans

Edited by Shar Wolf, 24 May 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

LordKnightFandragon, on 23 May 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I dont do well in Meds and Lights, im to brawly by nature. Lights seem to be absurdly good in this game though, they are like the size of Elementals in MW3 and MW2.....they just circle jerk me a fair bit of the time....whats the secret here....how do I stop them from circle jerking? I have a hellva time even seeing them, and then hitting them? lol...

What I do when attacked by a circler: Start to turn to chase, just enough so you see them commit to the turn themselves. Then hanker on, reverse and turn the other way. Usually, they are too far in or react too slow to counter turn your counter. then all you have to do is be calm, line up your shot and lolpha the light into oblivion. Try to lolpha a leg if you can then they are deadmeat.
Of course the intelligent ones, this will not work with as they will be watching your movement closely and will adjust theirvector and/or speed to stay on your blindside.

[LordKnightFandragon]

kamiko kross, on 24 May 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

What I do when attacked by a circler: Start to turn to chase, just enough so you see them commit to the turn themselves. Then hanker on, reverse and turn the other way. Usually, they are too far in or react too slow to counter turn your counter. then all you have to do is be calm, line up your shot and lolpha the light into oblivion. Try to lolpha a leg if you can then they are deadmeat.
Of course the intelligent ones, this will not work with as they will be watching your movement closely and will adjust theirvector and/or speed to stay on your blindside.

Lol, I get thrown off by the inverted reversal in this game all the time.

I back up and want to back to the right.....so I press SD....and I suddenly turn left.

It throws me off every time. I wish PGI would uninvert the reversal......its very annoying.

And as for Lolphaing stuff....I seriously can never even see the mechs, they blend in to the terrain so well in this game. Plus Light mechs are like the size of a small child......its like a hill giant trying to track a gnome.....they zip around at 150MPH and its like damn son....im supposed to track that?

And Lolpha with 2 lasers and an AC10? not....I couldnt even lolpha off a Jenners arm with an AC and 2 LLs to it yesterday...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 24 May 2014 - 04:03 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

And whats the button, if there is one, to change our weapons to chain fire? So then we can put all our weapons into group 1 and chain fire them? It would make a 4 PPC Masakari alot better....

But im sure, as per PGI logic, we cannot do such a thing...