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Joysticks Working? (Hey Kon! Help!)


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#1 juxstapo

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:04 PM

I rode the crest of the wave when PGI was halfheartedly implementing joystick support. Then lost my motivation and sprung for a Corsair M60 and Logitech G13 instead.

Keep running across people using joysticks these days however. Have they gotten better or are people just determined to soldier on?

Specifically, the biggest issue for me was the reticle not returning to center. In other words you pull the stick back, the mech aims up, the stick returns to center.... but you'd have to push the stick forward to get the mech to aim back to center. Has that been fixed?

Wanted some feedback before going through the considerable effort of dusting my Saitek X52 Pro, mounting it back to the desk (hate 'em sliding around, hex headed stainless steel bolts were pretty), and remap a plethora of controls.

EDIT: Oooohhh Snap! There's a Hardware subforum now isn't there? Well... shoot.
Sorry, somebody moderate this for me plz.

Edited by juxstapo, 26 May 2014 - 05:06 PM.


#2 Buckminster

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:25 PM

Huh, I never had that "return to center" issue.

Although personally, joystick aiming still just isn't where it's at, unless you have a great zero-order joystick. I use mine off-hand for throttle and turning, and just stick with a mouse for aiming. I really like the setup, it gives me that sim feel without putting me at a disadvantage.

#3 Koniving

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:36 PM

View Postjuxstapo, on 26 May 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Specifically, the biggest issue for me was the reticle not returning to center. In other words you pull the stick back, the mech aims up, the stick returns to center.... but you'd have to push the stick forward to get the mech to aim back to center. Has that been fixed?


This is called a "Look Spring."
PGI has not yet and might never install a look spring. Those are great for First Order controls like flight sticks. But aside from games like Turok (N64), Golden Eye 007, Perfect Dark (N64), Time Splitters even, that kind of thing completely went extinct. Instead, playstation 2, 3, the Xbox 360 and Xbox One all use Zero Order.
Computer mice are also zero order controls, where they manipulate the crosshair or target directly (it moves where you move it).
First order controls like flight sticks 'push' the crosshair/target (you push it towards where you want to go).

The reason a Look Spring works so well with first order controls is in a game like MWO, there's a 'dead center' that you want to return to. Thus, if you push left, the 'software' look spring will allow it until you stop pushing and then will hold back with equal force, allowing you to 'stop' say 25% up and 15% left. The moment you let go, the look spring will then shove your look back to center.
(A similar effect is to use CTRL and look around with the mouse; then hit Shift to have armlock bring the crosshair back -- same concept, except it only forces the crosshair back and not your vision).

Without a look spring if you push 25% left on the stick, you will always be going left at 25% speed. This is fine if you want to keep going forever. But not if you want precision aiming.

MWO was made for Zero Order controls and only has Zero Order support. Devices like your mouse, or a cheap 20 to 30 dollar corded PS3 controller from Walmart will save you 160 dollars on a zero order joystick.

About Turok + look spring in action.
Spoiler


Software could change it. Not sure of any myself though I'm sure it does exist. But it's just easier to get a 20 dollar PS3 controller by Snakebytes.

You can ask how to change a "first order" joystick to a "zero order" joystick.

Or specifically say you want an artificial look spring.

Or make enough noise about a look spring function for joysticks and PGI might get around to it...when they get around to it?

(I'd moderate but I turned it down when asked ages ago; and before MiSs left she discovered I still had partial moderation privileges and I got totally 'fixed'). ^_^ I liked seeing deleted threads. It was kinda sorta cool knowing how often the new player help thread gets spammed with kitchen sale bots. Who buys 'whole kitchens for cheap' from random websites posted on game forums?

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2014 - 07:02 PM.


#4 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostKoniving, on 26 May 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Who buys 'whole kitchens for cheap' from random websites posted on game forums?

You would be surprised. ^_^

#5 Hammerhai

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:26 AM

Most of you will know me as a campaigner for joyssticks.

Except I finally caved after a year and a half and just use HOTAM now. And find it just as difficult to aim cept for the sniping thang ... You DO get used to what you had, for sure.
<le sigh>

#6 trtw

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:06 AM

View Postjuxstapo, on 26 May 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

I rode the crest of the wave when PGI was halfheartedly implementing joystick support. Then lost my motivation and sprung for a Corsair M60 and Logitech G13 instead.

Keep running across people using joysticks these days however. Have they gotten better or are people just determined to soldier on?

Specifically, the biggest issue for me was the reticle not returning to center. In other words you pull the stick back, the mech aims up, the stick returns to center.... but you'd have to push the stick forward to get the mech to aim back to center. Has that been fixed?

Wanted some feedback before going through the considerable effort of dusting my Saitek X52 Pro, mounting it back to the desk (hate 'em sliding around, hex headed stainless steel bolts were pretty), and remap a plethora of controls.




I'm a new player so I can not comment on how joystick support has changed but I started using the Saitek x52 pro with rudder pedals I don't think I will change even if I am at a very slight disadvantage because of it. I have watched enough players now after my death to see how quickly some players can manipulate the crosshairs with what I am assuming is a mouse but I have also watched just as many players overshoot their aimpoint with their mouse. They are stuttering, jittery (if that is a word) or just plain twitchy and they miss just as often as I do. My rudder pedals will torso twist just as fast as a mouse but the joystick lacks the precision with the crosshairs that you can achieve with a mouse. My playstyle does not include sniping, I'm not a metagamer and I am honest enough with myself to know that even with using a mouse I'll never be a top tier in mech pilot (finished 163rd for the lone wolves in this weekend's tourny) so I am ok with my control setup. In the end I have decided that it is more the pilot's skill then their input device that decides how well their matches turn out.

Regardless to all of this I have set up my x52 pro using only the ingame menus. I do not use the software provided by Saitek, I found it clunky and buggy. I do not use any user.cfg changes either but there still may be some gains to be had if I had the patience to work through it. If you already own the equipment I say give it a try. I certainly do not believe that using a hotas setup is the hinderance that it once was.

#7 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:01 PM

I use a Joystick/Nostromo and am satisfied with the way they work in game. Playing a mech with a mouse just seems not much of a challenge. Like the poster above, I can't believe most everybody likes a mouse for primary control. maybe I'm not spectating in the proper player's mech.....

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 27 May 2014 - 05:02 PM.


#8 Koniving

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

View Posttrtw, on 27 May 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

I have watched enough players now after my death to see how quickly some players can manipulate the crosshairs with what I am assuming is a mouse but I have also watched just as many players overshoot their aimpoint with their mouse. They are stuttering, jittery (if that is a word) or just plain twitchy and they miss just as often as I do.


I should mention that this game is not a direct to player sort of game. The clients do not communicate directly with each other in any way (unlike say, Call of Duty for the PC where it literally runs off of someone's computer). As such what you see, what the server sees, and what the other player sees, and where that target is for all three of you are three very different things.

In its simplest terms, every game client is literally asking for permission to do everything.
Player presses forward. Client asks "Can I go forward?" Server says "Yes." Client responds, "I am going forward." Server says "There's a rock, you can't go forward now." Half a second later you get stuck on a rock. "Can I stop?" "Yes." "I am stopping." "I see that you stopped." "Can I turn left?" "Yes." "I am turning left." "I see that you turned left." "Can I stop turning?" "Yes." "I have stopped turning." "I see that you stopped turning." "Can I twist right?" "Yes, but now I have to shove your third person camera into your head because the wall behind you is too close." "Can I zoom?" "...." "...." "Can I zoom?" "...Uh? Oh sorry, I was busy. Yes you can zoom. Twice now." "I am zoomed."

It just keeps going, and going and going, and going.

But the time you see the enemy, the enemy has already moved and reacted. To jump back and forth between the players is like traveling through time. There's lag compensation, though, which helps.

So that player you see shooting the ground? To him, he's shooting his target as close to spot on as he can. If his crosshair turns red, then to the server, he hit. And to you, he missed so blatantly bad that you might mock his aiming skills if you weren't a better person than that. However, he still hit his target provided that his ping is steady.

Here's a comparison of a direct-to-client game like Call of Duty and a server authority like MWO.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 09:44 AM.


#9 Gasoline

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 04:51 AM

View PostShar Wolf, on 26 May 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

You would be surprised. :)

So you're actually redecorating already? :lol:

#10 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 09:28 AM

View PostGasoline, on 28 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

So you're actually redecorating already? :ph34r:

No - however....

1) "Free" advertising
2) FTP games tend to have people with a fair amount of excess money (the "whales"
3) People on the internet are not usually the smartest of people
(see how easy it is to get a virus.... while being so easy to avoid the bulk of viruses)
4) several other reasons which escape my current memory

#11 Napoleon_Blownapart

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:19 AM

i currently play with a thrustmaster t16000m joystick and the tflight hotas x throttle, i use center torso sometimes for the 'look spring' but it moves the whole torso.i can have bad games 60 dmg or great games 1000 dmg.i probably wouldnt play if i had to kb+mouse.





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