39 replies to this topic

[DjPush]

This game is tough!! I have been trying to make my mechs so that they will work for all ranges. Layered combat like I have read so many times before. I would like to chip away at mechs from long range with a PPC or ER large and yet still be able to brawl with an LBX, ML or SRMs when I get closer. Most of my builds are pretty heat efficient and have a decent DPS. First couple of rounds when my nights start go ok, but 3 or 4 rounds in I start to notice that I cant even get close enough to the enemy. Im usually dead from PPC/AC or Gauss rifles. The trend continues and I end up just getting so frustrated that I quit.

How do I beat these types of builds without making one myself?

[Ngamok]

Patience to be honest. If the enemy team is all jump snipers, you just have to make them come to you and then it negates the PPC fire if you can get in close enough.

[CDLord HHGD]

Keep fighting the good fight and hopefully PGI will realize that MechWarrior isn't about meta.

[Mcgral18]

To beat meta, you have to get close. Under 90M, or have enough armor to absorb the PPCs until they overheat or reach the heat ceiling.

If you want to kill fast, it's normally best to avoid spread damage. If you want to avoid PPCs, next best choice is ACs and lasers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

To beat meta, you have to get close. Under 90M, or have enough armor to absorb the PPCs until they overheat or reach the heat ceiling.

If you want to kill fast, it's normally best to avoid spread damage. If you want to avoid PPCs, next best choice is ACs and lasers.

but it also requires coordination. Meta, 1v1, really is not that powerful. I'm sorry, a DS with 2 PPC and 2 AC5, in a duel? Only if it's a top shelf pilot does that make me sweat a little.

But when 3-4 of them are together coordinating, it becomes very powerful. So even getting close, lest you have help, is usually a 1 way ticket, and it ain't to paradise. But it is pretty priceless the "OH CRAP" pause so many poptarts have when you come around the corner of their cover in a BoomJager.

[Koniks]

What mechs and loadouts are you running? A balanced loadout means that at any given range, there is a loadout that can do more damage faster than you.

However, most weapons have an overlapping range band. That's where you need to be to deliver the most damage. e.g. if you're running streaks and LRMs, your optimal range is between 180-270m, unless you have the streak range module.

Which means you need to also run an engine with sufficient speed (80kph+ in an assault or heavy, 90kph+ in a medium) to keep you there.

Edited by Mizeur, 27 May 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

DjPush, on 27 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

This game is tough!! I have been trying to make my mechs so that they will work for all ranges. Layered combat like I have read so many times before. I would like to chip away at mechs from long range with a PPC or ER large and yet still be able to brawl with an LBX, ML or SRMs when I get closer. Most of my builds are pretty heat efficient and have a decent DPS. First couple of rounds when my nights start go ok, but 3 or 4 rounds in I start to notice that I cant even get close enough to the enemy. Im usually dead from PPC/AC or Gauss rifles. The trend continues and I end up just getting so frustrated that I quit.

How do I beat these types of builds without making one myself?

You dont. The game is so poorly balanced that a metabuild (what you are facing) has a 100% chance of killing any non metabuild (all other factors being equal).

A 65 ton jagermech boating ACs will outdps a 100 ton Atlas. Ive gone toe to toe with full hp Atlases in a 4x AC5 CTF-4X and easily won.

Infact heres a video of a 55 ton shadowhawk with 3 AC5s outdpsing a 90 ton Highlander. The shadowhawk does 15 pinpoint near instant damage every 1.66 seconds and never has to worry about overheating, while the Highlander has lasers/SRMs which generate way more heat and fire much slower, in addition to doing spread damage.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 27 May 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

You dont. The game is so poorly balanced that a metabuild (what you are facing) has a 100% chance of killing any non metabuild (all other factors being equal).

A 65 ton jagermech boating ACs will outdps a 100 ton Atlas. Ive gone toe to toe with full hp Atlases in a 4x AC5 CTF-4X and easily won.

Infact heres a video of a 55 ton shadowhawk with 3 AC5s outdpsing a 90 ton Highlander. The shadowhawk does 15 pinpoint near instant damage every 1.66 seconds and never has to worry about overheating, while the Highlander has lasers/SRMs which generate way more heat and fire much slower, in addition to doing spread damage.

...no twisting whatsoever.

[Khobai]

Quote

A 65 ton jagermech boating ACs will outdps a 100 ton Atlas. Ive gone toe to toe with full hp Atlases in a 4x AC5 CTF-4X and easily won.

The Atlas isnt known for its DPS though. Even in tabletop the Atlas has a terrible weapons configuration. What the Atlas is known for is tanking tremendous amounts of damage. However with pinpoint damage being so precise, half of the Atlas' armor gets completely bypassed simply by shooting its torso sections out.

[Jun Watarase]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

...no twisting whatsoever.

You left out the part where the shadowhawk can just hold down the trigger button and win a DPS race with a 35 ton disadvantage and no need for heat management.

Maybe you should ask battletech players how they feel about this scenario. Try #battletech on irc.rizon.net.

Khobai, on 27 May 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

The Atlas isnt known for its DPS though. Even in tabletop the Atlas has a terrible weapons configuration. What the Atlas is known for is tanking tremendous amounts of damage. However with pinpoint damage being so precise, half of the Atlas' armor gets completely bypassed simply by shooting its torso sections out.

In the fluff the Atlas has a "ok" weapons configuration....its just that with predominantly short ranged weapons on a 3/5 mech, people just kite it with ease in the tabletop. In the tabletop, people generally favor the long range Atlas variants...which have the massive armor, range and damage to be a serious threat on the battlefield.

None of that applies to MWO however, because the Atlas cant boat PPCs/Ballistics so it sucks.

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

You left out the part where the shadowhawk can just hold down the trigger button and win a DPS race with a 35 ton disadvantage and no need for heat management.

Maybe you should ask battletech players how they feel about this scenario. Try #battletech on irc.rizon.net.

And ignore bad piloting? That's not how this works. Twist every now and then and hope that pilot just as bad and that he'll waste shots on your arms or STs; then blow his left torso off. He'll be a stick after that.

[RAM]

Anyone else beginning to wonder if junadvice is merely given to keep other players down so he does not need to L2P himself?

Proper piloting prevents piss poor performance.

In general the AS7 will have both higher burst damage and sustained DPS compared to the CTF; however the AS7's energy & missiles spread more than the CTF's ballistics. Nevertheless the AS7 also has more armour & internals.

A video of a bad HGN build piloted poorly getting pwn'd by a good SHD build piloted well really does not prove anything.


RAM
ELH

[Jun Watarase]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

And ignore bad piloting? That's not how this works. Twist every now and then and hope that pilot just as bad and that he'll waste shots on your arms or STs; then blow his left torso off. He'll be a stick after that.

I think the point just sailed past your head and into the water.

This really is not hard. If both players are torso twisting, guess who still wins? The one who can fire infinitely without overheating and do pinpoint damage. Duh.

And you are still ignoring the point that a 55 ton mech shouldnt outdps a 90 ton mech in a pointblank confrontation, especially given that one is built for long range combat and the other is built for pure brawling. This is common sense.

[Forte]

Mizeur, on 27 May 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

What mechs and loadouts are you running? A balanced loadout means that at any given range, there is a loadout that can do more damage faster than you.

However, most weapons have an overlapping range band. That's where you need to be to deliver the most damage. e.g. if you're running streaks and LRMs, your optimal range is between 180-270m, unless you have the streak range module.

Which means you need to also run an engine with sufficient speed (80kph+ in an assault or heavy, 90kph+ in a medium) to keep you there.

Your assaults are flying brother.

[Flaming oblivion]

You have to live with pinpoint meta there is no defence if this game was balanced . around 40% of my games whether I win or lose wouldn't have the winning team all att 300-400 damage plus, and the losing team for the most part under 100 damage at best a couple barely breaking 200. Balance...

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think the point just sailed past your head and into the water.

This really is not hard. If both players are torso twisting, guess who still wins? The one who can fire infinitely without overheating and do pinpoint damage. Duh.

And you are still ignoring the point that a 55 ton mech shouldnt outdps a 90 ton mech in a pointblank confrontation, especially given that one is built for long range combat and the other is built for pure brawling. This is common sense.

Well, lets see how much damage can be output in 1 second. SHD gets 15 damage, frontloaded.

You have 16 SRM+ART tubes, or 32 damage. Lets assume 70% hitreg which brings that down to ~22 damage. 2 LPLs gets you 21.2 damage.

So, 43.2 damage spread over multiple torsi VS 15 pinpoint. Your weapons have long recycles in comparison to the AC5s...so why the hell were you staring at him the whole time? You output nearly 3 times hit damage per alpha, yet were taking absolutely no defensive actions.

That's why you lost.

[FupDup]

I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with MWO. I basically play in "spurts" every few days or weeks, for a few hours a day. And then after a few days of that I get bored and wait for the next interval. Of course, I play the forums full-time because Forumwarrior™ is one of the best games ever made.

[Jun Watarase]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Well, lets see how much damage can be output in 1 second. SHD gets 15 damage, frontloaded.

You have 16 SRM+ART tubes, or 32 damage. Lets assume 70% hitreg which brings that down to ~22 damage. 2 LPLs gets you 21.2 damage.

So, 43.2 damage spread over multiple torsi VS 15 pinpoint. Your weapons have long recycles in comparison to the AC5s...so why the hell were you staring at him the whole time? You output nearly 3 times hit damage per alpha, yet were taking absolutely no defensive actions.

That's why you lost.

I see you are going to continue ignoring how ridiculous it is that a 55 ton mech in a long range config can outdps a 90 ton mech in a brawler config at less than 100 meters. If thats the case, i will just stop responding to you.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

That's why you lost.

[Artgathan]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

You dont. The game is so poorly balanced that a metabuild (what you are facing) has a 100% chance of killing any non metabuild (all other factors being equal).

A 65 ton jagermech boating ACs will outdps a 100 ton Atlas. Ive gone toe to toe with full hp Atlases in a 4x AC5 CTF-4X and easily won.

Infact heres a video of a 55 ton shadowhawk with 3 AC5s outdpsing a 90 ton Highlander. The shadowhawk does 15 pinpoint near instant damage every 1.66 seconds and never has to worry about overheating, while the Highlander has lasers/SRMs which generate way more heat and fire much slower, in addition to doing spread damage.

1: SRM hit detection is not good. All things equal, that Highlander actually out-dps-es the Shadowhawk, because SRM6 have the same DPS as AC/5. So... Yeah. This is more a pinpoint vs spread argument.

2: No torso twisting (as mentioned above).

3: Only 2 LPL and 3 ASRM6 on a Highlander? Wow. I'm not sure that can actually be called an assault mech.

Edited by Artgathan, 27 May 2014 - 11:40 AM.