35 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

AC20 > LB20X at critting. Its simple math.

When an AC20 hits internals, it rolls for crit, and if it crits 1-3 items are automatically destroyed.

When an LB20X hits internals, only the pellets that actually hit the exposed internals get to roll for crits, of those pellets about 67% will crit for 2-6 damage, but that 2-6 damage will be distributed randomly among all the items in the hit location. So theres no guarantee that youll even destroy one item. While the AC20 guarantees you destroy 1-3 items on a crit.

But WAIT it gets even better for the AC20. Even if an AC20 only does 1 point of damage to internals, it still gets to roll for crits doing its full damage. If an AC20 does 1 damage to your internals, it can still destroy 1-3 items on a crit! This is a huge advantage for the AC20 since its far more likely to breach armor than the LB20X. This is one of the major reasons why PPCs and AC20s are so good. Because even the slighest damage to your internals by these weapons can destroy items. its a major flaw in the crit system but its unlikely PGI will ever fix it.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Koniving]

Lans, just so you know...

SirLANsalot, on 28 May 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

In game you would be able to just hit the button (like ECM can with counter/disrupt) forcing a reload of the weapon to change between the two.

This is where the problem rests.
The button, man, it don't work!

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

AC20 > LB20X at critting. Its simple math.
When an AC20 hits internals, it rolls for crit, and if it crits 1-3 items are automatically destroyed.

(Correction to myself here...)
The AC/20 crits up to 3 items, but the chances are so slim it's almost (48% out of 100%, every 4 seconds... Accumulating that, most mechs survive 2 to 3 shots of an AC/20 to internals. So out of 3 possible chances, each one has less than 50% chance of occurring.. You'd have more luck with a burst fire mechanic; meaning there's a strong chance Ultras will crit better).
LB crits several items (with the LB 10, up to 30 maximum separate crit hits, for 1 damage per crit).

AC/20 does destroy something if it crits. The actual crit chance for a single crit is pretty low.

Depending on how many 'pellets' the LB 20 uses (whether 20 pellets at 1 damage each, 10 at 2 damage each, 5 at 4 damage each), the results could vary. Something tells me LB 20 won't use 20 (it'd be up to a maximum of 60 crits per LB-20).

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually, the AC/20 crits 1 item for 1 to 3 times damage.

No it can crit three seperate items. Crits rolls seperately to see what items they land on.

heres the critical hit flowchart:

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

No it can crit three seperate items. Crits rolls seperately to see what items they land on.

Yeah I went back and looked it up. But the chances of critting even once for most weapons is very slim. (As in I almost never see it happen. And I frequently wind up like this.)


Btw the guy that killed the Banshee chasing me -- had no weapons to do it with. You're awesome, Orion pilot!
No crit padding, bare minimum heatsinks, always ran out of ammo (except for the MG; just had that destroyed) with the arm going off. None of the other weapons were destroyed just out of ammo.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah I went back and looked it up. But the chances of critting even once for most weapons is very slim.

No its 42% to crit at least once.

When a PPC hits your internals it has a 25% chance for 1 crit, a 14% chance for 2 crits, and a 3% chance for 3 crits. For a total chance of 42% to get at least one crit. So the chance isnt slim at all.

So if a PPC hits you and breaches your armor by 1 point of damage. It has a 42% chance of taking out at least one item. But it could potentially destroy three items (rare but it can happen).

This is one of the reasons PPCs/AC20s are such effective weapons because they knock out items like crazy.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Lootee]

Lol. wTF, over?


I thought CryENGINE was designed for FPS type games? Every single FPS ever made since the original Doom was able to switch from a single shot weapon to a shotgun and back again with zero problems.

I'm sure Duke Nukem Forever has some code they could rip off to change from single shot to shotgun and back while keeping track of two ammo counts.

Unbelievable.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 28 May 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

While true, it will take 10 pellets to all hit the same component to destroy it. The A20 can destroy 3 things in a single shot assuming the target had 19 armor or less.

In the same situation, the LB20x might get a single crit damage.

That's why I was intended to use slug rounds. Cluster sounds cool for lights/mediums, but the spread would be so dramatic that you'd need to be literally point blank. No thanks. The exception to this is the LB2X. It'd be amusing to see a shotgun spread of a weapon with the same characteristics of a standard AC2. Effective? Perhaps not, but in groups it might be interesting.

What I don't understand is why they have ammo switching problems. The Crysis series didn't seem to have that issue. What changed with the engine?

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 28 May 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[FupDup]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 28 May 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

--

What I don't understand is why they have ammo switching problems. The Crysis series didn't seem to have that issue. What changed with the engine?

The people developing the game.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

The people developing the game.

Alternate firing modes: Lostech

[General Taskeen]

I find it funny they openly talk about their inability to do program something or the various problems (matchmaker) in a developer blog...

Fire modes is a feature in the Crysis engine, it was built for FPS at its roots. Many games have it as a feature. Even tank simulators (or games with tanks) had physically different rounds you could load into your cannon and switch between them in combat.

As far as what he is talking about, it sounds more like they are having trouble programming loading two separate ammo types. On a TT record sheet, a Kitfox only used 1 ton of cluster (Edit: Had to recheck, its actually 1 ton of Slug), but I imagine they'll make it so its a button press and suddenly you can do either or. On other record sheets, it does clearly show (standard) and (cluster) loaded onto the same 'Mech (example ANH-2A). Another example is an IS 'Mech which has 2 tons for its LB 10-X. 1 ton is cluster, 1 ton is standard (slug), same with a CTF-3D.

Whatever they are doing... clusters won't be used regardless. Pin-Point is the name of the game, and nature of their game, when needing to destroy something fast. And as soon as people get to play with it, the forums will explode with "give me standard for IS LB-X PGI."

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 May 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[Khobai]

It sounds like its going to physically change weapons when you push the button. So like itll just change from Clan AC20 to Clan LB20X. Theyll be two seperate weapons that you can switch between that both use the same ammo.

[Cimarb]

Alexandrix, on 28 May 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

The simplest way to do it,is to just give the gun an "alternate" firing mode,kinda like ECM can swap modes.

This is my preferred method as well. Use the same ammo, just have it fire in a cluster or burst, depending on mode.

t9nv3, on 28 May 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Honestly, we all know that one type will always be more useful/efficient than the others. People will figure out which one woks best and the other will be dropped from existence. Just give us slug rounds and call it a day.

I am still holding out hopes that they do NOT have slug versions, as (relatively) no one would use them as cluster weapons ever again. Based upon Paul's comments regarding further nerfing IS weapons, I'm hopeful that they will also be implementing the CLBX as cluster/burst, instead of cluster/slug. That would also mean the ranges could stay the same between modes, btw.

Roadkill, on 28 May 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Don't think of it as ammo, think of it as a number of shots. Each ton gives you 15 "shots" and you can choose (via toggle) whether that shot comes out as cluster or burst. That should be relatively easy to code, and is sufficient for me to not break immersion.

And like Alexandrix said, if that's deemed "too powerful" then reduce the shots/ton to 12 or something.

Also agreed, but FTFY

[Augustus Martelus II]

lol....no.

Lets shoot bacon!

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

My thoughts,

Cart Horse

[Trauglodyte]

If I had to guess, the way that they're going to have to code this to get around the ammo swapping issue is to make it so that when you equip an LB, or I guess we could/should throw the UACs in there as well, you end up with two weapons in your weapon list. You'd then assign each to a group with them sharing the same cool down. Fire as scatter and you force the recycle on the slug and vice versa. It isn't the most elegant of solutions but was something that I suggested that they do for the UAC and the LB back in Beta.