30 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

I keep seeing these threads about jump jets being a problem with the game. Jump jets are not the problem. And nerfing them is attacking the real problems from the wrong direction.

What needs to be fixed:

1. Movement for mechs without jump jets is to restricted now. They clearly went to far when nerfing the ability of mechs to climb hills. This needs dialed back.

B. As part of this the maps were never designed for the climbing limits we have. So the maps all need to be gone over again also.

2. Pin point damage at range. This is the cause of the current jump sniping problem. You can jump and have perfect accuracy at range. This could be fixed by adding a little shake on the way down also. Or making convergence not be 100% while in the air. And doing it this way would have the benefit of encouraging people to get close into brawling distance.

B. Pin point accuracy at range in general should be worked on. If you only do jump jets you just make people in ridge humpers.

3. (Possible) Another mechanic that might works is this. When weopons are fired it causes recticle shake. That way you get it no matter if you are standing still or running. The larger the alpha the more it shakes and the longer it takes to calm down.

What does not need to be done:

1. Drastic nerfs to jump jets that are not a problem in brawling range. Jump jets in brawing distance are just not a problem. They are just another option of play style. And this game needs all the options of play style it can get.

2. Do not make it so you only have convergence when standing still. This will only encourage people to stand around even more.

3. Make only one style of play viable. One problem now is at the top end jump sniping is the main viable way to play on many maps. What we want are a nice range of play styles that are all viable at all levels of game play.

There are more but that covers the basics. Thing to always try to do is think out unintended consequences of any change you do.

As a side note what needs to be done is for people to talk about what type of game play they are after. Many people are just throwing out ideas that only help one type of game play the like of think the game should be. While what we want is a balance in game play.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 02 June 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[FupDup]

XX Sulla XX, on 02 June 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

2. Do not make it so you only have convergence when standing still. This will only encourage people to stand around even more.

I'm going to quote this specific part, because a lot of people don't realize it yet (but they need to!).

Not @ Sulla:
Those hill humpers firing huge alphas downrange don't move very fast when they take the shot. Having penalties for movement does not hurt them. Movement penalties only hurt mechs that rely on mobility as their only strengths, like mediums and lights. If you hover over the "play now" button in-game, you will almost certain see heavies and assaults being far more common than either lower class, so it would only nerf the least used classes. Nerfing that which is used the least is a really, really dumb idea. Every time somebody suggests penalties for choosing mechs that sacrifice firepower and armor for mobility, my Shadow Hawk punches a kitten.

Edited by FupDup, 02 June 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I do feel they need the incoming nerf. And it's one that doesn't punish most brawlers. But the scaling leg damage for heavier mechs is just logical, and a good step to at least forcing a little more skill into the JumpSnipe meta, as if you take your VTR or HGN now, you slap on 1, MAYBE 2 JJ, max it out to clear cover, fire and drop, un cushioned, for zero leg damage.

Conversely a Locust or Commando step off a bloody pebble and their leg goes yellow. I would say a quarter of my Light Mech deaths were at least indirectly results of leg damage from bloody running, or jumping, and I DO feather and cushion my jumps, but I swear a i meter drop in a Light is a good way to snap a leg, lol.

Other than that, I agree with you.

BTW, Jumpsnipe Meta?

Spoiler

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Take an already existing mechanic to fix it.

We have Cockpit/Reticle Shake on the "Up-Jump". What is so hard about extending that Shake into the first .3-1.0 second of the "Down-Jump"?

Sympathetic vibrations don't end the moment the thrust does. Ain't how physics work. What it does though, is force the Jumper to Jump Higher, thus exposing more of their mech, for a longer time, to be able to have that same shot window as before. This instantly impact the Risk/Reward Ratio, and makes it much less the no-brainer tactic it currently is, while also increasing the required skill curve to use it effectively.

Thus, the tactic remains viable, but it would largely disappear in lower Elo Tiers, and even in upper Elos, the R/Rr is not so strong as to make it the mandatory Meta it is right now.

And if it were combined with the proposal to correctly scale leg damage to mass, non JJ cushioned landings? This would cause them to actually mount full JJs (or close to) to have enough thrust to get the shot AND land without breaking their legs. Not to mention the braking thrust would increase the shot window against them, potentially, also.


Thoughts?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 June 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[InsiderGamer]

I largely agree with you. An earlier post I made:

What I would like to see is due to the crosshair shake (less so on smaller weight classes), Jump Jet+Shoot is relegated to closer encounters. Therefore, there is an increased risk mechanic behind this. You should still be able to Jump+Shoot+fall back into cover and hit largely what you're aiming at, but only at closer ranges.

Further away, and you will more than likely miss, which I can't see this as *not* being a fair tradeoff for the ability to fall back into cover quickly, and increase mobility.

Also, this would help in reducing the increased effectiveness of Air Strikes and Artillery Strikes in the hands of a meta 'Jump Sniper'. If you're a smaller 'Mech, you'll still be able to make use of JJ's to Jump+Plant an Art Strike/Air Strike relatively accurately. (This is good! Lighter 'Mechs definitely need more of a 'role' in the game.)


Also Bishop Steiner, my thoughts to your edited "Jumpsnipe Meta" quote? I am a fan. +1 Like

Edited by InsiderGamer, 02 June 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

InsiderGamer, on 02 June 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I largely agree with you. An earlier post I made:

What I would like to see is due to the crosshair shake (less so on smaller weight classes), Jump Jet+Shoot is relegated to closer encounters. Therefore, there is an increased risk mechanic behind this. You should still be able to Jump+Shoot+fall back into cover and hit largely what you're aiming at, but only at closer ranges.

Further away, and you will more than likely miss, which I can't see this as *not* being a fair tradeoff for the ability to fall back into cover quickly, and increase mobility.

Also, this would help in reducing the increased effectiveness of Air Strikes and Artillery Strikes in the hands of a meta 'Jump Sniper'. If you're a smaller 'Mech, you'll still be able to make use of JJ's to Jump+Plant an Art Strike/Air Strike relatively accurately. (This is good! Lighter 'Mechs definitely need more of a 'role' in the game.)


Also Bishop Steiner, my thoughts to your edited "Jumpsnipe Meta" quote? I am a fan. +1 Like

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

"I'm going to quote this specific part, because a lot of people don't realize it yet (but they need to!).

Not @ Sulla:
Those hill humpers firing huge alphas downrange don't move very fast when they take the shot. Having penalties for movement does not hurt them. Movement penalties only hurt mechs that rely on mobility as their only strengths, like mediums and lights. If you hover over the "play now" button in-game, you will almost certain see heavies and assaults being far more common than either lower class, so it would only nerf the least used classes. Nerfing that which is used the least is a really, really dumb idea. Every time somebody suggests penalties for choosing mechs that sacrifice firepower and armor for mobility, my Shadow Hawk kills a kitten."

Exactly we have to have viable mediums and lights for the game to work well.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I do feel they need the incoming nerf. And it's one that doesn't punish most brawlers. But the scaling leg damage for heavier mechs is just logical, and a good step to at least forcing a little more skill into the JumpSnipe meta, as if you take your VTR or HGN now, you slap on 1, MAYBE 2 JJ, max it out to clear cover, fire and drop, un cushioned, for zero leg damage.

I'm pretty far from some elite jump sniping machine, but I'll go out on a limb and say it's extremely unlikely that Assault JJ snipers are only using 1 JJ, to be honest I doubt they are even using just 2 for the HGN.


That might not sound like much of a consolation to ground locked mechs, but at 2 tons a piece for the highlander 3x JJs = 6 tons, that's pretty extreme on most builds with a STD engine.

6 tons is a lot, and 2-3 tons on the VTR while not as massive it's still a solid build chunk.

[Khobai]

Agreed. The problem isnt jumpjets.

The problems are hill climbing is too punitive. And pinpoint damage makes jump sniping too good. Reduce both those and the game will be fine again.

1) make 20kph the absolute minimum speed when climbing hills no matter the angle. Right now mechs slow down so much sometimes they get hung up trying to step over the smallest rocks. Increasing the minimum speed to 20kph while hill climbing should mostly eliminate this problem.

2) implement burst fire on ALL ACs (but also add different ammo types for standard ACs), give PPCs arcing damage (but also make them disrupt hud targeting), and lower damage on Gauss (but also remove chargeup and give it a chance to armor pierce). That replaces the pinpoint damage with utility instead, which keeps these weapons unique and worthwhile to use, but also reduces their pinpoint damage to reasonable levels. Weapons should be more about utility anyway than straight up how much damage they do; thats how you properly balance this many weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Biaxialrain]

I see jump jets as a problem.

Huge, mega ton mechs that jump while firing and suffer no drawbacks take away from the core of the game. Jump jets should provide minimal lift for overcoming obstacles only. They should also take up way more slots and tonnage as the jets to move multiple tons would be huge. Heat build up and recharge should be much more than they currently are.

In fact, the game would be that much better without them. What would those players use as an advantage then? They'd have to think before acting.

The same guys b1tching about peek-a-boo shooters from behind cover are poptarts, I don't get it.

Edited by Biaxialrain, 02 June 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I do feel they need the incoming nerf. And it's one that doesn't punish most brawlers. But the scaling leg damage for heavier mechs is just logical, and a good step to at least forcing a little more skill into the JumpSnipe meta, as if you take your VTR or HGN now, you slap on 1, MAYBE 2 JJ, max it out to clear cover, fire and drop, un cushioned, for zero leg damage.

However, as an example, consider the Atlas that wants to drop down the steep sides of the I9 hill in Alpine...he'd have to take the long way around to avoid serious leg damage. Yes, more realistic, but any fall damage increase based on weight doesn't just affect jump snipers. It's really the inverse of the hill-climb nerf, which didn't hurt mechs with JJs as much as it did heavy brawlers.

Biaxialrain, on 02 June 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

The same guys b1tching about peek-a-boo shooters from behind cover are poptarts, I don't get it.

Because they feel forced to take a poptarter to counter a poptarter, or lose every match.

[Khobai]

Quote

Huge, mega ton mechs that jump while firing and suffer no drawbacks take away from the core of the game.

well I agree jumpjets should have slightly more drawbacks... but im happy with them just making jumpjets generate more heat, which theyre doing anyway, provided they also make hillclimbing less punitive and reduce pinpoint damage.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Real problem is skill levels vary wildly. The reason most people cry about pop tarts is because they lack the skill to actually get results doing it. We could go back to BT where you hit a random body part every time you hit, but even then most of the people crying wouldnt hit very often.

[Dymlos2003]

They aren't nerfing jumpjets. They are making them actually work like it should.

[Trauglodyte]

Actually, JJs are part of the overall problem because:

• They don't generate enough heat to warrant their constant use and
  
• They make it so that they exceed the viability of land locked mechs of equal weight

I don't dislike JJs and have them on a lot of mechs. But, nothing pisses me off more than seeing good mechs get sloshed to the side simply because they weren't designed with JJs. It is pathetic and yet another collosal failure on the part of the Canadians.

[Sug]

I miss the old JJs that actually rocketed you UP instead of just forward. Need to find something to ramp off of to get any height unless you're standing still. That change basically did nothing that affected poptarts. Surprise surprise.

[Khobai]

Quote

They aren't nerfing jumpjets. They are making them actually work like it should.

Not quite. Jumpjets on heavier mechs didnt generate less thrust or more heat than jumpjets on lighter mechs.

In tabletop, having 4 jumpjets produced the same heat and thrust regardless of whether they were on a Jenner or Highlander. The only difference is the Highlander paid 2 tons per jumpjet while the Jenner paid 0.5 tons per jumpjet.

Also jumpjets in tabletop basically allowed directional thrusting, you could do some crazy maneuvers with them, that you cant do in MWO. Jumpjets should have vectored thrust and be able to thrust you in any direction.

[Lykaon]

Poptarting is a symptom and not a core issue.The under laying core issue is the mechanics of front loaded damage vs armor mechanics and how all other damage application methods are under powered compared to the FLD method.

I could go on and explain exactaly how FLD breaks the mechanics but I won't I have done this plenty of times already.

I will however point out that poptarting is the issue being discussed and the weapons used to poptart are ALL FRONT LOADED DAMAGE.

We never complain that a large laser poptart or a LRM poptart is overpowered or unfair or "broken" why is that?

Because poptarting with those weapons does not produce the highly effective results that FLD weapons do.Without the FLD mechanics supporting jump snipers this techinique will simply be a quirky tactic used with moderate success under certain situations,or a non issue.

So let's assume we nerf jets so poptarting is no longer viable.Well guess what? group fired FLD weapons producing 30+ damage alphas are still the best.We now have crappy jets and still have a FLD issue dictating the meta.

[InsiderGamer]

Lykaon, on 02 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Poptarting is a symptom and not a core issue.The under laying core issue is the mechanics of front loaded damage vs armor mechanics and how all other damage application methods are under powered compared to the FLD method.

I could go on and explain exactaly how FLD breaks the mechanics but I won't I have done this plenty of times already.

I will however point out that poptarting is the issue being discussed and the weapons used to poptart are ALL FRONT LOADED DAMAGE.

We never complain that a large laser poptart or a LRM poptart is overpowered or unfair or "broken" why is that?

Because poptarting with those weapons does not produce the highly effective results that FLD weapons do.Without the FLD mechanics supporting jump snipers this techinique will simply be a quirky tactic used with moderate success under certain situations,or a non issue.

So let's assume we nerf jets so poptarting is no longer viable.Well guess what? group fired FLD weapons producing 30+ damage alphas are still the best.We now have crappy jets and still have a FLD issue dictating the meta.

While your point does not go unnoticed, can you not agree a small change such as adding back some of the crosshair shake (which was in the game before) on fall would make the game play a little better?

Maybe it doesn't fix everything, and no one is saying it will, but it should go a long way to alleviating the grumbles on the forum and game. That is to say, why does perfection have to be the enemy of what's necessary?

You're a smart guy. You know PGI doesn't do in halves what can be done in quarters (ie. they move slowly). Fixing Front Loaded Damage (FLD) is a thing I can agree on to some extent. But that's going to take some time. A small fix like this would make the interim a lot less agonizing.

Can we not agree on this?

(Also, you now have 1337 posts. Awesome.)

Edited by InsiderGamer, 02 June 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually, JJs are part of the overall problem because:

I agree JJs themselves are a very small part of the overall problem. Mainly because theres no real downside to mechs with jumpjets. It would be nice if mechs with jumpjets were valuated with that in mind when determining how many module slots they get. A -2 module slot penalty seems reasonable to any mech with jumpjets.

However for the most part jumpsniping IS a symptom of frontloaded damage weapons like PPCs and ACs though.

[Shibas]

They already fixed jump sniping a long time ago with the original jump-shake. Then they quickly lowered the shake to pretty much what it is now, a minor inconvenience, when someone complained about motion sickness.

It's already been stated by pgi during closed beta/open beta (in one of the ask the devs, when they actually did them) that they will not change the "pin point accuracy" way of playing for a target reticle or random location shooting because they wanted it a "skill" based shooting game.

About the only thing they did to reduce long range sniping what change heatvision to it's current look and reduce the visual range on heat/night vision.