118 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Just leave pulses out of this. They are kinda the whole point behind pinpoint and definitely hot enough to warrant it.

[OneEyed Jack]

Technoviking, on 31 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Here is my problem with any of this.

Right now, as a pilot you are trying to pin point fire your shots to a wounded torso/arm leg etc. This takes effort, precision, and concentration, especially if you are moving. (blah blah not as much as flying the space shuttle, but more than moving your guy in Diablo)

If pin point doesn't matter... what are you doing instead? What video game action are you doing when where your shots can't pinpoint?

Its a major, major game mechanic, one that activates and engages your brain. What are you going to be doing instead? People just want it to go away without replacing a skill/intensity/meaning thing to do.

I disagree, heartily.

Pointing and clicking is not the great be all and end all of skills that you think it is. Tactics are a skill. Adjusting tactics on the fly to compensate for everything not going exactly as planned is a greater skill. Gauging when to take a chance, and how big a chance to take, is definitely a skill. All of them engage your brain a lot more than "he's hurt right there, point, click."

[FupDup]

SirLANsalot, on 31 May 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Pulling the later half of a post I just put up talking about this else where lol.

TL;DR Game cannot handle adding in RnG/CoF whatever.

Fortunately, there are a number of convergence solutions out there that do not use randomized mechanics in any form.

[Mcgral18]

SirLANsalot, on 31 May 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Pulling the later half of a post I just put up talking about this else where lol.




TL;DR Game cannot handle adding in RnG/CoF whatever.

I mean, it's not like there are already multiple weapon systems with Cones of Fire, or completely random targetting.

What kind of ridiculous concept is that?

[wanderer]

Can't fix things on the convergence side of things- that's the devs, mind you.

The solution has always been rendering weapons incapable of full-on FLD. AC's should fire bursts (and if you're a real fun guy, you can even give ballistic hardpoints sizes so putting an AC/20 where an MG used to be = looooooong bursts, just like slapping an LRM 20 into a 2-tube missile hardpoint). PPCs should arc when they hit a target or even be a few tics of damage vs. a single full one. And FFS, just make sure when you're airborne, active jets or not, the 'Mech is shaking.

Problems fixed.

[GreyGriffin]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I mean, it's not like there are already multiple weapon systems with Cones of Fire, or completely random targetting.

What kind of ridiculous concept is that?

I think he's mistaking "Game" for "I." It's a common mistake.

Cone of fire is the easiest and best answer. It will bring another dimension to heat and movement management, reduce the impact of jump sniping, bring whole swathes of 'mechs up on the viability scale, and allow better design in general to happen. Sure, have one PPC right down the middle, preferably the weapon you have selected. Sure, have all the other weapons scatter a specific direction based on their relative location on the 'mech to bring down the randomness somewhat. But convergence is a bust and pinpoint alpha strikes are killing the game. Something needs to be done.

Right now, "Marksmanship" is being substituted for "Skill," as in all the skills we wanted to express when we picked up a Battletech game. Heat management, strategic and tactical maneuver, information warfare and command and coordination all fall to the wayside. While reducing the impact of marksmanship is commonly seen as a skill nerf, raising TTK by reducing the impact of marksmanship actually significantly raises the skill cap of the game.

[Felbombling]

If they cannot remove pin-point accuracy, they should completely remove the concept of an alpha strike button. Factor in a firing delay on any weapon in a weapon group, like chain fire works now. If people can macro around it, they will... or grow extra fingers. Also, I'd extend the flight envelope for jump jets and make weapon fire impossible while a Mech is airborne. Let the tactical maneuver be the draw for jump jets... not the peek-a-boo-I-shoot-you of jump sniping. Short of that, while airborne your weapon fire could go anywhere, not just where the reticle is pointing. To avoid the motion sickness people complained about with the first version of reticule shake that PGI attempted, just have it jiggle around a bit, to simulate the vibration of the jump jet thrusters.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

I vote for homelessbill targeting computers

[Blissful Negligence]

Eddrick, on 31 May 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

My personal favorite is what Chromehounds did. Weapons stop convergin at the edges of the Targeting Retical.

@ cSand: Pinpoint isn't that big of a deal to me either. I'm just throwing out the many solutions to PInpoint that people have came up with, like the OP asked.

Wow did you just bring up Chromehounds? I lost months of my life to that game... that was the only Mech fix I could get for a long time. Personally I feel the PPC should have the charge up mechanics not the Gauss Rifle.

[AdultPuppetShow]

Didn't they say they couldn't do varied convergence of multiple systems because the engine couldn't handle it?

[Mcgral18]

AdultPuppetShow, on 31 May 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Didn't they say they couldn't do varied convergence of multiple systems because the engine couldn't handle it?

They can't do progressive, but they can do static.

[Koniving]

A relatively simple solution that's already part-way in the game.
Look at third person. I'm sure we've all noticed its crosshair is a little wonky.
The instant jumps are from instant convergence.

Focus on something close by. Observe the reticule as you do things.
Do various things. Walk at different speeds.
Now imagine that in first person.

To quote somewhere else...

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I'm well aware, but nothing will get a cone. It'd make competitive players cry. Delayed convergence was great but it was server side. Client side somehow is open to hacking but that's probably because of how simple PGI made that (since there's so much security in a server side system, why protect the client side). But if we had it client side, we'd have delayed convergence without 'lag' throwing it off.

There's other ways too without doing a cone of fire. Play in 3rd person. Especially in a Stalker, Raven, Shadowhawk, Kintaro, Hunchback, Firestarter, etc.

Notice how the crosshair moves?
Move at different speeds.
Notice if the mech jiggles, the crosshair jiggles.
If the mech hobbles, the crosshair hobbles.
If the mech limps, oh god is the crosshair useless!

Wouldn't it only be fair if that was also true for first person?
We'd have no need for cone of fire or random chance or even delayed convergence.

But even better!
Every mech will have a unique (well as unique as the animation is) crosshair movement. Diversity!
Every mech will automatically have improved or worsened accuracy at different speeds.
Climbing a hill? Welp that affects accuracy.
Falling from jumpjets? Oh god you should see what happens! O_O!
Got shot? WHAM! Crosshair jerks so far to the side that you can miss by almost 75 degrees that if you fired then!

So why the heck isn't it in first person? It's not that different from a headbob.

These are animated gifs.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I'm uploading videos as well which focus entirely on this.

Jagermech. (Watch the crosshair during the third person perspective. Study how it moves, now imagine that in first person).

Edited by Koniving, 31 May 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Make the mechs tougher. Problem solved.

There is no pin-point damage, it's an illusion. My mech gets destroyed just as fast by any weapon of equal damage whether it's a stream of damage or a slug. You imagine the stream will miss more, but it's just as likely to hit more. You see how that works? Accuracy is a constant, stream or slug, it doesn't change anything, but you will diminish gameplay quality by removing weapon variety. I really hope you all can see the truth in this.

What you could do if you really just want a nerf to damage is give Ballistics a weakness. Let's say they are great on armor damage, but weak on damaging the mech's internal structure. This would nerf damage alot without changing gameplay and Ballistics have no weakness right now. They are not hot and not limited since there are mechs that can carry a full payload of them and fire them non-stop. Energy weapons overheat, Missiles do weak armor damage. Ballistics could do weak internal damage.

[GreyGriffin]

Lightfoot, on 31 May 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

There is no pin-point damage, it's an illusion. My mech gets destroyed just as fast by any weapon of equal damage whether it's a stream of damage or a slug.

False.

Take a 'mech with 2 PPCs and an AC-5 (or a pair if you have the tons). Put all those weapons in a group, then chain fire them from a distance. Try and assess how badly you hurt the enemy 'mech, and how long it takes to kill them.

Then, put all those weapons on group fire. Keep shooting from a distance, and watch as their torsos slough off under your concentrated pinpoint fire.

This is the point of contention. The ability to concentrate a 'mech's entire firepower onto a single enemy component cripples or destroys that enemy far faster than if the damage was not concentrated on a single point. Pinpoint damage affects everything.

• Why do people hate LRMs? Because you can't get in range, because their snipermech buddies will pop your torso the moment you get out of cover.
  
• Why are 3 large lasers Ghost Heat Mania? Because with pinpoint damage, huge stacks of high impulse weapons melt components too fast.
  
• Why is jump sniping the dominant form of combat above mid-ELO? Because it minimizes exposure to withering enemy pinpoint fire while having very little opportunity cost to return a snap shot of massive damage.
  
• Why is Alpine a frozen white sea of misery?
  
• Why do we always end up fighting over the same three sniper-friendly ridges on every map?
  
• Why do gauss rifles have a super annoying charge-up mechanic?
  
• Why don't noobs ever just go when they take a hit, letting us through the pass instead of bunching us up like third graders waiting for the 80 year old chaperone to get off the bus?
  
• Why don't we see more Awesomes?

The list goes on and on, and all these problems and pressures would be relieved if there was a mechanic that kept our 'mechs from being surgically dissected past 300m.

[Alexandrix]

just institute more reticle wobble for mech actions.Have you seen how much some of these mechs move and sway around when they are walking/running,jumping,or getting hit.Watch your mechs run animation in 3rd person sometime.I swear it's a miracle the pilot's spine isn't turned into powder honestly.

This perfectly stable reticle is to reliable.Even according to lore the,mech targeting computers had a hard time compensating and hitting a target,sometimes even while standing still,much less at a dead run or god forbid jumping through the air.

Make the reticle sway just enough to make accurate long range shots while running difficult,but not impossible.While jumping it would be a crap shoot.If a sniper wants to ensure a dead on shot,he has to come out of cover,exposing himself,long enough for his reticle to settle,take the shot,and return to cover.Brawling wouldn't be affected to bad as you're probably close enough the sway won't matter THAT much,as long as you are a good shot and wait for the reticle to line up on target.

Edited by Alexandrix, 31 May 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[Aresye]

Technoviking, on 31 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Here is my problem with any of this.

Right now, as a pilot you are trying to pin point fire your shots to a wounded torso/arm leg etc. This takes effort, precision, and concentration, especially if you are moving. (blah blah not as much as flying the space shuttle, but more than moving your guy in Diablo)

If pin point doesn't matter... what are you doing instead? What video game action are you doing when where your shots can't pinpoint?

Its a major, major game mechanic, one that activates and engages your brain. What are you going to be doing instead? People just want it to go away without replacing a skill/intensity/meaning thing to do.

Pssst! *whispers*
Pretty sure it's because most players can't aim. They just want to be able to hook up an Xbox controller and hold down the trigger.

[wanderer]

Lightfoot, on 31 May 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

Make the mechs tougher. Problem solved.

There is no pin-point damage, it's an illusion. My mech gets destroyed just as fast by any weapon of equal damage whether it's a stream of damage or a slug. You imagine the stream will miss more, but it's just as likely to hit more. You see how that works? Accuracy is a constant, stream or slug, it doesn't change anything, but you will diminish gameplay quality by removing weapon variety. I really hope you all can see the truth in this.

Do you even do simple math here?

It takes X damage to a location to destroy it. If damage isn't done to the critical location- it doesn't get destroyed. The less damage spread, the faster a weapon kills it's target.

[Turist0AT]

Hmm, i kinda want my weapons to hit ware i aim them, want this game to be based on skill and not random chance. I also say no, to any ANY shake, cone of fire etc, this is not Battlefield where guns have recoil. And no heat penalties.

And " The time for blaming is over and we must now find a solution to the issue" No, we must nothing. We are not getting paid to do it. PGI dont listed to the community and when they do they give us fabulos mechanics such as ghost heat.

Solution(according to my opinion):
Make every weapon system equally OP to fix the problem. Boating anything will wreck everything, want a ballanced build to mitigate, heat, ammo or range, go ahead. Right now everyone is carying the same build. Couple of this couple of that.

I want this game to be a simulator. In simulators you can only take one maybe a couple of hits before your dead meat. We can allready take a huge barage. how much more do you want machs to be able to take. Weapons need to be effective murdering tools. Not nerf guns.

And no, im not a poptarting-meta-whoяe, just a filthy casual.

Edited by Turist0AT, 01 June 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Eddrick, on 31 May 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Cone of fire
Cone of hit
Homelessbill's Targeting Computer solution
Remove Group Fire

Bring in heat penalties for firing those big ass weapons.......
If we had our RoF slowed down due to heat issues we would solve pin point a fair bit as well...you group fire those 4 LRM 15s....boy is ur ass gunna get hot in that Lolphapult of yours.

Aresye, on 31 May 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Pssst! *whispers*
Pretty sure it's because most players can't aim. They just want to be able to hook up an Xbox controller and hold down the trigger.

LOL, I saw this the other day, some little kid or clueless adult was taking their Firestarter or something, and just holding down the fire button on like 6 machineguns....on target or not.....just firing.

Some other person was in a Jenner just firing their lazors into the ground.......never even on target once...

[Black Ivan]

PGI does not care about the problem, part because I think they play the game on their own closed server.

Pinpoint damage and LRM swarming make the game horrible. You only sea 4 AC boats or massed LRM boats. Everything between this is just cannon fodder.

Edited by Black Ivan, 01 June 2014 - 12:43 AM.