185 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Merchant, on 22 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Actually incorrect.
So no Lock delays for anything.
I was.
Counters have not changed how often it shows up.
Because you cannot find them thanks to ECM Stealth and good use of terrain, no one is going to spam the God Strikes anywhere hoping for Lucky Hits.

Incorrect for tabletop, yes. It's a 10 second summary and LRMs had NO LOCK for indirect fire and they simply homed into a general direction of a mech within an area. More like a carpet bombing actually. It was like this:

With line of sight or with a C3 computer system, then you had locks. But you could only get to rules about what effects it has on LRMs without those systems with the advanced rules of Tactical Ops. I explained why I took LRMs out in the original post already, as MWO's LRMs do not work that way. We magically have TAG/NARC/C3-enabled LRMs all magically slapped into one cheap package. There are no standard LRMs in MWO.

And the 8 second delay is a fact in MWO. O.o; Second match beginning 2:23.


Thus, a delay in targeting makes sense. It already exists just remove the invisibility cloak.

Videos of 'back in the day' pre ECM, ECM, and post ECM.

Spoiler

Pre ECM.








More stealth oriented Pre-ECM Super Early Beta




Stealth worked back then, you had to be careful, slow, but most importantly every now and then 'power down' next to a dead mech or while smoking to pretend you're dead. Then power on and AMBUSH!

Or just be stealthy.

When ECM first started.



Stealth came and went. But the stealth skills existed beforehand. This just gave it a new window. This "stealth" is supposed to come with Stealth Armor. Not ECM.

Post ECM.


No ECM used in ECM world to acquire stealth.

Yep. ECM didn't have anything to do with stealth. It existed beforehand and the days it is used for stealth are long gone.

Honestly the funniest thing was back then standing behind some crates, powering down and waiting until someone came by and then watching their mech react in utter fear as you see you made them physically jump so strongly in scaring them that they shook their mouse!

Want to be invisible? Pay the 12 slot fee of Stealth Armor, combined with your ECM is 14 slots and 1.5 tons.
Besides there isn't a thing 'stealthy' about a D-DC.

Want gameplay where scouts matter? Change the game modes. It's Skirmish, Skirmish with turrets, and Skirmish with Drills. Make the objectives matter more than killing each other. Once Assault paid more for the base capture. In fact it paid so much more than Atlases and Muromets would skip easy kills to rush the base to try and capture it. Why? It paid the most with everyone still alive. That's where stealth kicked in.

Here, I'm on defense as the big thing had been to send scouts to capture the base. Because I'm here I can also command.

As the team is fighting landside, two Atlases and a Muromets try to sneak up to the base to capture it. Teams had attackers, defenders, and skirmishers (aka brawlers) with a number of roles in between from fire support to sharp shooters to scouts and so on. The game was a lot more in depth, and all of it was because and exclusively due to, the fact that it paid more to play the objective than to kill everyone.

And today, we have this.

Is it any wonder no one plays the objective? It's harder and earns nothing at all now.
So the game floods with LRM boats, meta, and poptarts. Why? All the money is in damage and kills.

Edited by Koniving, 22 May 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Flaming oblivion]

JagdFlanker, on 22 May 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

sorry, ECM is a joke and anybody who thinks it's op is afraid of ghosts and the boogyman. i pilot LRM mechs with TAG almost exclusively and as soon as i spot any mech - ECM or no - they get a burst of TAG, they'r immediately targeted, and they get a swarm of LRMs pounded down their throat. combine that with target decay and even if they break contact they still get nailed

heck, you don't even need adv target range or BAP anymore if you'v got TAG - every single visible mech within 750m range is IMMEDIATELY targetable with TAG, and if you have SSRMs you combine that with target decay once you lock on you STAY locked on unless the target retreats. if the ECM-equipped target is maneuvering you keep giving it the occasional 'TAG paint' to keep it locked on - you are trying to keep the enemy in front of you so you can fire at it anyways, right?

i'm not saying that it's easy - it takes practice and skill to use TAG in all the situations you'l encounter, and of course it's going to take up one of your weapons mounts/groups (you can even group it with another weapon so when fire at the enemy you also TAG it, allowing you to target it or keep it targeted), but it is a HARD counter to ECM and if you don't use or don't want to use TAG or you use a mech that is unable to mount TAG, then you can't complain about ECM.


i'm sure this will turn into a 'passionate' topic regardless lol

[Kjudoon]

I wonder if ECM would be considered OP if it was the weight and slots of a PPC? 7 tons / 3 slots?

Boy... those light ECM mechs would then be given a choice. Weapon or shield.

Of course, I still think if Electronic warfare is going to be so important to the game like this, XP and Cbill rewards for ECM use, Narc, Tag, Bap and spotting need to be a lot more.

You know... I think doing this would be the simplest, easiest thing to do to balance ECM. It forces real choice, and you can bet those ECM ravens, spiders and commandos would just about vanish from the game.

Edited by Kjudoon, 22 May 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Flaming oblivion]

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I wonder if ECM would be considered OP if it was the weight and slots of a PPC? 7 tons / 3 slots?

Boy... those light ECM mechs would then be given a choice. Weapon or shield.

Of course, I still think if Electronic warfare is going to be so important to the game like this, XP and Cbill rewards for ECM use, Narc, Tag, Bap and spotting need to be a lot more.

Always thought that atleast ecm needed a weight increase or two different versions one just to cover you for 1 tonne, another to cover your team for 7-10 tonnes , Or they could just leave it how it is and remove invisibility.

[StalaggtIKE]

If you're allowed to keep TAG on ECM target long enough for LRM to hit then you're playing in average to low ELO bracket.

[Koniving]

To follow up, back to this video from the pre ECM stealth era.

Watch the minimap. Updates once per second. If we have that happen with all ally and enemy units, stealth can again be very easy to achieve for any mech. Would we have any reason for ECM to make players invisible? Just delay locks. And eventually add in Stealth Armor as an upgrade for ECM mechs. After all, yes it affects your radar...at 180 meters or less. It doesn't do anything at all to you from outside that distance. Stealth armor makes you undetectable to sensors, but stealth armor doesn't work without ECM.

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I wonder if ECM would be considered OP if it was the weight and slots of a PPC? 7 tons / 3 slots?

Boy... those light ECM mechs would then be given a choice. Weapon or shield.

Of course, I still think if Electronic warfare is going to be so important to the game like this, XP and Cbill rewards for ECM use, Narc, Tag, Bap and spotting need to be a lot more.

You know... I think doing this would be the simplest, easiest thing to do to balance ECM. It forces real choice, and you can bet those ECM ravens, spiders and commandos would just about vanish from the game.

Electronic Warfare Equipment was quite heavy. But honestly the Stealth Armor + Guardian ECM is a 1.5 ton weight and 14 slot investment. It should more than cover it. And ECM without stealth armor, akin to lore, isn't worth a whole lot beyond maybe delaying locks (since TT's requirement of a C3 computer to acquire a lock outside of line of sight isn't in the game, and lock delaying is already in the game anyway).

[Wildstreak]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you're allowed to keep TAG on ECM target long enough for LRM to hit then you're playing in average to low ELO bracket.

Don't forget the Target Info Gathering for faster Lock times.
Yep, that is about my ELO so I know.

[Flaming oblivion]

Koniving, on 22 May 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

To follow up, back to this video from the pre ECM stealth era.

Watch the minimap. Updates once per second. If we have that happen with all ally and enemy units, stealth can again be very easy to achieve for any mech. Would we have any reason for ECM to make players invisible? Just delay locks. And eventually add in Stealth Armor as an upgrade for ECM mechs. After all, yes it affects your radar...at 180 meters or less. It doesn't do anything at all to you from outside that distance. Stealth armor makes you undetectable to sensors, but stealth armor doesn't work without ECM.



Electronic Warfare Equipment was quite heavy. But honestly the Stealth Armor + Guardian ECM is a 1.5 ton weight and 14 slot investment. It should more than cover it. And ECM without stealth armor, akin to lore, isn't worth a whole lot beyond maybe delaying locks (since TT's requirement of a C3 computer to acquire a lock outside of line of sight isn't in the game, and lock delaying is already in the game anyway).

I feel like stealth armour would become the only way to go for a lot of mechs way more beneficial then FF , Arguably better then standard even with the extra slots. Not sure how I feel about that.

[Kjudoon]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you're allowed to keep TAG on ECM target long enough for LRM to hit then you're playing in average to low ELO bracket.

Right. That's why I've developed a new trick to tagging. Otherwise the AC counterbattery is fast and almost fatal at my ELO level.

[Edustaja]

If I could have ECM on all mechs, I probably would.

[Kjudoon]

Edustaja, on 22 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

If I could have ECM on all mechs, I probably would.

And that's why it's OP. It's a no brainer that if you could mount it, it would instantly be on every chassis. There is virtually no downside.

Consider this: If you had 12 mechs with ECM, you'd have zero use for any guided weapon which is every missile weapon minus SRMs. TAG, BAP, Artemis would be useless because of overlapping ECM bubbles. In essence only dumb firing would work, and that eliminates the entire purpose for having LRMs. Sure you can dumbfire, but let's face it... the only ones hit by dumbfired missiles are the unaware, or those so close SRMs are the better choice.

If you had 12 LRMboats, a good brawling/sniping team will beat it 90% of the time. A PUG group would die a horrific death most times. I know this because I've seen it happen multiple times in 12man LRM experiments I've been a part of.

[Flaming oblivion]

Edustaja, on 22 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

If I could have ECM on all mechs, I probably would.

If you could the way ecm stacks and currently works , The minute you give ecm to all mechs remove streaks and lrms. Because the only thing that works against stacked ecm is tag and UAV(?) , BAP and narc don't work against stacked ecm and I find ppcs ridiculously unreliable for a ecm counter, Not that ppcs should be good at countering ecm there to powerful already but that's a different subject.

[Koniving]

Flaming oblivion, on 22 May 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I feel like stealth armour would become the only way to go for a lot of mechs way more beneficial then FF , Arguably better then standard even with the extra slots. Not sure how I feel about that.

Thing is Stealth Armor is only available to mechs with ECM. So there wouldn't be any abuse there. No ECM, no benefits from Stealth Armor. Actually no ability to mount it anyway. The two go hand in hand.

Also, unlike "Ferro" armor, it is non-dynamic. Meaning it takes 2 slots in each part aside from the head, so even if you had an ECM on something like a Victor, it'd prevent the dual UAC/5 or AC/20 rig. Not that you'd ever have ECM and therefore would never have Stealth Armor on a Victor, but you get my point.

Examples:
Raven 3-L The 4 CASE and 8 AC/20 ammo represent Stealth Armor. (You have 10 more tons to work with than shown).

Atlas D-DC The 12 command consoles represent Stealth Armor. Kinda hurts the typical builds, doesn't it? (There's 36 more tons to work with than shown).

Edited by Koniving, 22 May 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Flaming oblivion, on 22 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

If you could the way ecm stacks and currently works , The minute you give ecm to all mechs remove streaks and lrms. Because the only thing that works against stacked ecm is tag and UAV(?) , BAP and narc don't work against stacked ecm and I find ppcs ridiculously unreliable for a ecm counter, Not that ppcs should be good at countering ecm there to powerful already but that's a different subject.

Tag no longer works against stacked ECM. Been watching it carefully for weeks now. PGI botched it up and is not admitting it. Yes, I have service tickets in on it.

[IraqiWalker]

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Wait... wut? ECM should negate everything designed to control the OP nature of ECM and keep it from being the instant win button it almost is?

Welcome to ECMwarrior Online.

Either you're being sarcastic, or you don't actually know what ECM is supposed to do. As far as BT goes, ECM was supposed to do all of the above, the draw back to it, is that very few mechs could actually carry ECM (much like the case right now) Which would force you to either use them or use the weight for other mechs that can pack more punch.

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Okay, I see what you're getting at now... Yes. ECM stealth has a huge impact, but it has an inordinate impact on missile systems and need it fixed somehow. Of course, the best way to equalize its impact is to make it affect targetting for direct fire weapons by giving them jitter. Then after that, see if it's still OP.

It is supposed to be a powerful counter to Guided missiles (the ONLY system it actually counters, while the other 98% are unaffected by ECM). That's why we had spotters. The fact that ECM can be countered so easily now, especially with a NARC, has removed the spotter role from the game. Now, LRM boats don't actually have to fear ECM mechs (the only thing that can counter them), they can just sit there, with BAP or TAG, and shut down ECM mechs.

Honestly, The current mockery of ECM we have right now, is only good in the first 2 minutes of the match, and only works because people are too disorganized, so ECM needed to get shot in the knee to make sure the headless masses don't die. Yet we still get people complaining about it. Even the mechs that carry ECM have been nerfed.

How much more does ECM need to be nerfed for people to be happy? It's an integral part of the game, learn how to use, and how to counter it (which is laughably easy now) This is reminding me of all the whining in WoT over Artillery.

Next people might want Arty strikes, and Airtstrikes removed. Also, since thinking is way too hard, maybe even remove any sense of using tactics too?

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 May 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[Flaming oblivion]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Either you're being sarcastic, or you don't actually know what ECM is supposed to do. As far as BT goes, ECM was supposed to do all of the above, the draw back to it, is that very few mechs could actually carry ECM (much like the case right now) Which would force you to either use them or use the weight for other mechs that can pack more punch.



It is supposed to be a powerful counter to Guided missiles (the ONLY system it actually counters, while the other 98% are unaffected by ECM). That's why we had spotters. The fact that ECM can be countered so easily now, especially with a NARC, has removed the spotter role from the game. Now, LRM boats don't actually have to fear ECM mechs (the only thing that can counter them), they can just sit there, with BAP or TAG, and shut down ECM mechs.

Honestly, The current mockery of ECM we have right now, is only good in the first 2 minutes of the match, and only works because people are too disorganized, so ECM needed to get shot in the knee to make sure the headless masses don't die. Yet we still get people complaining about it. Even the mechs that carry ECM have been nerfed.

How much more does ECM need to be nerfed for people to be happy? It's an integral part of the game, learn how to use, and how to counter it (which is laughably easy now) This is reminding me of all the whining in WoT over Artillery.

Next people might want Arty strikes, and Airtstrikes removed. Also, since thinking is way too hard, maybe even remove any sense of using tactics too?

Sorry sometimes we agree this is not one of the occasions , If ecm didn't slow down locking time and flat out lose your lock I could live with it , That and the fact it stacks is just ridiculous halve the counters are useless against stacked ecm . I know your not seriously trying to argue ecm is weak . Since you wont see a mech with ecm capability without ecm equipped often. And I find very few battles where there isn't atleast 1 ecm mech usually 2-3 , I suppose that's because its underpowered ? ;/

[Kjudoon]

It's simple. ECM is often the determining factor in which side wins the match even moreso than tonnage. Also, the better the skill, the more devestating it is.

[IraqiWalker]

Flaming oblivion, on 22 May 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Sorry sometimes we agree this is not one of the occasions , If ecm didn't slow down locking time and flat out lose your lock I could live with it , That and the fact it stacks is just ridiculous halve the counters are useless against stacked ecm . I know your not seriously trying to argue ecm is weak . Since you wont see a mech with ecm capability without ecm equipped often. And I find very few battles where there isn't atleast 1 ecm mech usually 2-3 , I suppose that's because its underpowered ? ;/

No need to say sorry. People have different opinions, and I respect yours, even if we disagree.

I'm not saying ECM is weak. I'm saying it's weaker than it should be. There are too many counters for it right now. As for losing locks, that is literally it's job. It's the only reason this piece of equipment exists, that and stealth armor. A Bloodhound Probe would be able to shut it down, but that isn't due for a long time.

As for stacked ECMs, it literally takes one UAV to shut them down. I understand that stacked ECM is a problem. I personally think that ECM should go no more than 2 stacks (so even when there are 12 ECM mechs next to each other, you need to counter only 2 to get through the interference.

It used to be that when an enemy ECM mech is spotted I'd get a request from someone to go counter it with my own ECM. Puts me at risk, since I have to close with it to shut down it's ECM, and expose myself, but the entire team benefits from it, and we had all kinds of counter play with that. Now, there's no need for that, because everyone can shut down ECM with a BAP.

It's frustrating to deal with ECM if you are an LRM boat, but that's what it's there for. It's an escort utility equipment. Any other mech can easily deal with the ECM mech for you, and you'd be free to fire your missiles away. It added some tactical depth to the game, which is honestly fading. Now instead of the ECM mech being a target that was worth of being focused, you can just ignore it, because everyone else can counter ECM for you easily.

Stacking is the one issue that I think definitely needs revisiting, as for the rest. I honestly think ECM could use a buff once stacking is removed (and more coordinate play happnes, instead of the brain-dead running we have)

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's simple. ECM is often the determining factor in which side wins the match even moreso than tonnage. Also, the better the skill, the more devestating it is.

That's information warfare. Don't blame ECM, if the team can't coordinate. It's part of the tactics in this game. Strategy adds great flavor to this game, and part of it, is knowing where your enemy is, and your enemy trying to hide themselves, so they can surprise you.

Also, I'm pretty sure the determining factor for winning or losing, is timidity. Timid teams, always lose, because they decide to hunker down, and let other players lead the charge, or dish the damage, and skirmish against the enemy team (often 1 against 3, because everyone else is hiding). Fear is the real decider. Instead of letting that Atlas charge by himself, run a whole lance with him to make sure the enemy has other targets to shoot, instead of one mech.

Your statement also has another meaning, It's not ECM that's determining the winner, it's how people behaved in regards to ECM being deployed. It's the same problem with people who complain that LRMs are OP. Unless you learn how that tactic works, and counter it, you're probably going to lose. Don't stay in the open, get behind a wall, wait for them to switch focus, close the gap, and blow them up. Simple, really.

Same with ECM, all it takes is one person typing in chat (ECM at J5), or (ECM lance at C4), and the entire team will know about that sneaking force heading for a flank, intercept them, and destroy/cripple them.

I don't see many things as OP right now, not even the current pop-tart meta (I think it's getting old, but that's it). Each tactic has a weakness, and you just need to figure out what it is, to break that tactic. That's the beauty of stratagem.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 May 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Wildstreak]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

How much more does ECM need to be nerfed for people to be happy? It's an integral part of the game, learn how to use, and how to counter it (which is laughably easy now) This is reminding me of all the whining in WoT over Artillery.

How about a nice, simple system instead of a complicated one?
Complicated - ECM-Stealth thus requiring, what, 3-6 counters? (Now)
Simple - No ECM-Stealth, thus no need for all those counters and some systems can be restored to what they were.

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Next people might want Arty strikes, and Airtstrikes removed. Also, since thinking is way too hard, maybe even remove any sense of using tactics too?

No, we want them tied to the Command Console with the CC limited to Heavies and Assaults instead of everyone including Locusts carrying it.
CC gives an extra slot, let it be the ONLY slot for Strikes, if need be it can have a second so it carries one of each but no more.
That should be worth 3 tons and 1 mil C-Bills.

[Tesunie]

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Well, it certainly is OP when you consider game balance in the form of function versus weight/slot comparativeness. BAPs are broken currently and don't seem to block ECM half the time anyway, but it does at least find powered down mechs and speeds locks and stacks with TAG when TAG isn't acting stupid about ECM either.

Okay... I stopped reading the OP half way through, and I read up to this point.

I just wanted to say about BAP, it does not increase lock on speed. It increases data gathering. Common misconception. (Unless I am completely wrong, but everywhere I have read says target data, not lock on speed... )


As far as ECM goes... I wouldn't say it's OP as in broken, but it is a bit overpowered. As an LRM user who runs with a 2 button mouse (left, right and a mouse wheel for zoom), I create my mechs to work with two weapon groups. As my designs often incorporate a mix of LRMs and a defensive close range grid, I do not often times have the button for TAG for a separate weapon grouping. This means I often times play LRMs without TAG.

ECM is a little too strong of an LRM counter in my opinion. Don't believe me? Play LRMs without TAG. It's possible, but not very easy at all.

For ECM, I feel if it didn't provide the "cloak" effect and let me still target and lock on, they could have it drastically increase the lock on time to make it very difficult to get a missile lock, but not impossible like how it is right now. They could make it delay the red triangle marker when visibly seen, so quick dashes between terrain would keep your untagetable (like now), but if you stand out in the open for periods of time, you would be able to be targeted and easily spotted by the IFF identifier. Last thing I would add would be to have ECM mask your damage charts, so people might be able to lock onto an ECM mech, but they wouldn't be able to gather any data on the mech.

However, ECM is here to stay, and I believe it is here to stay as it currently is for the most part. So, I shall accept it as it currently is, and just wait for my other weapons to become effective in range to fight them and kill them without my LRM aid... (Having a balanced build can be a blessing most times.)