356 replies to this topic

[GLIZZY GULPER]

What if PPCs got the charge timer instead of Gauss?

Just a thought. Gauss nerfs pretty much desynced them from PPCs, so if we nerfed PPCs, would it desync them with ballistics?

[BlazingLasers]

I still think the MPL weight penalty is too high for what you get.
SPL/SL weight ratio is 2
MPL/ML weight ratio is 2
LPL/LL weight ratio is 1.4

One of these is not like the other.

[Rasc4l]

Paul, in general you're going to the right direction, congratz and thanks for that.

In order to achieve Complete Balance™, I'd suggest:

- Arty damage to 32 for the obvious reasons as was already suggested earlier in this thread
- SL and SPL ranges need to be a bit more, something like 120 m making max range 240 m. Just to make them viable, because in brawls with light mechs, they are so fast that once you go past the enemy, sometimes you're out of range when you turn back.

- Flamer shouldn't heat your mech more than the enemy. Make it possible to shutdown enemy mech but make the 90->100% heat step exponentially difficult to make it non-trivial to achieve.
- PPCs need a LBX like a cone like was suggested to spread the damage OR an increase in cooldown from 4 s to 5 or 6 (start with 5). (ER)PPC damage should also drop more after their optimal range. This would prevent continuous 10 min engagement e.g. in Alpine at around 1 km, which can go on and on, because it costs no ammo.
- Increase LL and LPL ghost heat limit to 3
- (U)AC5 range should be around 500 m to make gauss and AC/2 long range kings. AC/2 should also have 3x range like gauss (but do very little damage at that range). You can also try to increase the (U)AC/5 projectile drop over distance a little (5-10%) to make the hit location desync from PPC, which goes directly.
- Engine size should not be connected to torso/arm and mech mobility/agility. Even if the assault poptart has the reflexes to make a sudden mouse movement and drop that jumping shadowhawk at 500 m, his/her mech should not make this easy and there should be a clear slugginess in heavy/assault mechs when operating the machine.

And voila, new meta is all weapons and classes work! (except LRMs but that requires IW and is beyond the scope of this post)

[DeathlyEyes]

Dymlos2003, on 28 May 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Based on what?

I play the game and feel they would positively influence the game. I see why certain meta builds work better than others.

Eliminating Gauss Rifle charge would make the weapon more accessible. I am capable of syncing it reliably to my PPCs without any issues. A newer player doesn't. The thing that has impacted the Gauss rifle's effectiveness is the DPS reduction (because now it has to charge for nearly an extra second). Reducing its recycle rate to somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds would have the intended of effect of making it not useful in a brawl while still allowing it to be accessible. The charge mechanic actually makes it harder to use it as a sniper weapon when mechs are popping in and out of cover because the weapon has to charge. If a mech is poptarting against you, you might not ever get a chance to shoot it.

Reducing laser duration would help balance lasers with PPCs because mechs using lasers wouldn't be exposed. I use PPCs far more effectively because I can pop in and out of cover quicker. I even brawl with them more effectively because I am able to turn my mech away and shield myself from damage.

Reducing the hill climb penalties and buffing acceleration and stopping rates of all mechs would allow for mechs that cannot equip jump jets a chance to be used as snipers. Currently the reason why I use a poptart is because I cannot get to cover fast enough on a ground bound mech. By the time I am backed up my weapons are reloaded, I may as well have just stood out in the open.

[Almond Brown]

Shlkt, on 29 May 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

SRM missile spread reduction will probably have a greater impact than the modest damage boost. I assume those numbers are for standard guidance. Could you also post the numbers for Artemis launchers?

No change to Artemis.
ARTEMIS IV FCS 1 1.0 0.00 0.66 50% 1.50

Just do the new Maths...

[Tombstoner]

What needs to happen is a fundamental change in the damage adsorption mechanic and how it effects time to kill: currently way too short. To increase it you cant simply increase armor per tone across the board. because armor and speed interact this makes lights much stronger then intended.

what i see as a solution is to assign an armor co factor for each mech that is based on the relative size of the mech and by size i mean volume relative to the smallest mech in the game. That way the TT build rules for armor stay unchanged but the game compensates for mech size in a way that TT ignores. A FPS game needs to take into account target size and how it interacts with speed. since top speed is covered by tonnage allocation the game doesn't need to be adjusted but mech size does.

For example the commando has x volume and is assigned a cofactor of one. the atlas is 5x that volume of the commando then the atlas armor needs to be 5 times stronger to compensate for how much easier it is to hit. if during testing the armor boost is too much then scale it to 2.5x untill you have a fun level.

By doing this you will flat out increase time to kill as mech tonnage increases. all the while leaving light ttk the same.

If things stay as they are the panther mech is not viable, since it has the same speed of an atlas but is a light mech.

Edited by Tombstoner, 29 May 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[oldradagast]

Sounds good to me:

1) Reduction on AC ranges: Cuts back on a bit on the "Autocannons are always better than everything else" issue the game has and encourages more brawling vs. long-range poking

2) SRM changes: Anything to fix the poor, bug-riddled SRM system is appreciated, and this should help. I look forward to the main fix and SRM's again being a serious threat

3) Laser changes: A buff to small lasers is nice, though it probably won't affect much in the game, but buffs to pulse lasers (the neglected step-child of the laser family) is appreciated.

4) Strike tweaks: Probably needed, though I like strikes in general - they give lights a way to deal damage and use their movement for something other than baiting mechs - but I think the real anger over strikes is when they kill with head hits. It makes sense, sure, but there is a feel of "I died to random, dumb luck vs. skill" when it happens.

Overall, the changes encourage brawling and try to move the game away from "all that matters is your auto-cannons," so that's good, IMHO.

Edited by oldradagast, 29 May 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Gallowglas]

While the arty/airstrike changes are welcomed, I don't think they address a few core problems. Even with the reduced damage and increased spread, they're probably going to be a no-brainer item for a light mech because they can place strikes in locations that are virtually impossible for larger, slower mechs to detect and respond to. My suggestion here would be to allow Betty to give a warning that a strike is nearby. You still wouldn't know exactly where and you still might get caught, but it would prevent the (IMHO abusive) mechanic of a Spider being able to drop an arty strike right behind you on a momentary jump over a building, removing any chance you'll see the smoke.

Additionally, there is FAR too much and too frequent head damage that goes out in these strikes. I've been hit in the head more frequently by far in the use of arty/airstrikes than I have in regular combat. It's a little silly for such a non-precise weapon to deliver lethal head damage so often when the rest of your mech isn't even internal. The chance of head shots should be drastically reduced.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Tal Ravis, on 29 May 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

What if PPCs got the charge timer instead of Gauss?

Just a thought. Gauss nerfs pretty much desynced them from PPCs, so if we nerfed PPCs, would it desync them with ballistics?

Guass Generate little to no heat.

[oldradagast]

With regard to the Gauss, I wouldn't mind the charging mechanic if the following issues were fixed:

1) Gauss Charge hold time is too short: It really should be lengthened. That makes it easier to snipe, sure, but it doesn't help the weapon much in a brawl.

2) Better Gauss charge mechanic visibility: Right now, you're stuck looking at little green or red squares on the HUD - I have no idea what happens if you're red-green color blind - and trying to listen to faint sounds and watch cockpit lights dim. It's rather vague what is happening, and there's also no warning when you're about to lose the charge. The mechanic needs to be more obvious, along with maybe a fading light, blinking warning, or some such thing that warns you before losing the charge so you can at least take a shot and not sit there, looking stupid, when you release the button a split second after the charge fades. I also have no idea how a new player is supposed to pick up how to use this weapon... is it even explained anywhere in the game that the Gauss rifle charges and how that works? I haven't checked, but considering how long ghost heat went without being mentioned, I don't have my hopes up...

[Thoradin]

Ok, most of these fixes seem fine (in a general tweaking sort of way). Do feel this just shifts the meta in a slightly different direction each time. Which TBH is also fine as people have fun tweaking there builds.

Couple of things which are seriously wrong with missiles though:

1) Whats the current status on splash damage? I'm assuming its still absent? (God I hope so...)

2) Impulse / Screen shake : ideally this should wholly be based on damage taken over time (short duration like .5 sec) NOT based on a specific weapon type. Why on earth does the screen shake so much when 5 LRM missiles hit a mech? And this balancing also shows it, and SRM2 has the same impulse as an SRM6 !! WHY? (what makes 4 dmg the same as 12?)

I'd expect to get a big shove being hit by an AC20 round, why as much or more from an LRM missile (doing approx 1 dmg). Thats probably an exaggeration (its difficult to test...).

It just sets the game up for abuse through the use of chain firing these special impulse weapons, this denies the opposition from playing as the cockpit shakes about. The mechanic should be a general one for all weapons, big alpha? Big screen shake.

Edited by Thoradin, 29 May 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Agreed. Though if possible I'd prefer their cone of fire to be removed. In genuine seriousness, the big near-instant kill weapon of choice (a pair of AC/20s) which isn't even supposed to be single shot front-loaded damage are not getting a cone.... nor is anything else. But the overall 2nd weakest weapon in the game has had a cone since closed beta? Worse, only said 2nd weakest weapon got a cone?

I'd rather everything got a cone, none of the weapons were supposed to be pin point, due to tech degrading, over centuries of war, then pilots could reduce the cone by skill grinding.

Still these nerfs are generally good, and the buffs for srms and changes, to that weapons system, better for the game.

I am trying to work out why some people on this thread, think that range reduction is bad for brawlers, still takes all sorts.

[SirSlaughter]

- Engine size should not be connected to torso/arm and mech mobility/agility.


THIS

[ShinVector]

oldradagast, on 29 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

With regard to the Gauss, I wouldn't mind the charging mechanic if the following issues were fixed:

1) Gauss Charge hold time is too short: It really should be lengthened. That makes it easier to snipe, sure, but it doesn't help the weapon much in a brawl.

2) Better Gauss charge mechanic visibility: Right now, you're stuck looking at little green or red squares on the HUD - I have no idea what happens if you're red-green color blind - and trying to listen to faint sounds and watch cockpit lights dim. It's rather vague what is happening, and there's also no warning when you're about to lose the charge. The mechanic needs to be more obvious, along with maybe a fading light, blinking warning, or some such thing that warns you before losing the charge so you can at least take a shot and not sit there, looking stupid, when you release the button a split second after the charge fades. I also have no idea how a new player is supposed to pick up how to use this weapon... is it even explained anywhere in the game that the Gauss rifle charges and how that works? I haven't checked, but considering how long ghost heat went without being mentioned, I don't have my hopes up...

Actually if you intend to be a 'good' gauss user.. You will memories the charge timing with help from the charge sound effects. That's the only why to make legit snap shots.

[C E Dwyer]

Thoradin, on 29 May 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Ok, most of these fixes seem fine (in a general tweaking sort of way). Do feel this just shifts the meta in a slightly different direction each time. Which TBH is also fine as people have fun tweaking there builds.

Couple of things which are seriously wrong with missiles though:

1) Whats the current status on splash damage? I'm assuming its still absent? (God I hope so...)

2) Impulse / Screen shake : ideally this should wholly be based on damage taken over time (short duration like .5 sec) NOT based on a specific weapon type. Why on earth does the screen shake so much when 5 LRM missiles hit a mech? And this balancing also shows it, and SRM2 has the same impulse as an SRM6 !! WHY? (what makes 4 dmg the same as 12?)

I'd expect to get a big shove being hit by an AC20 round, why as much or more from an LRM missile (doing approx 1 dmg). Thats probably an exaggeration (its difficult to test...).

It just sets the game up for abuse through the use of chain firing these special impulse weapons, this denies the opposition from playing as the cockpit shakes about. The mechanic should be a general one for all weapons, big alpha? Big screen shake.

Yup the screen shake changes seemed odd, 2 srm missiles hitting you are not going to shake you up as much as 6 will.
neither would 5 lrms shake you up as much as 20 hitting you full in the face.

An ac10 will shake your up more than the spread of a XB10

if weapon type and not damage or numbers shake you up then, based purely on shake, small launcher spamming you is far more effective

Edited by Cathy, 29 May 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[oldradagast]

ShinVector, on 29 May 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

Actually if you intend to be a 'good' gauss user.. You will memories the charge timing with help from the charge sound effects. That's the only why to make legit snap shots.

I suppose, but one shouldn't have to fight against a non-intuitive or otherwise clunky system to get "good" with a weapon. The skill should come from aiming, getting the shot off in time, and positioning oneself in locations where one won't have to brawl with a Gauss rifle... not from reading red or green blocks, listening for faint sounds, or other such stuff. Make the weapon's behavior obvious and let players build their skills from there, IMHO.

Edited by oldradagast, 29 May 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[ShinVector]

oldradagast, on 29 May 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

I suppose, but one shouldn't have to fight against a non-intuitive or otherwise clunky system to get "good" with a weapon. The skill should come from aiming, getting the shot off in time, and positioning oneself in locations where one won't have to brawl with a Gauss rifle... not from reading red or green blocks, listening for faint sounds, or other such stuff. Make the weapon's behavior obvious and let players build their skills from there, IMHO.

It is called adapting... Some might call that a skill..
Meanwhile the current Gauss is an awesome weapons to those know how to use it right.

[Onlystolen]

Kiiyor, on 28 May 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Interesting. Might have to blow the dust off my SRM machines.

Might take a while. There's a lot of dust.

And you'll put it back immediately, because Hit reg on the srms is still broken.

[Gas Guzzler]

SmokinDave73, on 29 May 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

If this is truly the case how can you justify nerfing the AC/10 and AC/20 max ranges when all this will do is make the A/C 5 PPC meta even stronger against brawlers that want to take AC 20s combined with medium lasers for example. I completely agree that the AC 5 and UAC 5 needed a nerf because it was to effective combined with PPC's in the current meta. 2 AC 5 2 PPC meta builds are going to be even more powerful against load outs that use AC 10s and AC 20s is that really what you want??
If so this game is going to be even worse than it currently is. This is just another case of you indirectly making the ac5 PPC poptart meta even stronger than it already is.

This is just plain stupid please do not change maxium ranges of the AC/10 and AC/20...

Um yeah because an AC 20 should reach out to 810m. No, this was the right thing to do, as been stated before an AC 20 would do more damage then an AC 10 at the AC 10's optimum range. If you are in a brawling loadout, you need to be smart and get in close before drawing attention to yourself. Your asking for an AC10 to be more effective than an AC5 at range. That makes no sense! Sorry.

[Koniving]

Cathy, on 29 May 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'd rather everything got a cone, none of the weapons were supposed to be pin point, due to tech degrading, over centuries of war, then pilots could reduce the cone by skill grinding.

Still these nerfs are generally good, and the buffs for srms and changes, to that weapons system, better for the game.

I am trying to work out why some people on this thread, think that range reduction is bad for brawlers, still takes all sorts.

I'm well aware, but nothing will get a cone. It'd make competitive players cry. Delayed convergence was great but it was server side. Client side somehow is open to hacking but that's probably because of how simple PGI made that (since there's so much security in a server side system, why protect the client side). But if we had it client side, we'd have delayed convergence without 'lag' throwing it off.

There's other ways too without doing a cone of fire. Play in 3rd person. Especially in a Stalker, Raven, Shadowhawk, Kintaro, Hunchback, Firestarter, etc.

Notice how the crosshair moves?
Move at different speeds.
Notice if the mech jiggles, the crosshair jiggles.
If the mech hobbles, the crosshair hobbles.
If the mech limps, oh god is the crosshair useless!

Wouldn't it only be fair if that was also true for first person?
We'd have no need for cone of fire or random chance or even delayed convergence.

But even better!
Every mech will have a unique (well as unique as the animation is) crosshair movement. Diversity!
Every mech will automatically have improved or worsened accuracy at different speeds.
Climbing a hill? Welp that affects accuracy.
Falling from jumpjets? Oh god you should see what happens! O_O!
Got shot? WHAM! Crosshair jerks so far to the side that you can miss by almost 75 degrees that if you fired then!

So why the heck isn't it in first person? It's not that different from a headbob.