41 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

The Summoner Prime has three hardpoints.

Three hardpoints.

Three. Hardpoints.

This is a 70-ton ‘Mech with three hardpoints. To say nothing of the poor Adder Prime, which gets TWO. TWO hardpoints that aren’t occupied with a fixed, irremovable flamer! The Warhawk’s got five, which is just bloody pitiful for a high-end assault ‘Mech.

Does no one else see this as unfairly crippling the flagship configurations of canonically low-gunned ‘Mechs like the Adder or the Summoner?

I understand that the Omnipod system allows a pilot to basically FrankenMech his way into most anything he likes, but in order for that system to be valuable and attractive to players, the Omnipods themselves have to be worthwhile. An arm with one hardpoint in it cannot possibly have enough quirks bolted onto it in the current system to be worth keeping over an arm with two or three hardpoints, to say nothing of completely empty torsos. ‘Mechs with three – OR TWO – hardpoints just aren’t going to cut the mustard in this game, which renders some straight (non-Omni hodgepodged) configurations totally worthless. Want that Hero-type C-bill/XP bonus for firing up the Summoner Prime? Best hope you like its default configuration, then – because that’s all you’re ever going to be able to do with it, given its complete lack of additional hardpoints.

We’d best hope that Piranha wakes up before they actually release these, because unless a ‘Mech has clusters of weapons in a configuration somewhere, a’la the Stormcrow or the Nova, then it doesn’t look like it’s going to get any kind of freedom or flexibility in its choice of armament. Which, given that choice of armament is the only freedom or flexibility that OmniMechs get…

Come on, Piranha. You can do better than this. Don’t powergimp our Clan packs any more than they already have been. Pretty please? I’ll even put a cherry on top?

[Elkfire]

I share your skepticism about the implementation of the Clans, believe me. But keep in mind that the part of a Clan mech that identifies the chassis is -- as far as I know -- the head and center torso (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember exactly). The arm/side torso pods can be switched out for pods that give more hardpoints.

As for quirks, I don't know if this mentioned by a dev or just as a suggestion I read somewhere, but they might give pods with only one hardpoint -- an energy hardpoint, for example, good for something like a large laser or PPC -- a quirk like reduced heat for the weapon used in it, or shorter weapon cycling. Basically, there's a lot we don't know, which isn't good, but it also means we shouldn't start shouting about the sky falling quite yet.

Edited by Elkfire, 08 May 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

I will cry tears of rage for you while I shoot your Summoner in the face.

[Vanguard836]

Elkfire, on 08 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

I share your skepticism about the implementation of the Clans, believe me. But keep in mind that the part of a Clan mech that identifies the chassis is -- as far as I know -- the head and center torso (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember exactly). The arm/side torso pods can be switched out for pods that give more hardpoints.

As for quirks, I don't know if this mentioned by a dev or just as a suggestion I read somewhere, but they might give pods with only one hardpoint -- an energy hardpoint, for example, good for something like a large laser or PPC -- a quirk like reduced heat for the weapon used in it, or shorter weapon cycling. Basically, there's a lot we don't know, which isn't good, but it also means we shouldn't start shouting about the sky falling quite yet.

Quirks were mentioned by the devs. Will it be put in place with the clans or at a later time is another question though.

[Koniks]

I'd echo Elkfire. I think the CT is the only thing locked to a mech configuration. The other pods are identified as being part of a particular configuration, e.g. Left Arm Prime, but are completely swappable. So the only limitation is on which configurations we're given.

The Summoner has 2 configurations with only 3 hardpoints but has several with more.

Edited by Mizeur, 08 May 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[1453 R]

Elkfire, on 08 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

I share your skepticism about the implementation of the Clans, believe me. But keep in mind that the part of a Clan mech that identifies the chassis is -- as far as I know -- the head and center torso (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember exactly). The arm/side torso pods can be switched out for pods that give more hardpoints.

As for quirks, I don't know if this mentioned by a dev or just as a suggestion I read somewhere, but they might give pods with only one hardpoint -- an energy hardpoint, for example, good for something like a large laser or PPC -- a quirk like reduced heat for the weapon used in it, or shorter weapon cycling. Basically, there's a lot we don't know, which isn't good, but it also means we shouldn't start shouting about the sky falling quite yet.

I know how the Omnipod system works, but I also know how the quirk system works. Currently, the only things Piranha can modify via quirks are a ‘Mech’s turning/twisting/arm speeds, and its acceleration rates. The quirk system coding is flat unable to affect any parameters beyond these four. It’s why quirks that might actually impact how a ‘Mech performs on the battlefield have yet to debut – they can’t make meaningful* quirk adjustments like cycle time or heat performance. They’d have to rework the entire quirks system in order for that to be a possibility, and while a redesign of the quirks system in conjunction with the Invasion release isn’t inconceivable, I’m only able to work within what information I have.

As it stands, things like the Summoner Prime, Adder Prime, and to a lesser* extent the Warhawk and Stormcrow Primes are basically limited to their stock armaments and nothing but. This is less of an issue for OmniMechs than for BattleMechs, but it’s still an issue. I would prefer to avoid having ‘necessary’ Omnipods that dominate entire chassis because they’re the only Omnipods that can fit in enough weaponry to make a difference. The Stormcrow-B’s going to be hax enough as it is, eh?

Edited by 1453 R, 08 May 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[valrond]

This really sucks. If they had done the same to the base Banshee (I think it was the 3E, the one that now has 4 ballistics), it should have 3 hardpoints too. The original mech has 1 PPC, 1 AC/5 and one small laser. How many does he get? more than twice. EIGHT. Up from THREE. But clan mechs have to be crippled in every fricking way. You can barely customize them as they come, and now, you can barely change the weaponry.

Yes, I'm aware that there are other configs that have one or two more hardpoints, but that will make the prime configs, the ones that are iconic, useless. Even fricking IS LIGHTS have EIGHT hardpoints.

This is your last chance to save MWO, PGI. If you fail this and Clan Mechs suck after people have spent a TON of money on nice models but useless mechs, this game is simply DONE.

[Mechteric]

We'll have to wait and see how the weapons themselves turn out, they are supposed to do more damage per shot after all. Not to mention weigh less, have better range, etc.

[MisterPlanetarian]

1453 R, on 08 May 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I know how the Omnipod system works, but I also know how the quirk system works. Currently, the only things Piranha can modify via quirks are a ‘Mech’s turning/twisting/arm speeds, and its acceleration rates. The quirk system coding is flat unable to affect any parameters beyond these four. It’s why quirks that might actually impact how a ‘Mech performs on the battlefield have yet to debut – they can’t make meaningful* quirk adjustments like cycle time or heat performance. They’d have to rework the entire quirks system in order for that to be a possibility, and while a redesign of the quirks system in conjunction with the Invasion release isn’t inconceivable, I’m only able to work within what information I have.

As it stands, things like the Summoner Prime, Adder Prime, and to a lesser* extent the Warhawk and Stormcrow Primes are basically limited to their stock armaments and nothing but. This is less of an issue for OmniMechs than for BattleMechs, but it’s still an issue. I would prefer to avoid having ‘necessary’ Omnipods that dominate entire chassis because they’re the only Omnipods that can fit in enough weaponry to make a difference. The Stormcrow-B’s going to be hax enough as it is, eh?

Those are skill tree quirks. Omnimechs will have Quirks assigned to individual components aswell, based on their hardpoints and weaponsystems in canon etc. I'm pretty sure Summoner will be better than people realize.

[1453 R]

I’m not saying that it can’t be made to work. What I’m saying is that this unnecessarily strict interpretation of OmniMech configuration hardpoints is even more harshly limiting ‘Mechs which are harshly limited to begin with. I see no reason why Clan ‘Mechs shouldn’t benefit from the same hardpoint inflation virtually every Inner Sphere ‘Mech has benefited from in the past.

Clansmen have already given up most of their deep customization options in exchange for the Omnipod system (and the Clans’ innate advantages of extra-durable XL engines). We've paid for Omnipod capability already. Why should we have to continue paying?

[Khobai]

Quote

I see no reason why Clan ‘Mechs shouldn’t benefit from the same hardpoint inflation virtually every Inner Sphere ‘Mech has benefited from in the past.

But with 22.5 tons youre not really going to be making use of more than 3 hardpoints anyway (unless you use mostly CSRMS and CERMLs). In other words its not the lack of hardpoints that are the brickwall, its the lack of available pod space. The problem with clan heavies is that by forcing them to take obnoxiously big engines you significantly reduce how much firepower they have. The IS heavies actually have more guns. The result is not only are you giving up customization but youre also running a subpar mech that inefficiently devotes too much of its tonnage to its engine.

Edited by Khobai, 08 May 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Khobai, on 08 May 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Not really. The big problem is the 22.5 tons of podspace. It means you cant even fit in a decent poptart build.

A standard build for a 70 ton poptart with 1 ballistic slot would look something like x2 PPCs and x1 AC10. But even with clan tech that requires a minimum of 24 tons (including ammo). So youre 1.5 tons short.

However if clan mechs can free up tonnage by removing armor it would be possible to remove 1.5 tons of armor to fit x2 ERPPC and x1 CUAC10 (w/ 2 tons ammo). Which isnt a terrible build by any means, but its really about the best you can do with the Thor. But we still dont know if clan mechs can add and remove armor or if they can only add armor.

Well, since just the 2 C-ERPPC is 30 damage, and your proposed build would be 40, long-range, pinpoint damage on a 70-ton, jump-capable mech.... I think it's fine if they can't do it. But maybe I'm just an optimist.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 08 May 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Excactly it is not rocket science. They do not want clan mechs with 80 point alphas. So they are limiting them by number of hard points and weight etc.

[WhoDidTheElf]

You can add/remove armor, but that's 22.5 tons of pod space, with a mediums armor level.

[Xarian]

1) old thread is old
2) LRM 20 + Gauss Rifle + ERPPC (default configuration uses LB10X + LRM15 + ERPPC, and the clan LB10X switches between solid and cluster)
3) You have no idea what the omnipods are, so you can't assume that they're bad

[1453 R]

OneEyed Jack, on 08 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Well, since just the 2 C-ERPPC is 30 damage, and your proposed build would be 40, long-range, pinpoint damage on a 70-ton, jump-capable mech.... I think it's fine if they can't do it. But maybe I'm just an optimist.

Being fair, it’s been stated that Piranha will not be allowing 15-damage CERPPCs into this game. It’s incredibly unlikely we’ll see the super-particannon everyone’s mildly terrified of, and they’ve also already said that Clan autocannons will be firing in bursts of shells rather than single large penetrators. That’s not really the issue, though.

Khobai, on 08 May 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

But with 22.5 tons youre not really going to be making use of more than 3 hardpoints anyway (unless you use mostly CSRMS and CERMLs). In other words its not the lack of hardpoints that are the brickwall, its the lack of available pod space. The problem with clan heavies is that by forcing them to take obnoxiously big engines you significantly reduce how much firepower they have. The IS heavies actually have more guns. The result is not only are you giving up customization but youre also running a subpar mech that inefficiently devotes too much of its tonnage to its engine.

Cataphract driver, right?

You’re talking to a man that went out and grabbed the 385XL for his Victors because JUST BECAUSE. I’m in the camp of “enough firepower in the right spot > Overwhelming overkill chugging along six hundred meters behind everyone else.” 350XL in a 70-tonner sounds good to me, actually – provided I had the hardpoints to properly capitalize on it. I can do a CUAC/20, CLPL, CSSRM-6 build well enough on the thing and have it play very much like a Lite version of my VTR-9S…but that’s the only thing I can really do with it. And that bothers me. A lot.

[Koniks]

In retrospect, Mechwarrior 2 wasn't such a great game.

[WhoDidTheElf]

1453 R, on 08 May 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

You’re talking to a man that went out and grabbed the 385XL for his Victors because JUST BECAUSE. I’m in the camp of “enough firepower in the right spot > Overwhelming overkill chugging along six hundred meters behind everyone else.” 350XL in a 70-tonner sounds good to me, actually – provided I had the hardpoints to properly capitalize on it. I can do a CUAC/20, CLPL, CSSRM-6 build well enough on the thing and have it play very much like a Lite version of my VTR-9S…but that’s the only thing I can really do with it. And that bothers me. A lot.

Remember though thats with 360 armor. The Mad Cat Prime rolls with 460 and my IM rolls with 410 armor.

Your Victor on Steroids probably runs closer to 450. Realistically you're probably going to need to add 2 tons of armor to bring it up to a suitable level. Unless you're really going to run it glass cannon style.

[Risko Vinsheen]

Honestly since the beginning of this whole thing I've just been confused by the fact that omnimechs, which the whole point of them is being more customizable than basic battlemechs, are going to be less customizable than battlemechs.

It just never made sense to me. Yeah you can change pods, but there's more that can't be changed about the clan mechs than can be changed about the IS mechs.

[Odins Fist]

Mizeur, on 08 May 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

In retrospect, Mechwarrior 2 wasn't such a great game.

It's all they had then, and MWO is all we have now...

Older titles no longer qualify, too old, too dated, bad graphics.