123 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

It's not fully formed but your points are pitfalls to look at. As for the JJ's the one real argument for weapons turning off is that it is canon at least to TT. but forced max desynch while jumping almost certainly deals with the problem nicely i feel.

The problem is, like I said, that there would be some "collateral damage." I don't think many people would call my Shadow Hawk OP while jumping through the air, shooting people in close quarters. Especially because I prefer to use lasers and missiles (I wuv my shiney new 2K variant) rather than "FLD" weapons.

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Hill humpers on the other hand would be fine until somebody forces them to move through maneuver or at least that's the idea.

Hence why I prefer some sort of convergence system that doesn't discriminate based on movement mode or speed. It would/should affect all the high alphas equally, no matter if you're on land or in the air, standing still or blazing at 200 kph.

[InspectorG]

Why do people assume Assaults should be able to easily 'deal' with lights?
Does it not create a balance: light<meduim<heavy<assault<light... Balance doesnt matter now because: no tonnage/bv limits hence an inbuilt 'penalty' to use light or specially medium mechs despite being more common in lore(i think...).

Really visualize the scenario: a commando or some such is 50m away from an atlas zipping around, staggering its speed, weaving between terrain.
You expect the tall atlas to be able to turn faster than the light to swing the opposing arm across its body, which the model looks like it cant even physically do, line up with the other outstretched arm, align with the right hip ac20 and hit all at once in one spot???? Sounds a bit crazy and physically impossible(yeah in a fictional universe no less, lol)

Im going by memory here but, i TT movement increased the difficulty of hitting the enemy AND being hit.
'lag shields' for those fast enough, the trade off was various pilot rolls and better gunnery skill needed to hit your target.

I would say as im sure others have: only time you get fld pinpoint is if both parties are stationary. No jumping either cuz that aint stationary. Leaves it possible but adds risk and makes overheating way more detrimental in a brawl.

Dont get rid of shooting and jumping, cuz its fun. Do include cone of fire for jumpshotting. Lights live via the jump strafe but have to pay for it by using lasers/spray paint.
Jump snipe victors can jump snipe still but the shots will scatter.

[Agent of Change]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

The problem is, like I said, that there would be some "collateral damage." I don't think many people would call my Shadow Hawk OP while jumping through the air, shooting people in close quarters. Especially because I prefer to use lasers and missiles (I wuv my shiney new 2K variant) rather than "FLD" weapons.



Hence why I prefer some sort of convergence system that doesn't discriminate based on movement mode or speed. It would/should affect all the high alphas equally, no matter if you're on land or in the air, standing still or blazing at 200 kph.

I'm inclined to agree with your thoughts. I didn't say i had all the answers, just that i knew what the problem was.

I'm pleased with the discussion so far though. I'd love it if this just became a clearing house of those proposals, mainly cause I want to read peoples ideas on solving this.

[Mystere]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

That Fixed distance convergence, movement affected convergence, Cone of fire, et al. are in fact less e-sport viable. That is a bit of a fallacy because it make a false equivalency. All of those things would be a problem if MWO was supposed to be a twitch FPS, which MW isn’t supposed to be. Granted it could be done badly and be very random or done very well and create choices and different skill sets that require more than drag mouse and click to alpha.

All I can say is:

**** eSport!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Any movement-based precision reduction needs to follow two rules:

1 - Base it on throttle %. Raw speed would either make it meaningless for slow builds, or break the game for fast builds. % means you can have the same penalty for a light as for an assault.

2 - Include stability state as a stacking contributor. Both feet on the ground? No penalty. Falling? Some deviation. JJs burning? A whole lot of deviation. You could also add received impulse and even recently fired large weapons (PPCs, AC10/20, Gauss) as stability modifiers.

Edit - I also favor having a minimum decay period for these penalties, so if you JJ up and then go into freefall, you start the freefall period at full JJ penalty and it declines over, say, 2s to the falling penalty level (until you land, when it decays over, say, 2s to no penalty). This makes it much harder for kangaroo pogo-stick play to land precise, pinpoint volley fire.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 28 May 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm inclined to agree with your thoughts. I didn't say i had all the answers, just that i knew what the problem was.

I'm pleased with the discussion so far though. I'd love it if this just became a clearing house of those proposals, mainly cause I want to read peoples ideas on solving this.

Well, to re-link what I said earlier, the proposal I like the most is Homeless Bill's.

http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

The nutshell is this:

• Your mech now has a Targeting Computer Load, indicated in your HUD
  
• When you fire gunz, this puts stress (Targeting Computer Stress, acronym TCS) on the TargComp.
  
• When the TCL threshold gets overloaded, your shots lose convergence (fire parallel to the gun ports) and take an accuracy penalty (i.e. a cone of fire or something). Missiles will lose their lock and Artemis bonuses, too.
  
• The degree of the penalty you receive is proportional to how badly you overloaded the TCL. If you went over by a small amount, it won't be massive (but still noticeable). If you tried cheese like 2 PPC + 2 Gauss, you'd be lucky to hit them onto a single target.
  
• You can still aim individual weapons when you lost convergence, but obviously life will become a lot more difficult while your TargComp recovers
  
• This ultimately creates a choice between firing everything at once for a big burst that might not hit the same spot, or you can choose to fire off weapons in smaller groups for high precision but longer exposure time (also, harder to aim more shots than just one).
  
• Note that the convergence breaking and penalties happen a split-second before the weapons truly fire. You don't get a "free" alpha. You can't cheat the system.

Edited by FupDup, 28 May 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Roughneck45]

I don't believe pinpoint is the problem, they just need to balance the weapons under the current mechanics. Fix SRMs and lower the rate of fire of PPC's. Make brawling weapons win in a brawl, not have a 50/50 shot against snipers in a brawl as it is now.

Shooting specific components of a mech is the most appealing part of MWO combat, particularly at a distance. Watering this down would make it a worse experience IMO.

Also, tabletop=/=MWO. We do not need a system to randomize where our damage goes, or add any type of RNG to our aim. We already have 10 different locations to target. Instead, we need to teach people to torso twist and shield.

Edited by Roughneck45, 28 May 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Roughneck45, on 28 May 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

I don't believe pinpoint is the problem, they just need to balance the weapons under the current mechanics. Fix SRMs and lower the rate of fire of PPC's. Make brawling weapons win in a brawl, not have a 50/50 shot against snipers in a brawl as it is now.

Shooting specific components of a mech is the most appealing part of MWO combat, particularly at a distance. Watering this down would make it a worse experience IMO.

Also, tabletop=/=MWO. We do not need a system to randomize where our damage goes, or add any type of RNG to our aim. We already have 10 different locations to target. Instead, we need to teach people to torso twist and shield.

It is a problem, you can't ignore it. But the issue is the combination of both Frontloaded damage and Pinpoint damage. Either on their own are less of an issue, but together they make the optimal loadouts we see today.

We don't need randomized either. But we could have it. We already have 3 weapon systems with CoF, and we only see one of them used in competitive play, which is on the Embers.

Reducing their brawling potential is certainly the easiest way to get around it, but it doesn't remove their optimal damage application. Might be enough, might be too much.

Removing instantaneous convergence would be easy enough, have weapons fire parallel and you actually have to aim weapons, instead of our current skill-less system.

Removing FLD but keeping PP means we can spread damage with ease.

All options will enrage one group or another.

[Tombstoner]

Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Pinpoint is a touchy subject with me..

At its face, it sounds terrible considering the balance of TT..(Armor values) but at the same time, the random hit location of TT was applied to mechs that were effectively standing still. Mechs now move in realtime, and can actually dodge things (or torso twist to spread the damage.)

Try to imagine fighting a circling light mech without convergence.. he runs around and tears up the big target, while the poor larger mech is trying to just clip the little mech with his weapons..


I can't see a solution to making larger mechs more survivable, without making lighter mechs near invincible, regarding convergence.
---------------

I might've considered a possible accuracy nerf to firing more than 2-3 weapons at a time, but the problem with that, is you just end up with people mounting 2 heavy weapons or three heavy weapons (like what we have now)

Removing weapon convergence would be a MASSIVE buff to the circle-jerk light mechs, one which I don't think is necessary considering their already healthy speed advantages, even with convergence.

your forgetting that the distance the shot deviates is dependent on the range to target and the type of system used. short range shots should be unaffected and be spread over a very small area but that area increases proportionately with distance.so a shot at max range could be made to be 50/50 or 75/25 but the art work would also mater. the atlas at max range is much easer to hit then a commando. the same holds true at 50 feet. but at 50feet the amount of spread would matter little when fighting a light mech. besides a light mech is best countered buy a team work and situational awareness.

If some sort of deviation system is added it gives direct use for items like the targeting computer or more module choices.
25% reduction in shot spread. that can be upgraded to 75% and eventually 100% reduction for the most dedicated player.

but it would give PGI somethign to tweek besides heat/ damage. give the gauss perfect accuracy but the PPC has some spread. same for auto cannons. with more then one weapons type grouped then accuracy drops off. it hit POP tarting and meta builds right where they hurt most and make stock mechs more viable and team work more OP then it is.

I would also add that the game needs damage resistance cofactors depending on location to counter art work. lets face it the commando gets way more bang for its armor then the atla,s ton for ton based only on how hard it is to hit a huge vs. small target. this is not expressed in MWO since the armor rules all mechs are based on how TT works and the incomplete translation from TT to FPS.

Armor protection must scale with mech volume. It cant simply be something linear from TT.

Edited by Tombstoner, 28 May 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[Hellcat420]

pgi will never touch this, too many people want to play cod with robot skins, not enough want an actual battletech based game.

[Sybreed]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Get used to it. They are struggling with the netcode/HSR as it is, so until they can make that work (because pinpoint was done in order to make "the netcode easier to deal with stuff"), then... good luck with that.

blame PGI for not going client side authorization. If Planetside 2 can handle bullet drop with thousands of players on the same servers, then the PIG should be able to handle MWO with ease.

[Khobai]

Pinpoint damage would be fine if the weapons were adjusted. Autocannons should burst fire. PPCs should do arcing damage. And I would lower Gauss damage considerably but give Gauss a chance to armor pierce and hit internals directly.

[Black Arachne]

Pinpoint is the core of the problem - and will continue to be so until PGI takes a look into it. Until then, expect some more Ghost mechanics to come into place.

Ghost Ammo
Ghost Charge
and what other poorly thought out mechanics PGI can come up with.

Edited by Black Arachne, 28 May 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

I would argue that it's not about an issue of perfect accuracy so much as having control of your robot at all times. Basically, no "random" stuff like the current SSRM targeting system being applied to all weapon types.

The funny thing about this, though, is that there are many convergence solutions out there that maintain 100% player control at all times, without resorting to random elements. The reason some people resist convergence fixes is probably because of a false assumption that it would remove player control, which is actually entirely dependent on which solution you choose.

Actually, we have the tools in the current game to actually impact convergence without the complexity that Homeless Bill suggested ages ago. One of the was implemented with the 2nd JJ nerf: weapon spread. When you jump, it forces your reticles to shake - yes, we all know this. But, the last bit of the nerf patch was added in arm based weapon spread. In other words, mid-jump, it sets your convergence point back. It isn't massive but it is there.

As you eluded to, we also do not have random environmental elements that impact said control over our mechs. In other words, we are greatly lacking heat based penalties. Combine some heat penalties with heat/movement induced weapon spread to an extreme and you've got a workable alternative to convergence. It is not perfect and it would never be the end all answer, but it is something.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

And the community has given many ideas on how to remedy it, with varying degrees of implementation difficulty and effectiveness.

Anyone remember HB's targetting computer overload? It doesn't affect individual weapons much, but when you start to rapid fire or alpha, you lose some accuracy.

Some of the issues also arise from hit detection. Apparently PGI can't make progressive convergence work. In that case, we have to change the FLD weapons. Make them less of an issue, either by removing the FLD, or by making them a very poor choice when the non PP FLD weapons close.

The ball is in PGI's court...but past experience says it will stay the same.

PPFLD? Pinpoint Front loaded damage?

Black Arachne, on 28 May 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Pinpoint is the core of the problem - and will continue to be so until PGI takes a look into it. Until then, expect some more Ghost mechanics to come into place.

Ghost Ammo
Ghost Charge
and what other poorly thought out mechanics PGI can come up with.

Minimum ranges on everything lol.

Charge mechanic for all energy based weaponry.

But ghost ammo LOL.........dayum thats good.

[Wolfways]

I'm always wrong...

[Deathlike]

Sybreed, on 28 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

blame PGI for not going client side authorization. If Planetside 2 can handle bullet drop with thousands of players on the same servers, then the PIG should be able to handle MWO with ease.

Client side authorization allows for aimbots to work their magic. That's an actual problem.

[elitewolverine]

Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Pinpoint is a touchy subject with me..

At its face, it sounds terrible considering the balance of TT..(Armor values) but at the same time, the random hit location of TT was applied to mechs that were effectively standing still. Mechs now move in realtime, and can actually dodge things (or torso twist to spread the damage.)

Try to imagine fighting a circling light mech without convergence.. he runs around and tears up the big target, while the poor larger mech is trying to just clip the little mech with his weapons..


I can't see a solution to making larger mechs more survivable, without making lighter mechs near invincible, regarding convergence.
---------------

I might've considered a possible accuracy nerf to firing more than 2-3 weapons at a time, but the problem with that, is you just end up with people mounting 2 heavy weapons or three heavy weapons (like what we have now)

Removing weapon convergence would be a MASSIVE buff to the circle-jerk light mechs, one which I don't think is necessary considering their already healthy speed advantages, even with convergence.

It is not about missing the mech. It is about pinpoint accuracy. In the game you didnt miss, you hit randomly because in all reality, they had more simulation doing random hit locations than pinpoint accuracy. A walking mech, gyros or not, moving at speeds of a M1A tank for a 100tonner, should not be able to fire, twist, jump, all without some sort of 'convergance' for damage. Oh they will hit, but not where i exactly point the gun. No gun is ever that accurate. And considering the weapons on a mech are hightech low implementation for easy repair, the idea that pinpoint is 'real' is so false its like a 500lb person saying they dont have a eating problem.

Then you add in the armor buff. Why the armor buff? because people died to fast. Why did they die to fast? Because instead of 10second cycle times as per CBT, they made it 2-5secs, 5 being the maxium. Of course you will fry when you triple the damage potentional...

No light mech in their right mind should ever be able to run up to an ac20 and shrug it off, no fear, run around, shrug off another , shrug off another few medium lasers. Till FINALLY it takes 3-4 mechs aiming and shooting at CLOSE range to bring them down.

I watch this every match. I just watched a commando eat 3 Gauss to the torso and 4 medium pulse fires and 2 srm hits, survive to get the kill and move on...really?!

Netcode netcode netcode. I could tell you how to fix that...its literally like 4 lines long depending on what they are using. Simple. The net code in basic non code terms goes like this.

I shoot, my pc detects and reports a hit.
net code does rewind to make sure that is true
code then tells enemy player it was hit and where.

Stop there, it is the where part. You see it already knows it hit, now put in a code line, random 1-12 = damage location.

Then the where becomes solved. You dont need some complicated code i just dont get it.

[Bhael Fire]

Rhaythe, on 28 May 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

I'm willing to bet the poptarting/front-loaded damage meta would drop significantly if kills were no longer tracked nor displayed anywhere - including the match results screen.

While true to some degree, people (like me) would still go for maximum kills and damage to keep that cash flow coming in. In order to do that, you need the most effective build you can afford to run.

[Trauglodyte]

Again, we can tweak convergence without taking the skill out of the hands of the player. In fact, adding in heat/movement based weapon spread actually puts MORE skill into the hands of the user because it forces them to pay attention to the intricacies of both the environment and where they're mech stats are currently. Isn't that what PGI actually wants? People, oh I don't know, THINKING? If you want to shoot the wings off of a fly, stop moving, cool down, and aim. If you want to be a freaking cowboy then your damage isn't all going to go where it needs to be. Piloting a walking toaster oven at 99% heat should not allow you to head shot anyone regardless of the skills you have.