118 replies to this topic

[Turist0AT]

stjobe, on 01 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Thank you for educating me.

[Zervziel]

I can understand people's stances on PPD, but I really loathe the idea of RGN ideas like cone of fire. it screws over everyone equally, the meta-tards and the people playing the game straight.

Second, I fear how well PGI would handle putting in CoF. They tend to to be all the way or not at all. Sure they can always patch it to acceptable levels, but that time until they do is going to suuuuuuuck!

Knowing their track record, I'd probably fire at a mech only to watch my AC round veer 45 degrees from the barrel. And then we'd probably get a post about how it's working as intended and thanks to their genius, the Awesome is a viable brawler once again.

[Gallowglas]

Generic, always-active cones of fire would be horrible. Not just "gosh that's bad" horrible, but full-on "look, I'm playing a FPS with oven mitts!" horrible. One way to absolutely ensure a huge segment of your player base never plays again is to take away opportunities for skilled shots in favor of randomness.

That said, I'd be in favor of a mechanic wherein a cone of fire or reticle shake existed while on the move, being hit, jumping, etc. Heck, I'd be fine with having a cone of fire that gradually reduces the longer your reticle is on a single target. You'd have to be really careful with any of these solutions though or they could make light mechs completely obsolete.

All that said, unless you impose some really obtuse randomness, you're still going to have pinpoint damage, even if it's more rare.

Edited by Gallowglas, 01 June 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[stjobe]

Zervziel, on 01 June 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I can understand people's stances on PPD, but I really loathe the idea of RGN ideas like cone of fire. it screws over everyone equally, the meta-tards and the people playing the game straight.

The ONLY weapons in the game without a random element to them are the ACs, the PPCs, and the GR.

• Every missile system - LRM, SRM, SSRM, as well as the LBX - lands a random number of missiles/projectiles. It's not decided by a RNG, but it may as well be for all the control you have over it.
  
• The MG and Flamer has honest-to-goodness RNG Cone of Fire, in addition to all their other flaws.
  
• Lasers hit locations are heavily affected by both firer and target movement during the beam duration, so the damage from them is also applied in what may well be viewed as a random manner.

So tell me again how a bit of randomness screws over everyone?

Besides, nobody is asking for totally random hit locations decided by a dice roll; that's for the TT game. People are asking for non-random effects that lessen the perfect aim we currently have - and some of us are also asking for ACs and PPCs to be brought into the fold with the other weapons, to make them too spread their damage a bit so that we may finally start on true weapon balance.

Most people are not asking for this out of spite, they're asking for it because it would make for a better game - a more interesting, deeper, more complex, more skill-based game. Yes, adding a layer of non-random imperfections actually increases the skill needed to be good, quite opposite to what the "herp derp random is the devil, true skill needs pixel-perfect aim" crowd believes.

[DeathlyEyes]

Cathy, on 01 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Well that's the whole point, the mech content would have to be reconfigured, it would change play styles and make thing work on the whole for the better.

It cures boating of weapons which people complain about, it makes mech more multi weapon platforms which is what mech warrior/battle tech is supposed to be and removes it from the other stompy robot games.

it makes jump sniping far less effective, which most people that use don't like

as for paid content

I own every not just every hero mech but every mech currently available in game, with a bay for each and I'm more than willing to have the mechs load out changed if it will improve play and make it more dimentional.

I remember the bitching about the T-59 being nerfed in World of tanks, (paid content), those nerfs made the game a much better one

Getting rid of boating won't make for a better game. There are other mechs that are designed to boat "meta weapons." What do you suggest doing to that? It's just a bad idea. The problem is that people will customize and max min. The best solution is to make hard counters to everything in order to scare people from running all sniper weapons. Mechwarrior 4 did this wonderfully. It didn't show up very often in public matches but brawling with sniper weapons was a really bad thing to have happen. Sniper weapons like PPC+Gauss did far less DPS because they had 6 second recycle times. Weapons like SRMs would recycle really fast and could kill mechs incredibly quick. Not only that but blasting someone with all that high alpha would usually knock them over. By the time they get back up they usually were dead.

If people are wanting "table top warrior" I would suggest a stock game mode. Even that will be "meta gamed" since certain stock mechs are way superior.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 01 June 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The best solution is to make hard counters to everything in order to scare people from running all sniper weapons.

Yeah no. Hard counters are far from the best solution. Nobody thinks rock paper scissors is a fun game. Because hard counters arnt fun. Hard counters make no allowance for skill to overcome adversity

LRMs, ECM, and TAG/NARC/BAP/PPCS/UAVs are prime examples of why hard counters DONT work and should never be used in games like this.

[Zervziel]

stjobe, on 01 June 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

The ONLY weapons in the game without a random element to them are the ACs, the PPCs, and the GR.

• Every missile system - LRM, SRM, SSRM, as well as the LBX - lands a random number of missiles/projectiles. It's not decided by a RNG, but it may as well be for all the control you have over it.
  
• The MG and Flamer has honest-to-goodness RNG Cone of Fire, in addition to all their other flaws.
  
• Lasers hit locations are heavily affected by both firer and target movement during the beam duration, so the damage from them is also applied in what may well be viewed as a random manner.

So tell me again how a bit of randomness screws over everyone?

I'll admit that wasn't the best worded part of my argument. However RNG is one of those things that needs to be very controlled in how it's used. If something is going to miss it needs to be at least somewhat consistent. Also you need to stop and remember who's making this game.

Quote

Besides, nobody is asking for totally random hit locations decided by a dice roll; that's for the TT game. People are asking for non-random effects that lessen the perfect aim we currently have - and some of us are also asking for ACs and PPCs to be brought into the fold with the other weapons, to make them too spread their damage a bit so that we may finally start on true weapon balance.

So you're asking for non-random effects to achieve random shot location with aiming. Not exactly sure how you do that but whatever. Also there are plenty of fixes that can bring ppces and ACs into the fold without messing with the aiming. For one, making ACes into rapid fire burst weapons. Can't remember what some of the PPC fixes of the top of my head, but I'm sure you can find them.

Quote

Most people are not asking for this out of spite, they're asking for it because it would make for a better game - a more interesting, deeper, more complex, more skill-based game. Yes, adding a layer of non-random imperfections actually increases the skill needed to be good, quite opposite to what the "herp derp random is the devil, true skill needs pixel-perfect aim" crowd believes.

Well yes and no. Yes, that some randomness does lead to higher skill level, but you are most definitely wrong about this not being out of spite. Sure a good many people here have good points and before you say anything, I do agree that aiming doesn't need to be as hyper accurate as it is.

However a lot of the times on these forums, the people pushing for a change like this are often the ones that feel they've been victimized by gameplay. So to PGI, a lot of this just seems like the usual "He scratched my mech, nerf him!" cry for dev help which quite frankly this does sound like.

[stjobe]

Zervziel, on 01 June 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

If something is going to miss it needs to be at least somewhat consistent.

Nobody's claiming otherwise.

Zervziel, on 01 June 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

So you're asking for non-random effects to achieve random shot location with aiming. Not exactly sure how you do that but whatever. Also there are plenty of fixes that can bring ppces and ACs into the fold without messing with the aiming. For one, making ACes into rapid fire burst weapons. Can't remember what some of the PPC fixes of the top of my head, but I'm sure you can find them.

*sigh*

If you want examples, numbers, maths, theory, lore, and more about burst-fire ACs and beam-duration PPCs, feel free to have a look through my post history for the last year or so. I've been arguing for those for ages now (as well as non-random limitations on perfect aim and perfect convergence, a better heat system with heat penalties, and more).

I'm not someone who got killed by the bad OP weapon and wants daddy to tell them to stop. I've played this game almost every day for the last two years and I want it to become a great game - something it currently isn't, and the combination of perfect aim, instant convergence, and front-loaded damage is a major culprit in why it isn't.

[Agent of Change]

on Going discussion going here

http://mwomercs.com/...alance-edition/

[Theycallmetheworkingman]

Captain Stiffy, on 31 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

evenly distributing damage is the way to go.

Target info gathering is OP.

What a joke.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 01 June 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yeah no. Hard counters are far from the best solution. Nobody thinks rock paper scissors is a fun game. Because hard counters arnt fun. Hard counters make no allowance for skill to overcome adversity

LRMs, ECM, and TAG/NARC/BAP/PPCS/UAVs are prime examples of why hard counters DONT work and should never be used in games like this.

Hard counter is the wrong word. I'm sorry. You picked that out and made it into something else. Lrms ecm and tag all need to be reworked drastically. What I was getting at is brawler weapons need to be dangerous to sniper weapons increasing sniper weapon recycle times. Brawler weapons need to do more damage as well. Weapon spread needs to be removed and convergence needs to be set to whatever distance the targeted mech is at. This way mechs with close weapon slots aren't significantly better than mechs without those placements. Doing this this should also reduce ranged alphas or make other sacrifices because people will have a reason to carry some close ranges weapons.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kassatsu, on 31 May 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Unfortunately this is now call of duty in giant robots without the reticle bloom and any changes to how things work will probably drive more players away than it keeps/attracts (I doubt this game will attract more than a tiny handful of new players at this point anyways), it literally can't afford to drive any more players away, though that is inevitable regardless.

I wouldn't mind seeing dynamic convergence come back, you know, like before HSR where it was possible to miss because your weapons were realigning themselves to your 200 meter target immediately after firing at an enemy 800 meters out. That elite proficiency wouldn't be completely worthless either.

How in anyway is this game like CoD? TTK in CoD is literally 1-2 seconds or less. I can be surrounded by 10 mechs and last longer then that.

This game is NOTHING like CoD.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I still don't understand thus argument...there really isn't a way to make MWOs targeting any simpler.

It doesn't take any "skill" to target a location. If there were separate targeting reticules it would at least rake some skill to pull off the same performance.

It seems to me it's only the bads who don't want to lose their crutch.

Okay this is clearly biased. Of course it takes skill to target one location, while the target is moving and you are moving, and then one shot won't kill them so then you have to hit the same location AGAIN, and after the first hit, the target will likely be protecting that component if it is open. Saying aiming doesn't take skill in a shooter is just ridiculous. Its also not just aiming itself but how fast you can aim. Coming out and saying that bad players don't want to lose their crutch is also an interesting viewpoint, because the people that CONSTANTLY complain about FLD are typically not good players. If they were good players, they wouldn't be complaining.

Plenty of high-elo meta users are very good players, with or without meta builds. They simply like to run meta builds because they know that other high-elo players will also likely be bringing meta builds, and they want to win (yes, everyone knows that the meta is the most effective way to play, remember there will always be a meta, if it wasn't poptarting with PPCs and AC5s it would be something else). Even at high skill levels, you don't want to put yourself at a disadvantage against another skilled player.

My main point is just because a player uses meta builds doesn't mean that they need a crutch, it just means that they want to be competitive with other top-tier players that ARE using meta. You know, like the guys who frequent the top 10 in faction tourneys without spamming LRMs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 June 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

SilentWolff, on 01 June 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Pinpoint damage is going nowhere. People that cry about it, never played MW3 or MW4, both of which had pinpoint damage and were great games. The people that complain about it are mostly bad players who want some kind of crutch to play against players with more skill than them. Quit yer crying and l2p or find another game to play.

Actually they were okay games at best. Mechwarrior 2/Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries were far better online. Had they had better netcode and more accurate PPCs, there would have been no reason to play anything else.

[BLOOD WOLF]

MECHWARRIOR 2!!!!! I still play, love that game.

[Eddrick]

I'm going to go out on a limb saying, some/many of the suggestions are flawed. Mostly, the ones that reduce the skill cap. My pet peeve with some of the suggestions are the ones that reduce the usefullness of Arm Shielding and Torso Twisting. Why bother trying to Torso Twist to defend a damage part? If it is going to get damaged anyway.

Edited by Eddrick, 01 June 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 June 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

Okay this is clearly biased. Of course it takes skill to target one location, while the target is moving and you are moving, and then one shot won't kill them so then you have to hit the same location AGAIN, and after the first hit, the target will likely be protecting that component if it is open. Saying aiming doesn't take skill in a shooter is just ridiculous. Its also not just aiming itself but how fast you can aim. Coming out and saying that bad players don't want to lose their crutch is also an interesting viewpoint, because the people that CONSTANTLY complain about FLD are typically not good players. If they were good players, they wouldn't be complaining.

Plenty of high-elo meta users are very good players, with or without meta builds. They simply like to run meta builds because they know that other high-elo players will also likely be bringing meta builds, and they want to win (yes, everyone knows that the meta is the most effective way to play, remember there will always be a meta, if it wasn't poptarting with PPCs and AC5s it would be something else). Even at high skill levels, you don't want to put yourself at a disadvantage against another skilled player.

My main point is just because a player uses meta builds doesn't mean that they need a crutch, it just means that they want to be competitive with other top-tier players that ARE using meta. You know, like the guys who frequent the top 10 in faction tourneys without spamming LRMs.

So, does increasing the skill required to keep up the same performance make the game better or worse?

I'll say it again, MWO's aiming system is very hard to simplify further. Is it abused? No, just very easy to use. And certain weapons make good use of that magical instantaneous convergence.

[Aresye]

Gallowglas, on 01 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

That said, I'd be in favor of a mechanic wherein a cone of fire or reticle shake existed while on the move, being hit, jumping, etc. Heck, I'd be fine with going back to having a cone of fire that gradually reduces the longer your reticle is on a single target. You'd have to be really careful with any of these solutions though or they could make light mechs completely obsolete.

It wouldn't just be a problem for lights though.

MechWarrior isn't just about being a good shot. Piloting itself is a large skill that encompasses everything from knowing your surroundings, to being able to weave through enemy mechs and cover, to shooting accurately while running full speed and taking fire.

A speed based CoF just encourages people to not bother learning how to pilot, would promote hill humping tactics like in MW4, and ultimately screw over the people who've been playing longer and learned how to pilot well.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

So, does increasing the skill required to keep up the same performance make the game better or worse?

I'll say it again, MWO's aiming system is very hard to simplify further. Is it abused? No, just very easy to use. And certain weapons make good use of that magical instantaneous convergence.

Can you explain a little more? MWOs aiming system seems pretty standard to me. In most shooters, the shot goes where you are aiming. Shooters also implement a cone of fire, but this is typically seen in rapid fire weapons (most weapons in MWO can not be considered rapid fire, so a CoF doesn't really apply).

I still don't have 100% grasp of your first comment. By increasing the skill required to keep up the same performance, do you mean that by making shots less accurate it takes more skill to achieve the same performance? I would have to disagree. It just decreases the amount of skill required on the receiving end to spread damage. No increase of skill needed, just need to make more shots in the general direction of the Mech and cross your fingers that they go where you want them to.

I don't have a problem with convergence. Right now, we have a game that favors FLD weapons (PPCs, ACs, Gauss), which can be balanced by making the alternative forms of direct fire (SRMs, Lasers) a viable alternative.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 June 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[Naduk]

from what i remember (i cannot find the dev posts mentioning it)
convergence cannot be done due to HSR
the two are NOT mutually exclusive, however when used together create massive loads on the servers

also, convergence suffered a lot from ping interference, where by if you had a higher ping or fluctuating ping your convergence values would change constantly and dramatically

i would hazard a guess and say just like collisions, convergence will not get looked at until after community warfare has at least reached a playable state for the release build