12 replies to this topic

[babadude71]

just something that i have noticed,

playing a few drops, (cant do any more than an hour of repetitive grinding) i noticed that the damage difference (effect) are vastly different between the 2 weapon types.

I compared 2 ac10's vs 2 ppc's (standard) against the catapult in the training grounds, hitting the same area right side torso. I counted the amount of shots needed to kill the mech,
(if i got an ammo explosion i had to restart the test)

PPC at 450m took 23 individual shots to kill the mech
AC 10's at 450m took 25 individual shots to kill the mech

erppc has the same result.

Both ammo types apparently do the same amount of damage so why does one weapon type require more hits to kill a mech?
10 damage is 10 damage regardless of weapon or ammo type

ppc at 270m took 23 individual shots to to kill the mech
AC20 at 270m took 13 (12.5) individual shot to kill the mech (equates to 26 shots from an ac10 but the last shot can be halfed due to remaining health left)

im not sure if this is hit detection or just a balancing issue but i ran this test 6 times on all weapon types and the results were the same each time of testing.


( i make this statement because there are no special effects to munition as of yet, i mean one would expect ballistic munition effects to have armor and radial damage and ppc would have more effect on internal components and not the mechs armor, but both types of munitions behave exactly the same)

This game title is almost 2 years into development and the weapons are disappointing to say the least, very inconsistent and un-realistic, missiles fly like i have never seen missiles fly before, (even low budget indie games have a far better realism to their missile flight path and behavior), the only weapon i have noticed that has a linear behavioral pattern is the laser so thumbs up for that but everything else requires some sort of realistic patch.
Ballistics should behave with radial damage from the point of contact and have more influence on armor (excluding machine guns) the same should apply to the ppc weapon but have less influence on armor and more emphasis on internals
(disrupt or even disable certain aspects of functionality, basically it should effect electrical systems) but with such effects in place it would be classed as a specialised weapon and would obviously have to have an overhaul on heat and firing frequency, such a weapon should be used wisely and sparingly.
In the weapons array available to pilots there are really only two weapons that should have pin point accuracy abilities and those are the lasers and Gauss rifle and that is purely down to the weapon behavior, and i just love the gauss kitty

But like many threads i have read on this matter nothing seems to happen other than mechs for sale (and it gets torn apart in an attempt to de-rail it's content), so as a whole this game has so much potential and offers so little, i can only assume that the game content and progression is hindering players to invest into a game title that is a rinse and repeat grind which is contradictory to its description and predecessor titles.

The art work is just excellent, the map detailing is awesome and realistic, mech modelling and movement is just so cool, even the shake from weapons hitting you and the flash of munitions exploding around you can really make you jump if your not expecting it, graphically this game is quite superior to some other games out there but this is all let down.

If i was to compare this to a meal in a restaurant i would have to say
"It looks fantastic, tastes awful oh and where's my dessert?"

[Thorqemada]

(ER)PPC at 450m need 88 sec to kill that Mech (if you get the heat cooling down that fast).
AC10 at 450m need 60 sec to kill that Mech and never have heat problems.

What is the better weapon here?

[Ultimax]

babadude71, on 01 June 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

PPC at 450m took 23 individual shots to kill the mech
AC 10's at 450m took 25 individual shots to kill the mech

ppc at 270m took 23 individual shots to to kill the mech
AC20 at 270m took 13 (12.5) individual shot to kill the mech (equates to 26 shots from an ac10 but the last shot can be halfed due to remaining health left)

Without seeing a video of your test, I can't make any statements.

However in both tests you are near the limit of the ballistic weapon's range, so it's possible there was projectile drop and not hitting the same spot or damage drop off wonkyness.


Were you shooting the CT every time for all of the tests?

[Ryokens leap]

Don't trust any metrics in training grounds, probably the most bugged part of MWO.

Edited by Ryokens leap, 01 June 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[Sarlic]

Ryokens leap, on 01 June 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Don't trust any metrics in training grounds, probably the most bugged part of MWO.

Clicks traning grounds.

Gets a looped black screen with 'connecting'.
Endless connecting screen till i kill the proces.

Such a wonderful bug.

Edited by Sarlic, 01 June 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Willard Phule]

I get what you're saying and I agree that there's a problem with PPC mechanics in general....but, unfortunately, using the Training Grounds doesn't really mean anything.

Training Grounds is client-side...meaning, entirely resident on YOUR computer. It's NOT the same thing as playing live since then you're playing on PGI's server and the combined lag of you and your target absolutely effect the HSR. That's why ALL energy weapons (even the PPC, for some reason) are effected by it.

I have seen a wall of poptarts hit targets with multiple PPC hits that should have easily dropped the target in question about as often as I've seen people launching a pornographic number of SRMs at people at under 200m and get the same result. Sometimes the HSR is your friend and you devastate your opponent.....sometimes it hates you and you get maybe 30% of the total damage you should have done. Call it what you want, it all amounts to the same thing...this game doesn't handle lag very well at all.

They managed to get semi-controlled missiles figured out, to a point. The only reason LRMs are even semi-viable is due to the speed increase...and even that got nerfed due to the avalanche of whining PGI received. It's almost as if they completely disregarded all the input with regard to the trajectory and "direct fire" vs "indirect fire"...but, PGI isn't known for taking input from their community. Streaks are...well, at least they're viable on lights and mediums. It's a guided SRM2, what do you expect? In either case, there is some kind of coding that controls where they actually hit...and yes, there is controversy over the concentrations of both, since PGI can't seem to get anything right, ever.

I don't know how they did it, but a couple of patches ago, they got the ballistics dialed in. That's why you're seeing so many multiple AC5/UCA5 builds all of a sudden. Even the AC10 has made a comeback.

When you launch a semi-guided missile, you do damage. It may just be to sandpaper off his armor, but it's a hit. When you fire an AC of any flavor, you do damage. It may not be where you were aiming (HSR) or as much as you expected (HSR), but you DO damage. When you fire a laser, you'll register a hit.....the amount of damage is dependent on lots of variables but you average maybe 25-35% of grouped energy weapons. If you're lucky. PPCs....you'd think they would act like ACs and be just as effective but....maybe the HSR isn't looking for them like it's looking for ACs. Dunno.

[Ebon Wing]

My guess is some of the shots are critting and some are not /shrug.

[Mcgral18]

Ebon Wing, on 01 June 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

My guess is some of the shots are critting and some are not /shrug.

Ditto. 15% crit damage is sent to the IS.

[babadude71]

Ultimatum X, on 01 June 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Without seeing a video of your test, I can't make any statements.

However in both tests you are near the limit of the ballistic weapon's range, so it's possible there was projectile drop and not hitting the same spot or damage drop off wonkyness.


Were you shooting the CT every time for all of the tests?

yes i was hitting the right torso each time and then the ct through the right torso.

Ah okay crit damage i didnt even consider that was implemented into coding.....yea maybe thats the difference, but same result 6 times.

[DONTOR]

Thorqemada, on 01 June 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

(ER)PPC at 450m need 88 sec to kill that Mech (if you get the heat cooling down that fast).
AC10 at 450m need 60 sec to kill that Mech and never have heat problems.

What is the better weapon here?

The one with infinite ammo, more range, flat trajectory, not about to be nerfed hard, and weighs 6-7 tons less after ammo(excluding DHS for PPC)

[Deathlike]

babadude71, on 01 June 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

just something that i have noticed,

playing a few drops, (cant do any more than an hour of repetitive grinding) i noticed that the damage difference (effect) are vastly different between the 2 weapon types.

I compared 2 ac10's vs 2 ppc's (standard) against the catapult in the training grounds, hitting the same area right side torso. I counted the amount of shots needed to kill the mech,
(if i got an ammo explosion i had to restart the test)

PPC at 450m took 23 individual shots to kill the mech
AC 10's at 450m took 25 individual shots to kill the mech

erppc has the same result.

Both ammo types apparently do the same amount of damage so why does one weapon type require more hits to kill a mech?
10 damage is 10 damage regardless of weapon or ammo type

ppc at 270m took 23 individual shots to to kill the mech
AC20 at 270m took 13 (12.5) individual shot to kill the mech (equates to 26 shots from an ac10 but the last shot can be halfed due to remaining health left)

im not sure if this is hit detection or just a balancing issue but i ran this test 6 times on all weapon types and the results were the same each time of testing.


( i make this statement because there are no special effects to munition as of yet, i mean one would expect ballistic munition effects to have armor and radial damage and ppc would have more effect on internal components and not the mechs armor, but both types of munitions behave exactly the same)

If I'm going to hazard a guess, you might be reaching that "optimal range" weirdness that occurs with missiles.

What you are probably experiencing is that the weapon is actually "shooting past" optimal range and dealing microscopically "less damage" thus causing more shots than required.

If you're shooting @ like 400 to 425m, the numbers would probably be the same (the expected behavior).

The reticle is not "perfectly accurate" because it doesn't really factor in where your projectile is shooting from, as a "gun arm" would project from a slightly different location and distance from a torso mounted weapon... just on a simple math-physics POV.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 June 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Ultimax]

babadude71, on 01 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

yes i was hitting the right torso each time and then the ct through the right torso.

Ah okay crit damage i didnt even consider that was implemented into coding.....yea maybe thats the difference, but same result 6 times.

If you are shooting through the destroyed right torso then something odd might be going on with the hits due to the damage transfer.

Shoot the target dead on CT from the front at 250m. I think you'll find the AC 10 and PPC will likely require the same number of shots.

That plus the potential of being at the edge of optimal range for the ballistics are the likely culprits.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 June 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Ultimax]

Thorqemada, on 01 June 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

(ER)PPC at 450m need 88 sec to kill that Mech (if you get the heat cooling down that fast).
AC10 at 450m need 60 sec to kill that Mech and never have heat problems.

What is the better weapon here?

Is there a clear answer here?

More mechs can slot the PPC due to it's lower weight.

It pays for that lower weight in heat vs. the AC 10.

That's the case with all energy weapons, high alpha potential for low weight at the cost of heat.

AC 10 +3 Tons Ammo = 15 tons.
PPC = 7 Tons


And before anyone starts in with the "you need DHS" - yes you do need DHS, but you get some (often 10) free in your engine and if you don't have 12 tons free on your build you can't even slot an AC 10, and if you don't take at least one ton of ammo you can't fire it at all.

The same isn't true for the PPC, your build only needs 7 tons and you can work with the DHS in your engine in worst case scenarios.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 June 2014 - 08:26 PM.