60 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Just be rid of ghost heat, the heat system itself is supposed to be the balancing system for simultaneous weapons fire.


We already take damage when over 100% heat, they can build on from there.


Lowering heat capacity (with appropriate increase in dissipation), along with speed and visual impairments when running high heat are also excellent options within this system.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 26 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

How bout no ghost heat at all instead? We dont want ghost heat. We want the underlying problems fixed (i.e. pinpoint damage).

^ This.

SirLANsalot, on 26 May 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Just use 3 LL then? Ghost heat is not this evil system that everyone fears. Hell a few of my "go to" mechs are under ghost heat, yet it doesn't effect them much. 3 LL (alpha) is the cost of 3 LL in heat (21) + 3 more heat (an SRM4)

You don't understand. Failing at removing GH, I want the LLaser GH limit increased to three so I can boat four LLasers with minimum penalty. That will serve as one more step to let the LLaser compete with the PPC master race.

Ah, the fun times I had with my CTF-1X with Quad LLasers...I want that back.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 May 2014 - 07:07 PM.

[DaZur]

The wails of indignation would be deafening even to Helen Keller if the plight to mitigate weapon accuracy were ever brought to fruition.

What's that... Your irritated that half your shots don't land where you aimed? The devil you say!

No offense guys. While I appreciate forwarded premise... random accuracy penalties in a shooter is just silly.

That said, GH is an ugly and unruly means to an end that is harshly implemented and I agree it should go bye-bye...

[El Bandito]

DaZur, on 26 May 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

The wails of indignation would be deafening even to Helen Keller if the plight to mitigate weapon accuracy were ever brought to fruition. What's that... Your irritated that half your shots don't land where you aimed? The devil you say! No offense guys. While I appreciate forwarded premise... random accuracy penalties in a shooter is just silly. That said, GH is an ugly and unruly means to an end that is harshly implemented and I agree it should go bye-bye...

Then PGI should re-implement delayed convergence. Cause there is something called targeting computer in all mechs. Currently it feels like Counter-Strike.

*correction* Counter-Strike has better convergence.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 May 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

We can't have nice things.

To put in perspective based on ghost heat caps...

2 PPCs = 20 pt instant pinpoint damage
6 med lasers = 30 pt streaming damage
2 large lasers = 18 pt streaming damage

Does this compute? PGI logic.

I think 3 for laser family should happen for sure.

Although

3x LLAS = 27 streaming for 24 heat
vs.
6x MLAS = 30 streaming for 24 heat


For the tonnage, the Large Laser family should move up to 3 without penalty, but if you do use three LLAS at least you are only taking a 10% efficiency hit in damage per heat.

[Koniving]

L e 0, on 26 May 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Cant Large lasers ghost heat at 3 instead of 2? Just feel it would be bring more viable builds to meds.

I agree.

Right now 2 Large Lasers = 18 damage spread over 1 second. 4.25 second firing rate.
2 PPCs = 20 damage pinpoint. 4 second firing rate.

So its weaker, slower, and has to be on target for 1 full second!
But that PPC only has to be on target when you 'click' the mouse and that's it? That's 0.01 seconds!

2 Clan ER PPCs = 30 damage pinpoint.
...2 Clan ER LL (Sarna) = 20 damage spread over 1.25 to 1.5 seconds (Paul's mentioned possible beam lengths for Clan lasers).

So again it's gonna be weaker, have even MORE time to focus on the target, and any of this makes sense how?

Something's pretty bad here.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[DaZur]

El Bandito, on 26 May 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Then PGI should re-implement delayed convergence. Cause there is something called targeting computer in all mechs. Currently it feels like Counter-Strike.

I'd be fine with delayed convergence and feel free to add to that any sundry of recoil and or external accuracy influences (read: topology jossle, ablative damage, speed etc..)

At the end of the day mitigating pin-point damage should be influenced by environmentals not some random chance occurrence... "I" as the pilot should be making decisions to enhance my probabilities to hit where I am... Not hoping I rolled a seven.

[Name140704]

FAIL

in b4 paul

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 26 May 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

Right now 2 Large Lasers = 18 damage spread over 1 second.
2 PPCs = 20 damage pinpoint.

Something's pretty bad here.

What's bad is that forum comparisons often leave out tonnage and crit slots.

2 LLAS = 10 tons, and 4 slots and total 15 heat
vs.
2 PPCs = 14 tons, and 6 slots and total 20 heat


Looks fine to me.


With GH, 3x LLAS loses out vs. the PPCs for the most part however without GH at 3 they'd actually be in a good place.

3x LLAS = 15 tons, and 6 slots, and total 21 heat (w/o GH) for 27 "streaming" damage.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 May 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

you want pinpoint damage fixed? ok lets change it from a sim to a dice game

you do realize you can fix pinpoint damage without introducing any sort of RNG whatsoever right?

[Mystere]

Diablobo, on 26 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

To up the large lasers would cause the rest of the fanboys to whine about their favorite weapon not being raised. PGI would also be sort of admitting that ghost heat is a horrible idea. Not gonna happen.

How is changing the Ghost Heat configuration for one weapon be "admitting that ghost heat is a horrible idea"? Isn't that the kind of tweak they said they could do?

[Koniving]

Ultimatum X, on 26 May 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

What's bad is that forum comparisons often leave out tonnage and crit slots.

2 LLAS = 10 tons, and 4 slots and total 15 heat

Only reason they're colder is because of PGI. They're supposed to be 9 heat.
And they wouldn't have ever needed ghost heat at 9 heat.
Don't forget the firing rate either.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 26 May 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

Only reason they're colder is because of PGI. They're supposed to be 9 heat.
And they wouldn't have ever needed ghost heat at 9 heat.
Don't forget the firing rate either.

Sarna lists the LLAS as 8 heat.

So that means, firing 3x our LLAS with GH = 24 heat.

3x 8 = 24.

Maybe its a coincidence, but that's pretty clever if it isn't.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Re. the discussion of randomized shot deviation.

1 - BattleTech is a setting where, whether due to post-apocalyptic tech level decay or super-advanced integrated countermeasures, it is quite difficult even to hit another mech, let alone concentrate fire on a single point.

2 - A cone of fire does not have to be always-on. Indeed, an always-on CoF would be terrible. Rather, MWO should borrow a concept from the TT, where situational modifiers dynamically reduce precision. Throttle %, heat capacity %, stability state, etc., should all impact just how precise your shots are. Want to land a volley exactly at your aim point? Slow down, cool off, and make sure both feet are firmly on the ground before you take that shot. Need to shoot now because waiting is likely to get you killed/move your target out of the line of fire? Then your shots will deviate around your aimpoint based on how fast you are going, how hot you are running, and whether you are jumping or getting knocked around by enemy fire.

3 - Any CoF-style mechanic should not touch accuracy. Instead, it should only modify precision. Accuracy is how close to the aim point the center of a pattern is. Precision is how small diameter of the pattern is. Accuracy should always be perfect. Precision is what should be changing dynamically based on conditions. Having accuracy change means that pinpoint FLD is still a problem, it just becomes less predictable where that single impact point will be. Precision reduction, though, means that aim still matters a lot, but it reduces pinpoint volley fire by spreading shots around the point of aim.

[Jun Watarase]

3x large lasers are overpowered, 4x ac5s are not. According to PGI anyway.

[M0rpHeu5]

Trying to talk sense into Paul's department?

Good luck

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 26 May 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[Deathlike]

SirLANsalot, on 26 May 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Just use 3 LL then?


Ghost heat is not this evil system that everyone fears. Hell a few of my "go to" mechs are under ghost heat, yet it doesn't effect them much.

3 LL (alpha) is the cost of 3 LL in heat (21) + 3 more heat (an SRM4), with the duration it actually comes out about even due to your heatsinks being able to lessen the "blow" from the heat.
3LPL is a little harder to handle (and is recommended for high skill people only). On hot maps like Terra Therma, its a bit warm to handle, on normal maps and cold ones its fine.

Edit:
The only time you'll do full damage is when the target is shutdown or they don't know how to torso twist. Seriously, if we need to goto extremes, you're wasting time. The average damage for PPCs is far greater than the average damage for Large Lasers if we check our own stats.



case in point. Use Smerfy to look at each weapons heat scale. Weapons like the AC2 the penalty really doesn't start to kick in until you have 5+ and even then its not a major issue till 7. (what i am referring to is where ghost heat starts making you pay, in heat, the cost of another of the same weapon).

Even though 3 LL's incurs a bit closer to 4 points of additional heat... this is actually what makes 2 PPCs MORE DESIRABLE.

20 pts of heat (2 PPCs) vs 24.52 (3 LL with ghost heat penalties, w/o it, it would normally be 21 pts) WITH a 1 ton additional penalty (aka 1 less DHS) because you are running 3 LL vs 2 PPC.

That's the kind of madness that people don't get.

Unless the target is a terrible torso twister, you will virtually NEVER get all 27 points of damage in the place you want with 3 LL. In order to get even REMOTELY the same damage as 2 PPCs IN THE SAME SPOT, you would need to deal 74% (20/27) of the 3 LL's shot into the section of your choice. If the target is a good torso twister, you wouldn't realistically not get HALF of that dealt... and that doesn't begin to cover distance, exposure, and cooldown.

Edit:
The only time 27 pts of damage is actually dealt at once is when the target is clueless (doesn't realize they are being hit) or the target is shutdown. Without even trying to discuss extremes, just check the average damage dealt by lasers vs average damage dealt by PPCs, and that's just a confirmation of the reality we're in.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[kapusta11]

I'd say remove GH altogether, you already punnished, the more heat generating weapons you put in the mech the faster you reach heat cap - the point where your rate of fire dictated not by weapon recycle times but by heat dissipation wich turned out to be just the same as in TT.

Edited by kapusta11, 26 May 2014 - 11:09 PM.

[Black Arachne]

Ghost Heat has to go - and replaced with low heat cap - high dissipation. If it stays LL's need to be increased to 4 (separated from pulses), ERPPC, and PPC's to 3 (so that the Awesome) is not penalized by this garbage system. The Warhawk will have to have it set to 4. Not a single stock build should ever be affected by Ghost Crap.

[Grimmrog]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yes and yet no.

Sure, medium lasers have limited range, but you have to consider that they are ALWAYS bread and butter in most solid builds (even missile boats). You don't really compare the med laser to the Large Laser BECAUSE of the range, tonnage/crit requirements, and damage dealt.

Here's something to think about..

2 PPCs
14 tons
6 crits
20 pts of instant pinpoint damage
20 pts of heat

2 Large Lasers
10 tons
4 crits
18 pts of streaming damage
14 pts of heat

Outside of the obvious, if you had to choose between 2 LL and 2 PPCs to kill the opfor (assuming you both have the same mechs), are you going to go to "try" and snipe them with 2 LL and "try" to get in 90m?

Here's some numbers to ponder:

3 Large Lasers
15 tons
6 crits
27 pts of streaming damage
21 pts of heat

Hmm... doesn't it resemble the 2 PPC loadout? I guess 3 LL > 2 PPCs?

Must be some other game I'm playing for 3 LL to be "OP" over 2 PPC.



Fixed.

and yet no one uses 3 LL over 2 PPC, because PPC's do their job better: delivering the damage where needed.
It wouldn't hurt much to increase lasers to 3. But it may then end up in some crazy mix puilds, where 2PPC 3 LL do crazy stuff.

tbh. They either should remove Ghost heat, and give a fixed heat treshold, depending on mech size:
lights 20
medium 30
heavy 40
assault 50
and make HS actually ONLY do sink heat. Not increasing any treshold. This would make Energy builds go DHS +Infinite (no slot) Ammo while Ballistics keep HS + Ammo.

Or thy should keep ghostheat but rework them to balance metastuff. By reworking the ghostheat categories. So Gauss + AC's should togtether gost heat. Also Gauss + PPC'S should together ghost heat.
Additionally, penalize Overheating a LOT MORE it shoudlhave more serious impact and it should be part of a build and skill avoiding this as hell


I do not understand why my

2xERLL
2xLL
1x PPC Build is penalised with the Ghost heat so much, while I could

2xERLL
1xLL
2xPPC and end up with less ghostheat.

but in real I would want to go

3xERLL
2xLL but this even for beeing the least effective build does generate the worst ghost heat.

Ghostheat was intrduced to prevent alphaspam. But by this loadouts, the alphaspam is still possible. I just need to mix up the weapons. The only thing it does is killing the varriety for going on a laserboat.

So why should an PPC not ghostheat with LL? By that it wouldn't care that much if I go 3x LL or 3x PPK or a mix like 1xPPK 2xLL.

Edited by Grimmrog, 27 May 2014 - 04:04 AM.