75 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Ah I've been waiting for Bishop to chime in. You championed the last arms lock thread, what were your findings? And how were the results of those tests u were supposed to conduct?

have had very little chance to conduct anything since the client has been buggy as hell and I am largely unable to connect since the Launch Module was released. So what little UI have been on was devoted to documenting the Missile Bug on the Loup de Guerre patch, to force Russ into forcing Paul to quit playing candy crush and fix it (you are welcome, btw) or get 3-4 matches in for fun before the inevitable series of CTDs start again.

You know, you are totally allowed to test stuff too, right?

[Barkem Squirrel]

Having arm lock on allows for the jump snipers and mechs with many weapons in the arms and torsos to effectively engage with pinpoint accuracy.

Allows for new players to use weapons without shooting all over the place waiting for weapons convergence. God how I remember those days, with an arm laser going over and around a mech I was firing at. (It was an Awesome)

Allows for less buttons for the firing groups. (9 SPL Hunchback)

Some builds are superior without arm lock, but mainly are only arm mounted weapons or LRMs.


I still think it comes down to player choice, but with poptarts it is the only way to go.

[Trauglodyte]

Arm Lock should be a training tool and nothing else. It allows players to get around the intracasies of the game and that isn't healthy. Between Arm Lock, instant convergence, broken JJs giving massive edges to mechs with them vs. equal mechs without them, ECM (to a point - I'm still ok with it), the monstrous F up that is the missile system (some lock, some don't; some go to torso others lock on bones), and the idiocy that is the heat system, I'm surprised that PGI has had more than 5 people playing this game over the past 2 years.

Then again, we're to blame for this cause we keep on holding out hope and we keep letting them lead us by our noses.

[zazz0000]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

You know, you are totally allowed to test stuff too, right?

I know I'm allowed to, however I wasn't the one pounding a fist on my chest about how I'm gonna conduct the tests and what results I expect.

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I know I'm allowed to, however I wasn't the one pounding a fist on my chest about how I'm gonna conduct the tests and what results I expect.

IRL happens there chief, sorry I can't devote all of it, or convince PGI to have a stable enough server network to cater to your every whim. Especially since it was largely, if I recall, proven moot in that thread anyhow. But feel free to continue to be a roadblock, and contribute nothing of value to the conversation in either direction, or go prove me wrong.

[zazz0000]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

It allows players to get around the intracasies of the game and that isn't healthy.

Aha, and you propose removing a feature, thereby lowering the amount of said intricacies?
I firmly believe in using the right tools for the right job. Which is why I unlock the arms when I need them unlocked. Using the right mode at the right time makes me perform better overall.

Convergence is a problem in and of itself. The banshee will still put out meta pinpoint style even if it's removed. Your move.

[Ultimax]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

But we wouldn't. We'd just see VTR-9B more than the VTR-DS.

That's already saying quite a bit.

The VTR-9B/S have their weapons spread in both arms, which means no more shield arm, which means no more stripping that armor down to fit more stuff.

It also means those weapons are further apart at the start of their trajectory, as opposed to grouped physically closer as they are on the DS.

It also means you would have to expose the entire torso, both arms, to fire (which sometimes happens, but can be mitigated with single side biased groupings).

You know, all of the reasons why we see so many DS instead of 9S and 9B now.

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Why would you even want to fix a broken feature (convergence) by removing a perfectly healthy feature (arm lock)?

Unfortunately all signs point to the devs being unable to deal with convergence, if I had my choice of arm lock or AC/PPCs being nerfed, I'd choose arm lock because at least it doesn't damage individual weapon systems.

If you gave me a choice between dealing with perfect convergence and arm lock, I'd vote for convergence to be tweaked first.

I agree it's not an ideal solution, but I do feel arm lock's current functionality is a bit too high on precision for multiple weapon systems to deliver large alphas to a single location - and this is from someone who has no issue with large alphas themselves, and I personally am OK with the FLD weapons that we have.

The very fact you have people playing with it on all of the time, or telling us how superior it is - is pretty indicative that it is an outlier amongst mechanics.

Eddrick, on 02 June 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Arm Lock gives people a reason to take Mechs that have Lower Arm Actuators. Otherwise, we would see almost nothing but Stalkers, Catapult-K2s, and JagerMechs. Because, they have high mounted HardPoints and the Arms are naturaly locked with the Torso.

One of the benefits of other mechs that have lower arm actuators is their massively improved ability to track targets, and also use their arms to shield themselves in short/mid range engagemens.

I'm not convinced it would be the doom you predict, and I think having JJs would still be a solid advantage.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 June 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

No, what you're doing is utilizing an unnecessary tool to maximize your damage output by way of enhancing pin point FLD which, in turn, is extremely unhealthy for the game. But, I'm going to go ahead and squash your concept of "right tool for the right job" and ask you if you ever use Free Look in combat. When you respond with the predicted "no", you'll have completely invalidated your arguement and I can get on with the truth.

Btw, zazz, that isn't intended to sound like an attack. After reading it, it kind of comes off as snarky. But, the truth of the matter is that people are using the Arm Lock toggle to get around a penalty system to make FLD even better than it should be for the game. Intended or not, something has to give because this game is getting worse as we move along.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 June 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[zazz0000]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

No, what you're doing is utilizing an unnecessary tool to maximize your damage output by way of enhancing pin point FLD which, in turn, is extremely unhealthy for the game. But, I'm going to go ahead and squash your concept of "right tool for the right job" and ask you if you ever use Free Look in combat. When you respond with the predicted "no", you'll have completely invalidated your arguement and I can get on with the truth.

Lol, I actually do use my L-CTRL quite a lot. Several uses include charging with my shield side forward (while still looking in the direction of my movement), doing quick area scans when guarding a chokepoint, keeping eyes on target in steep up/down engagements, and doing sneaky **** like deflecting the arms without twisting the torso (pretty nice on the atlas with his 45 degree arm deflection). Spotting missiles too (edit).

And as per your edit, Trauglodyte, convergence isn't the only reason why I personally prefer running arms lock by default. Also, why is it only about FLD? Lasers could use just about all the help they can get....

Edited by zazz0000, 02 June 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Lol, I actually do use my L-CTRL quite a lot. Several uses include charging with my shield side forward (while still looking in the direction of my movement), doing quick area scans when guarding a chokepoint, keeping eyes on target in steep up/down engagements, and doing sneaky **** like deflecting the arms without twisting the torso (pretty nice on the atlas with his 45 degree arm deflection). Spotting missiles too (edit).

And as per your edit, Trauglodyte, convergence isn't the only reason why I personally prefer running arms lock by default. Also, why is it only about FLD? Lasers could use just about all the help they can get....

Kudos to you for using Free Look. You and I make two people that I know that use it let alone know about it.

FLD are the weapons that become exponentially more powerful with Arm Lock. Lasers gain some from it but nearly as much as heavy projectiles (SRMs = lol with arm lock). Arm Lock would honestly probably be a non-issue if convergence still affected accuracy with arm mounted weapons even with it on. But, we don't have penalties in game that impact convergence so you end up with what we have. I really could care less about it as I hardly play the game anymore and I don't see PGI doing what is needed to fix it given the limited options that they have TO fix it. Add to that the fact that most people have already raged against the idea of heat penalties and see a heat based convergence penalty as being the same thing as Cone of Fire (it isn't, btw) and we're left with the status quo. I'm really unsure about the future of this game because the player base seems entrenched in what we have and that makes me feel like PGI is too scared to make too drastic of a change for fear of losing more players or alienating further the new players coming in.

[zazz0000]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

FLD are the weapons that become exponentially more powerful with Arm Lock.

Yes, if the weapons are split between arms and torso. So say it was removed, does it fix the current state of FLD pinpoint meta? Or does it simply shift it to mechs that can still run it as efficiently, with all weapons either on torso or arms?
I recall one fix to the meta of the time a while ago, when quad-PPC stalkers ruled the battlefield. Behold - ghost heat. IIRC that was also a bandaid for high-alpha-pinpoint-fld. Now a year later, we've trimmed 10 damage from the pinpoint alpha, yet the problem still exists. And we have f'n ghost heat. Go ahead, remove arm lock, evolve a new meta, complain about that, and we'll discuss some other partly-relevant feature to add or remove.

[Trauglodyte]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Yes, if the weapons are split between arms and torso. So say it was removed, does it fix the current state of FLD pinpoint meta? Or does it simply shift it to mechs that can still run it as efficiently, with all weapons either on torso or arms?
I recall one fix to the meta of the time a while ago, when quad-PPC stalkers ruled the battlefield. Behold - ghost heat. IIRC that was also a bandaid for high-alpha-pinpoint-fld. Now a year later, we've trimmed 10 damage from the pinpoint alpha, yet the problem still exists. And we have f'n ghost heat. Go ahead, remove arm lock, evolve a new meta, complain about that, and we'll discuss some other partly-relevant feature to add or remove.

As a solo fix, it wouldn't solve all of our issues. ACs need to be 3 shot bursts, PPCs need something similar, and there needs to be a heat based penalty system which removes our efficiences and turns them into penalties along with a covergence push (forcing your aim point back so that the angle to your target becomes longer). Once we're there, JJ heat would need to be addressed, along with falling damage being improved, and soem sort of bonus needs to be given to mechs that are JJ free (Raven vs Jenner is a horrible thing as is the rest). I don't much mind how people deal damage and there will always be people that are better at it than I am. But, what this game needs an extreme dose of is breathing room. Turning a corner and getting vaporized isn't good for anyone and having 3 weapons being the end all be all vs everything else is also a horrible thing. Hell, I kind of enjoy LRMs and am really pissed off that we are still here, 2+ years later, and they still all go center mass when upping the damage but adding the "seak bones" fix that was given to Streaks isn't the better answer.

The game needs a lot of work but they're creeping along like both the company and franchise together are strong enough to keep our interests. They're wrong.

[zazz0000]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

As a solo fix, it wouldn't solve all of our issues.

That. Lol.

And the rest of your post is good too. And I'd love to see all of those changes implemented.

But FFS leave my arm lock alone, I likes it the way it is. For me it's not even so much about the pinpoint ability, rather the gaming experience itself. And I'm not alone in that boat. And I'd probably also rather eat 30 pinpoint damage all day than deal with the UI and the camera bouncing around like a ping pong ball.

[Ultimax]

zazz0000, on 02 June 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

And I'm not alone in that boat. And I'd probably also rather eat 30 pinpoint damage all day than deal with the UI and the camera bouncing around like a ping pong ball.

Why would your camera bounce around like a ping pong ball.

That sounds like your DPI setting is probably very high. While I tend to keep mine around 5000 for normal use, I usually drop it between 200 and 450 for MWO (to be fair, I do have 5 settings spread from 200 up to 5000).

[zazz0000]

Ultimatum X, on 02 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why would your camera bounce around like a ping pong ball.

That sounds like your DPI setting is probably very high. While I tend to keep mine around 5000 for normal use, I usually drop it between 200 and 450 for MWO (to be fair, I do have 5 settings spread from 200 up to 5000).

Camera is currently oriented towards the midpoint between the torso and the arms crosshairs. Arms have very high movement speeds (upward of 180 degrees a second I'd imagine). So yea, flicking the mouse around causes a good bit of fast camera movement, which I personally find unpleasant.

[n r g]

Kaldor, on 02 June 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Energy, this is not a proper forum to referring to people as "kid". You do yourself a dis-service and only cause people to discredit what ever you say when you use comments like that. Most of the old guard have played every version of Mechwarrior... They are hardly "kids" Now, the fact remains that 2 single changes made jump sniping alot easier. One of them being arm lock. The other being insta convergence. As Kon clearly shows, it was a different game back when we had slower convergence, and no arm lock. TTK/TTL was much higher.

Good point bro, sorry