185 replies to this topic

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

Is this a subtle "nerf ECM" thread?
My my these are popping up lately.

Random Thought:
I wonder if this recent "ECM scourge" which has so recently, and so apocalyptically apparently broken the game , has anything to do with the "all ECM mechs 50% off special" that so recently ran for so long?

----------------------------------------

It's almost like the Thunderbolt plague that troubled me so much after the free Thunderbolt giveaway. Every game I got killed by a Thunderbolt. The Thunderbolt meta was getting out of hand. Every drop I had several lance mates in Thunderbolts. It was crazy OP - everyone was using them.

I had to quit the game for a whole week it was so insane. I prayed someone would QQ on the forums to save me from the Thunderbolt menace.

But when I logged back on this week, the Thunderbolts had gone. Weird. Perhaps PGI gave them a much-needed nerf...

Edited by Dunning Kruger Effect, 04 June 2014 - 05:41 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Mizeur, on 30 May 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

You do when someone's trying to escape around a building or hill. Or you're trying to get back behind a building or hill. Or you're trying to fire over a hill that the natural arc doesn't compensate for enough.

I'll see again since I am getting a copy of MW2M eventually.

[1453 R]

Oh, for…are we still on this subject?

All right. Here goes.

ECM, and the effects it provides, are necessary for this game. One of the big pillars of MWO – y’know, the ones all the Founders are always screaming at the tippiest-top of their lungs that we need to get back to? – is Information Warfare. In a loose sense, this means to generate information and provide it to your team, as well as deny information to the enemy team when and where possible.

Should ECM alone be the thing providing all the benefits? No. I hate the current implementation of ECM, but not because I’m an LRM player (which I am) who believes that nothing in the game should be able to so much as moderately inconvenience my chosen weapon (which I don’t). I hate the current implementation of ECM because it’s unbalanced – not broken, but “unbalanced”, as in it’s lopsided and doesn’t stand up very well. Only four ‘Mechs in the entire flipping game can currently participate in the denial side of Information Warfare, and they do so with two critical slots and one and a half tons. It’s too simple, too binary, too restricted, and far, far too borked for anyone’s good.

At the very least, we need active/passive sensors so that every ‘Mech on the field can choose where to place their emphasis on IW, and realistically gear like the Beagle probe, ECM, and other such devices should be enhancing these sensor states rather than generating their own discrete effects that have nothing whatsoever to do with the ‘Mech’s sensors half the time. That and ECM should be as widely equippable as Beagle Active Probe, with a similar level of effect – blunting enemy sensors rather than bolstering friendly ones. Equipping the damn thing needs to be a choice, not a requirement, and ECM cannot be the only brick on the IW pillar.

You want hard sensor stealth, like ECM grants right now? Equip Stealth Armor and sacrifice twelve extra crit slots as well as the weight savings from FF (if/when applicable) for it. You want your ECM to protect you from sensor detection without that armor? Run in passive sensor mode and cut your own detection range in half, if not more, and hope you don’t see a lot of guys running active sensors and Beagle probes. You want to take IW to the next level? Wait for the Null Sig (or Void Sig!) system and/or the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield to come back and go Predator-style on people – but be prepared to do it with minimal armament, because all that stealth gear takes up crazy space.

And you know what? I am positively slobbering over those systems coming into MWO because frankly, the thought of real Information Warfare is as enticing to me as Commodity Warfare is to everyone else. Imagine how much more tense and chaotic a MWO match will be when some jackwad on the other team could be totally frickin’ invisible while he lies in wait to jump you like a New York mugger? How incredibly awesome would it be if you had no idea when someone would emerge from stealth right friggin’ there and tear you up before you can respond – and yet it all stays balanced because a ‘Mech with extensive stealth capabilities would have been spending a great deal of slots/weight on those stealth systems, can’t run active sensors, and generally gets less stealthy the faster they move. On top of generating extra heat with their stealth equipment active, as per Sarna’s descriptions of most of this gear.

BUT WE AREN’T GOING TO GET ANY OF THAT IF YOU YAYHOOS KEEP WHINING ABOUT HOW ANY KIND OF STEALTH/SENSOR BAFFLING/INFORMATION DENIAL IS UNFAIR AND BROKEN. So stop it! I want the hell out of all that stuff later on, and if you were any fun at all you would too! Do you, or do you not, want the Information Warfare pillar of MWO, or are you all so over-focused on Commodity Warfare that nothing else matters anymore?

[Chagatay]

Mizeur, on 28 May 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

At 900m a CTF can't deliver a 30 point alpha. The AC5s should be hitting for 2-3 damage each and the PPCs are hitting for about 6. They're also not pinpoint at that range since they travel at different speeds and the AC/5 is going to drop due to gravity.

That's a lot different than an ERPPC or 2xERLL.

This is the B33f speaking....introducing the Boomphract....not 1, not 2, but triiiiippppplllleeee gauss rifles!!!!!
Quite hilarious really.

Edited by Chagatay, 04 June 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Chagatay, on 04 June 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

This is the B33f speaking....introducing the Boomphract....not 1, not 2, but triiiiippppplllleeee gauss rifles!!!!!
Quite hilarious really.

LMAO, yeah, and that's a 45 point alpha at 900 meters.

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Oh my god, such good analysis

This is not sarcasm, I completely agree with you, and I wish people would understand how information warfare works, and how it is needed in this game. Yes, current implementation is borked, but I'd rather have it, than not. It adds such flavor and depth to the game.

Also, this thread needs to go back to the grave, stop necro'ing it.

[Wildstreak]

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

bunch of nonsense.

Oh goodie, another person who has zero clue what he is saying.

What some call Information Warfare should never be rammed down people's throat. There is a reason TT has 3 different Tech/Tier levels with what some Founder's call IW being at the highest level. However, good game designers know you cannot force people to play with High Level rules all the time, that is why CBT HAS 3 different Tech/Tier levels. It is not the only game to have this, I know of at least one other board game that was converted into a computer game, it also had IW as Advanced level rules and in both the board and computer game, IW was and always should be optional.

Lot of assumptions in this post such as how 'everyone else' wants CW. Honestly, I am not sure given the 138 different directions the community wants it to go in. I am not enticed by it, I am waiting to see what it would become.

I am not even sure I want to be involved in the Clan stuff. Didn't much like it when it came out in TT, I preferred 3025 though it had serious faults, one or two that have carried over to this day even into the computer games. I may just ignore CW and see if a group sets up a 3025 campaign instead using MWO.

This cute little comment that clearly the poster seems to like:

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

when some jackwad on the other team could be totally frickin’ invisible while he lies in wait to jump you like a New York mugger?

There are only 2 types of people who, what was it said, 'slobber' over being jumped similar to a New York mugger:
1 - People who think the mafia is cool and wish they were in it for real.
2 - People who have zero clue and/or don't care what real crime is like.
I grew up in 1970s/1980s New York, you did NOT learn to like getting jumped like a New York mugger or anything else. Anyone who enjoys that stuff is considered by real New Yorkers and even people outside New York as a lunatic or worse.

I don't consider the IW stuff worth my time. I have zero interest. There is nothing awesome about for me and never will be.

No, I will not stop posting my beliefs or how I prefer to play. I will also not stop posting on how it is clear some people such as this poster has zero clue how to design or balance games for any kind of community and should seriously go take a class on it.

I do not need to like your preferences to be fun, that's life, deal with it. Been that way with the gaming community for a long time.

IW is not nor ever will be seen as some kind of mandatory pillar to me and it should never be mandatory in any game. If you think it should, you never learned game design like I did and should go get some experience.

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

This is not sarcasm, I completely agree with you, and I wish people would understand how information warfare works, and how it is needed in this game. Yes, current implementation is borked, but I'd rather have it, than not. It adds such flavor and depth to the game.

Also, this thread needs to go back to the grave, stop necro'ing it.

I wish people would learn game design before making such silly statements. Until people learn game design, I will not take any advice.

Edited by Merchant, 04 June 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Merchant, on 04 June 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

I wish people would learn game design before making such silly statements. Until people learn game design, I will not take any advice.

Merchant, do you always deride those that disagree with you?

Honestly, your points are partially valid at best, and you honestly don't seem to understand how the mechanics seem to work. Even the current implementation.

Stealth has always been an asset and a tactic in every game that involved PvP. Anyone remembers the days of Unreal Tournament? When snipers would perch on a tower a mile and a half away from everyone else, and pick people off with no chance of retaliation?

Remember every game with a sniper? They are always hidden, you don't get a target reticle at 800 meters to tell you where they are, even if you can't see them that well, and you don't get to lock on and track people you have no visual on.

Honestly, ECM is not the problem. It's the players that don't cope and adapt. They would rather have the game revolve around their style of play, instead of their style of play revolving around the game.

Also, I don't see any game design experience on you (I at least studied software development and computer programming), however, I will consider your suggestions. Regardless of what your ego-peen, and what you think should be the minimum bar that people need to pass before they can be in the same conversation as you.

EDIT:

Also, no one is giving you advice anymore. We suggested you adapt, you don't want to.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 June 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[1453 R]

So...instead of a multifaceted game of shifting variables and different specializations, we should all just line up like old-school British Redcoats and musket each other until one side's done?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Merchant, on 04 June 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Until people learn game design (read: do things my way) I will not take any advice.

At this we should have realized.....


And stopped feeding the troll

[Tesunie]

Merchant, on 04 June 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Oh goodie, another person who has zero clue what he is saying.

What some call Information Warfare should never be rammed down people's throat. There is a reason TT has 3 different Tech/Tier levels with what some Founder's call IW being at the highest level. However, good game designers know you cannot force people to play with High Level rules all the time, that is why CBT HAS 3 different Tech/Tier levels. It is not the only game to have this, I know of at least one other board game that was converted into a computer game, it also had IW as Advanced level rules and in both the board and computer game, IW was and always should be optional.

Lot of assumptions in this post such as how 'everyone else' wants CW. Honestly, I am not sure given the 138 different directions the community wants it to go in. I am not enticed by it, I am waiting to see what it would become.

I am not even sure I want to be involved in the Clan stuff. Didn't much like it when it came out in TT, I preferred 3025 though it had serious faults, one or two that have carried over to this day even into the computer games. I may just ignore CW and see if a group sets up a 3025 campaign instead using MWO.

This cute little comment that clearly the poster seems to like:

There are only 2 types of people who, what was it said, 'slobber' over being jumped similar to a New York mugger:
1 - People who think the mafia is cool and wish they were in it for real.
2 - People who have zero clue and/or don't care what real crime is like.
I grew up in 1970s/1980s New York, you did NOT learn to like getting jumped like a New York mugger or anything else. Anyone who enjoys that stuff is considered by real New Yorkers and even people outside New York as a lunatic or worse.

I don't consider the IW stuff worth my time. I have zero interest. There is nothing awesome about for me and never will be.

No, I will not stop posting my beliefs or how I prefer to play. I will also not stop posting on how it is clear some people such as this poster has zero clue how to design or balance games for any kind of community and should seriously go take a class on it.

I do not need to like your preferences to be fun, that's life, deal with it. Been that way with the gaming community for a long time.

IW is not nor ever will be seen as some kind of mandatory pillar to me and it should never be mandatory in any game. If you think it should, you never learned game design like I did and should go get some experience.

I wish people would learn game design before making such silly statements. Until people learn game design, I will not take any advice.

I believe you have taken things out of context here. The comment about the "New York Mugger" was in reference to being stealthy and trying to hit someone hard when they least expect it. It was used as a reference also to what gear should be needed for such a task. ECM by itself (in lore) was not capable of this task. Stealth armor helped, as well as Null Sig. Each of these other systems had their costs, normally in crit spaces. Less crit spaces tend to mean less weapons you can take.

I'd suggest you go back and reread the quoted posts. I don't think you grasp what was really being discussed in them. (Then provide a more informed opinion of what they are saying. We are all entitled to our opinions, no matter what other people might think of our suggestions. Rudeness, however, is not an opinion one can post.)

Shar Wolf, on 04 June 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

At this we should have realized.....


And stopped feeding the troll

Well... you know me...

[IraqiWalker]

Tesunie, on 04 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

I believe you have taken things out of context here. The comment about the "New York Mugger" was in reference to being stealthy and trying to hit someone hard when they least expect it. It was used as a reference also to what gear should be needed for such a task. ECM by itself (in lore) was not capable of this task. Stealth armor helped, as well as Null Sig. Each of these other systems had their costs, normally in crit spaces. Less crit spaces tend to mean less weapons you can take.

I'd suggest you go back and reread the quoted posts. I don't think you grasp what was really being discussed in them. (Then provide a more informed opinion of what they are saying. We are all entitled to our opinions, no matter what other people might think of our suggestions. Rudeness, however, is not an opinion one can post.)



Well... you know me...

I wish more people would behave this way (your way Tesunie). Very civil, and allows people to have a back and forth talk that can be enjoyed by all involved.

[L Y N X]

ECM is not OP if both sides get the same number of ECM mechs... then it is teamwork that makes the difference.

One might correctly conclude that ECM is not the problem, but MM is.

Edited by 7ynx, 04 June 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

7ynx, on 04 June 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

ECM is not OP if both sides get the same number of ECM mechs... then it is teamwork that makes the difference.

No, not really. There is a lot of tactical inflexibility that would be enforced if both teams have the same number (since people will ask for both teams to also have the same chassis, not fair you get Atlas and I get Commando)

I have no problem with running a 12 drop against an ECM heavy team, without having as much ECM as them. After all, I only need 1UAV to counter any ECM mechs that get close. If they stay at a distance, PPCs and TAG ruin their day. Plus, Ballistics and LLs have no problem hitting mechs that have ECM.

[Tim East]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

No, not really. There is a lot of tactical inflexibility that would be enforced if both teams have the same number (since people will ask for both teams to also have the same chassis, not fair you get Atlas and I get Commando)

Hohoho, if I catch an atlas dumb enough to travel by itself with my commando...
You're right; that isn't fair.

[IraqiWalker]

Tim East, on 04 June 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Hohoho, if I catch an atlas dumb enough to travel by itself with my commando...
You're right; that isn't fair.

I like your style We need to do a commando drop together.

[Just wanna play]

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

So...instead of a multifaceted game of shifting variables and different specializations, we should all just line up like old-school British Redcoats and musket each other until one side's done?

I don't see why not!

[Wildstreak]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Merchant, do you always deride those that disagree with you?

You tried this last time, didn't work and will not work now. The derision came from 1453R as it did from Vanguard last time. You want no derision, address them.

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Honestly, your points are partially valid at best, and you honestly don't seem to understand how the mechanics seem to work. Even the current implementation.

Stealth has always been an asset and a tactic in every game that involved PvP. Anyone remembers the days of Unreal Tournament? When snipers would perch on a tower a mile and a half away from everyone else, and pick people off with no chance of retaliation?

Remember every game with a sniper? They are always hidden, you don't get a target reticle at 800 meters to tell you where they are, even if you can't see them that well, and you don't get to lock on and track people you have no visual on.

Honestly, ECM is not the problem. It's the players that don't cope and adapt. They would rather have the game revolve around their style of play, instead of their style of play revolving around the game.

You made a bad comparison, Snipers are Humans, BattleMechs are vehicles. Try comparing to vehicular stealth, whole different story there. This is not Call of Duty, it is a game about vehicles not Humans.

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Also, I don't see any game design experience on you (I at least studied software development and computer programming), however, I will consider your suggestions. Regardless of what your ego-peen, and what you think should be the minimum bar that people need to pass before they can be in the same conversation as you.

EDIT:

Also, no one is giving you advice anymore. We suggested you adapt, you don't want to.

Adapt is ignorant when those saying it come from a completely wrong angle on the subject. Your whole argument is limited to a small amount of games based on Humans being snipers. Again, this is a game about Vehicles, try comparing to other games of a similar nature.

As for game design experience, you made 2 mistakes.

1 - Assuming it involves software. Some people do this because they think games is limited to only computer/console games forgetting it includes board/card/other types. Proven by a recent topic where someone compared MWO to MtG though that is another bad comparison.

2 - Assuming about someone. This is the third time assumption has happened here about me with zero supporting proof. Given the complete lack of proof, I fail to see how any such comments can be given any weight at all. In regards to your comments, my game design credits are my real name being in the list of people who tested and helped create rules for new game products.

But then we are on an Internet forum, like most forums it uses handles instead of real names. Like most forums, it has its share of immature people like Vanguard, 1453R and you who would rather make assumptions than learn about people.

Edited by Merchant, 05 June 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[1453 R]

Whoops. Looks like you got your quote tags mixed up, Merchant. Either that or Walker and I are different personalities in the same body and I don't know it...

[Mechteric]

GECM should be plain old GECM not Angel ECM + GECM

[Wildstreak]

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

So...instead of a multifaceted game of shifting variables and different specializations, we should all just line up like old-school British Redcoats and musket each other until one side's done?

When you can make correct analogies that you did incorrectly here again, you will learn.

Shar Wolf, on 04 June 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

At this we should have realized.....


And stopped feeding the troll

Except there are, so far, 3 trolls here and I am none of them.

Tesunie, on 04 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

I believe you have taken things out of context here. The comment about the "New York Mugger" was in reference to being stealthy and trying to hit someone hard when they least expect it. It was used as a reference also to what gear should be needed for such a task. ECM by itself (in lore) was not capable of this task. Stealth armor helped, as well as Null Sig. Each of these other systems had their costs, normally in crit spaces. Less crit spaces tend to mean less weapons you can take.

I'd suggest you go back and reread the quoted posts. I don't think you grasp what was really being discussed in them. (Then provide a more informed opinion of what they are saying. We are all entitled to our opinions, no matter what other people might think of our suggestions. Rudeness, however, is not an opinion one can post.)



Well... you know me...

No, I take nothing out of context. As I said to Iraqiwalker, he and now you are trying to compare games and elements about Humans to a game about Vehicles. Not everything about the two are similar, there are many things that do not line up and should not.

There have been too many efforts to elevate the Sniper in this game above all others. I partly blame the lack of information people get from various media about this including military games, books, film and TV thus giving society a bad, horrible view on military subjects.

MWO has had its focus too much on SniperWarrior Online. It needs to stop.

1453 R, on 05 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Whoops. Looks like you got your quote tags mixed up, Merchant. Either that or Walker and I are different personalities in the same body and I don't know it...

On this, sir, you are correct and I edited it. I normally do any medium+ post offline in a Word Processor to catch spelling mistakes and allow time to review but catching things like tag formatting is something that can be missed.