300 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Jaguar Prime, on 27 May 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I have to ask,

1. Is poptarting as rampant as it was before the last set of nerfs to it?

2. Are there valid counters to it?

All I ever here is PPCs, everwhere.

Counters? Sure. Take PPCs and ACs, yourself. (and hope you have three other competent pilots on teamspeak to do it with).

That's life at high Elo.

I admit... I spend plenty of time taking joke builds, regardless. It is too easy for me to use sniper 'mechs. It gets boring after a while.

[CDLord HHGD]

The problem isn't jump sniping, the problem is high pinpoint alpha damage. Boating the meta, 2xPPC+2xAC5 delivers 30 pinpoint damage to the target with no immediate way to retaliate over and over again with 3+ people on the enemy team (and maybe yours too) doing the same thing (and let's face it, it's because we cannot easily retaliate is what pisses us off).

Many suggestions have been submitted (including myself) and now we just wait and see what PGI comes up with (if anything at all). We'll either get a more balanced game or we'll be right back here next week.

[Mister Blastman]

Asmudius Heng, on 27 May 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

So is this thread just a lot of name calling? Skimmed it a bit and its getting rediculous.

In any case my opinion for what it is worth:

1. Jump sniping is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in a mechwarrior game and adds a great deal of depth and skill when done right.
2. Jump sniping is not done right in MWO.
3. Jump jets should be primarily for mobility advantage

Hehe, if only players here could go back and play Mechwarrior 2 or Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries online. Well, they can, but most wouldn't spend the time getting Hamachi/Kali setup to play through IPX...

But if they DID, they'd find that jumping gave huge advantages even then. The difference was... You didn't jump and hide behind cover. You jumped... and never touched the ground again. We went total Veritech, baby! That is... if you were good enough.

See flying required skill. Lots of skill. Of course... we didn't have macro mice and macro keyboards then. You had to do it all by hand. You had to manually time every single press of the "j" key. You had to manage altitude with a single button. You had to control your hang time. You had to control your fuel usage. All with one key. If you did it right... you could fly literally for minutes at a time.

Flying in one direction wasn't a good idea, though. So you had to manage your altitude just right to skip off the ground and change direction (because vectored thrusting in the air burned too much gas--however you could do it if absolutely needed). The first one to run out of juice... heheheh... you better hope you were close to the enemy because if you weren't... game over man.

Those games were exceptionally difficult to be good at. But damn, they were a hell of a lot of fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

The problem isn't jump sniping, the problem is high pinpoint alpha damage. Boating the meta, 2xPPC+2xAC5 delivers 30 pinpoint damage to the target with no immediate way to retaliate over and over again with 3+ people on the enemy team (and maybe yours too) doing the same thing (and let's face it, it's because we cannot easily retaliate is what pisses us off).

Many suggestions have been submitted (including myself) and now we just wait and see what PGI comes up with (if anything at all). We'll either get a more balanced game or we'll be right back here next week.

Look for more complaining next week.

[Mister Blastman]

CaptainDeez, on 27 May 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

That seems like more of an issue with a specific group of weapons than with the jumpjets. What about people who are pop-tarting with LLs?

They don't see any of those advantages. Seems to me better balancing of those particular weapons is more of the issue than whether or not they are attached to jumpjets.

You don't poptart with LLs. It's too easy to have the beam broken by terrain obstructions or spread your damage. Unless you have full jets and massive hangtime... but then you are a sitting duck...

[Mister Blastman]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

The fact this game mechanic makes balancing weapons impossible and makes skill irrelevant will indeed lead to that.

Thankfully, PGI could solve all of that. Shame some poor players who can't adapt to the proper IP will leave. Perhaps COD is better suited for your caliber.

I offered them solutions in July 2012--and was quite vocal about them. They ignored every single one. All of them would have gone great lengths to making this a better game.

I think PGI just doesn't care. Not 'til they run out of money, at least...

[Sable]

Woh, when i went to bed i never expected to come back with 10 pages of responses. Pages 3-7 were kinda a waste because of peekaboo but at least the topic got back on track.

Look, i like PPCs too. They sound cool, they look cool but i reached a point where i realized they were just too good. PGI ended up realizing it too and slowed them down a bit, added heat back to them, and things seemed to calm down. The game became fun again for a while.

I would read about the jump sniping posts in the forums and think to myself its not that bad. But now It feels like its gotten to a point that is rediculous. Its greatly effecting my desire to play to the point that if they completely removed it the game would be fun again. I know those kinds of feelings are an overreaction to one type of tactic but this really needs to be addressed. I do appreciate all the ideas people are throwing around. I've never personally felt like convergence would be the answer and i tend to lean more towards how the individual weapon systems perform. Like i said in my original post the two ideas i find myself leaning towards the most are slower moving PPCs and burst fire autocannons (multiple shells vs single shells). If PPCs slowed down to the speed of an AC10 and the ACs shot burst fire (AC10 shot 5 2-damage shells, AC5 shot 5 1-damage shells, ect). This would make long range jump sniping much less prominent at putting all the damage in one spot and would generally be much more difficult of a tactic.

I say this about the speed because i have an AC 10 on a few of my mechs and at ranges above 600m i do find i have to lead the target quite a bit in order to land those hits. If i had to do that with PPCs while floating in the air it would be much more difficult to be a jump sniper.

Edited by Sable, 28 May 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Is there a lore reference to jump sniping? I don't recall reading anything about it in the plethora of novels that I own and have read (both physical and PDF). If so, please provide the reference so I can read/research it.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Karl Streiger, on 27 May 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

Only the bad ones - the good - (look at the tournament) are mobile as hell.
Fully exposed - if necessary waist down, but Mechs like the 3D - can give you a double PPC shot - and you hardly see a quarter.
- I don't like poptarting at all, but i don't have problems in PUG matches, even use the 3D from time to time - as mobile strike unit with pop tarting capability

Yep the issue really isn't poptarting in general because a few per match aren't an issue, it's the mentality behind an entire team willing to abuse them for the sake of winning that has players quitting partially because of their attitudes, and because bad game design allows for it. Too much of anything in MWO such as boats, tarts, lights, etc has a superior advantage in a game that revolves around variety and quite frankly it sucks, but players can't earn bills in stock queues and that sucks even more. Damned if you do, damned if you don't the way things have developed for everyone.

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Is there a lore reference to jump sniping? I don't recall reading anything about it in the plethora of novels that I own and have read (both physical and PDF). If so, please provide the reference so I can read/research it.

To my reading as well CD. That doesn't mean we should not use something that is tactically sound. I personally agree it's not Canon, but if that is my only reason, it is not reason enough to me.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 May 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

To my reading as well CD. That doesn't mean we should not use something that is tactically sound. I personally agree it's not Canon, but if that is my only reason, it is not reason enough to me.

My interest was in application of the tactic, for research purposes only. I agree it's a viable tactic and should be available. I have always maintained that boating the meta was the true root cause of the issue.

[Karl Streiger]

of cause you hardly have real poptarts in novels but you have lots of weapon usage in midair and often the shooter is exposed completely. hm can't say exactly but those arcade hall rangers from the Capplan Solution or a book where there was a pillager.
and of course you have even the 2.5sec rounds of S7 games where you are in midair at the end of some rounds.


if poptarting would be more ellegant or the earlier authors would have played MW4 or MWO before writing you also may have poptarts in novels

but its still a cowardish not stylish behavior and you don't want to have such stufg in your book

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

My interest was in application of the tactic, for research purposes only. I agree it's a viable tactic and should be available. I have always maintained that boating the meta was the true root cause of the issue.

I don't know. No matter what a DEV will do, there will always be a dominant weapon/tactic. That may change if the DEVs are good but it will NEVER disappear. We started to have a 2 prong Meta Missiles v AC/PPC and there was a huge outcry cause we had 2 effective ways to kill each other. Imagine that...

[CDLord HHGD]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

I don't know. No matter what a DEV will do, there will always be a dominant weapon/tactic. That may change if the DEVs are good but it will NEVER disappear. We started to have a 2 prong Meta Missiles v AC/PPC and there was a huge outcry cause we had 2 effective ways to kill each other. Imagine that...

There are lots of ways to kill each other. The meta reduces TTK to the bare minimum. This is how the human mind thinks, how we fight real wars, etc. I don't think it's good for the game however where they have already doubled armor to increase survivability. The problem with the armor buff is it nerfed ammo. So now we run with 200% armor and ~150% ammo (from TT). Rumor has it another nerf is coming Thursday (?) to try to deal with this as well. Like all the other countermeasures though, I fear it'll miss the mark and cause just more issues. Ghost heat can be good, but it needs redesigned. Hardpoints are good, but they may need a re-visit. Pinpoint vs cone of fire is another idea floated.

Its like dirty code.... Code that just keeps getting added to without anything being removed and revamped and cleaned up/commented out. We have a convoluted cluster of workarounds. Half the community says there's a serious issue, the other have says to conform or die. Only PGI has the data to say for sure and they haven't released it. So here we are..... Fighting the good fights for our causes.

[Mister Blastman]

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

There are lots of ways to kill each other. The meta reduces TTK to the bare minimum. This is how the human mind thinks, how we fight real wars, etc. I don't think it's good for the game however where they have already doubled armor to increase survivability. The problem with the armor buff is it nerfed ammo. So now we run with 200% armor and ~150% ammo (from TT). Rumor has it another nerf is coming Thursday (?) to try to deal with this as well. Like all the other countermeasures though, I fear it'll miss the mark and cause just more issues. Ghost heat can be good, but it needs redesigned. Hardpoints are good, but they may need a re-visit. Pinpoint vs cone of fire is another idea floated.

Its like dirty code.... Code that just keeps getting added to without anything being removed and revamped and cleaned up/commented out. We have a convoluted cluster of workarounds. Half the community says there's a serious issue, the other have says to conform or die. Only PGI has the data to say for sure and they haven't released it. So here we are..... Fighting the good fights for our causes.

I think it is possible to have multiple ways to kill each other. The original StarCraft did this well. So did vanilla Supreme Commander. We just need developers who are aggressive about it rather than nonchalantly deciding to "normalize" weapons here and there.

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

There are lots of ways to kill each other. The meta reduces TTK to the bare minimum. This is how the human mind thinks, how we fight real wars, etc. I don't think it's good for the game however where they have already doubled armor to increase survivability. The problem with the armor buff is it nerfed ammo. So now we run with 200% armor and ~150% ammo (from TT). Rumor has it another nerf is coming Thursday (?) to try to deal with this as well. Like all the other countermeasures though, I fear it'll miss the mark and cause just more issues. Ghost heat can be good, but it needs redesigned. Hardpoints are good, but they may need a re-visit. Pinpoint vs cone of fire is another idea floated.

Its like dirty code.... Code that just keeps getting added to without anything being removed and revamped and cleaned up/commented out. We have a convoluted cluster of workarounds. Half the community says there's a serious issue, the other have says to conform or die. Only PGI has the data to say for sure and they haven't released it. So here we are..... Fighting the good fights for our causes.

I'm of a different mind though CD. I have no trouble killing my enemy quickly, and in return am fine if I die Suddenly as well. its a combat game. If I hit you hard enough and your armor is weak enough you should die quick and clean. It is part of being small and lightly armored.

[CDLord HHGD]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

I'm of a different mind though CD. I have no trouble killing my enemy quickly, and in return am fine if I die Suddenly as well. its a combat game. If I hit you hard enough and your armor is weak enough you should die quick and clean. It is part of being small and lightly armored.

The problem from my point of view is your qualifiers don't apply. If I am running around in a light and my leg gets vaped, then so be it. But with the meta, we have fully armored atlas' going down too quickly. And it's not just the ones leading the charge, it also happens to the ones playing defensively too... When 3+ of the enemy team is meta builds and they decide to focus fire an atlas, that atlas is going down. Now, focus fire is good teamwork and teamwork is good. I do not want to hurt team work. I just think based on my knowledge of the lore that the attackers shouldn't be alpha-striking every ~4 seconds for 30+ points of damage each (and I know I am only pointing out just one of the meta builds here.. There are others.). And lets face it, I know we've lost players to this because they cannot get used to the game before dieing and without new players, our game will die.

Still comes down to those who think the meta is fine, conform or die, and those who think that there's a serious problem here.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

I'm of a different mind though CD. I have no trouble killing my enemy quickly, and in return am fine if I die Suddenly as well. its a combat game. If I hit you hard enough and your armor is weak enough you should die quick and clean. It is part of being small and lightly armored.

Being in an Atlas makes one die just as fast, if not faster than a Light.

[C E Dwyer]

nimdabew, on 27 May 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Why not just put in the wandering reticule while in the air. Jumping and firing is still possible, but you won't be able to aim that well while in the air (like, I dunno, real life). Jump from a trampoline and try to shoot a pistol (don't actually do this, that is incredibly dangerous).

Its the recoil that makes this dangerous, lasers don't have recoil or ppc or gauss, and both your way, and Bishops while they would make poptart/jumpsnipe hard if not impossible it extracts yet another layer of physic's from the game (I'm not going to call it realism as whats real about 40 feet tall mech shooting the bejesus out of each other) as its the jets on the mech causing the shake, and would gimp all lights, fly by twist shot.

Come down to another suggestion by a person who's name I forget(sorry) who got slammed by a few people here for suggesting large and small weapons hard points.

I didn't agree with all his choices, of what was large and small, but this is really the 'easiest' way of changing things and not gimping lights.

Another is to blanket ban torso mounted PPC's on anything but the ShadowHawk -K, Awesomes and Cicada -3C, which would have them as a perk. nope sorry not the spider, the variant that had a PPC used a light ppc tech not yet in game.

This is my preferred method for reasons bellow.

It doesn't stop jump sniping completely ( it makes the game dull, but I'm against something being completely taken out) but it does increase the risk and lower the reward, and I'm sure most would stop using it as lasers won't cut it even pulses.

It tips its hat to canon which seperates mechwarrior from other stompy robot games.

The torso weapons being smaller makes the engineering of ammo feeds to arms slightly less insane and a little back to reality, though belt or clip feeds through internals that bend and not jam is still freaking impossible.

ohh and while i'm changing things the biggest auto canons on Jagers should be the ac10, its designed to be an anti aircraft mech not deal with recoil from big anti mech/.tank weapons, and ac5 on blackjacks because its a small mech, and while the game mechanics allows ac20's it its just so dumb .(yeah I have a ac20, 3ml BJ, its the closest to cheese I have, but its just not right)

[elitewolverine]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

I don't think it would be better. Though Jump sniping has no foundation in TT, As some of my friends from Armor Brigades have pointed out. The tactic is no different that Abrams doing Berm Drills. So though it is a pain in the ash for us non hill jumpers, it is a variation of a known fighting tactic.

The Panther is one very viable jump sniping mech, and yes even in lore/tt

"Their first large-scale use by Kurita warriors came during the First Succession War in the battle for Quentin, when the 2nd Legion of Vega used their Panthers to severely maul the slower, heavier 'Mechs of the 42nd Avalon Hussars while avoiding return fire."

In the TT you can jump snipe idea since it is a turn based representation...


"If anyone ever worried whether Ahrmram would be able to keep up with the flow of battle in such a small 'Mech, they don't any longer. It is the colonel's command group that has to keep up with him as he jumps from front to front keeping personal tabs on the battle and participating, if necessary. More than once, Ahrmram's gunnery skill has helped turn the tide of battle."

These are examples of jump sniping in TT/Lore