86 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 03 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

The problem is crap like the Victor having the same armor as the Awesome. Victors were always lacking armor in tabletop. By giving the Victor and Awesome the same max armor, you completely invalidate the Awesome. Imagine if the Victor had a better profile and jumpjets but lower max armor and less modules slots. And the Awesome had a worse profile, higher max armor, a synergy bonus for using PPCs, and more module slots. Now these mechs are much closer to being equal.

Did wrote almost the same today - when somebody said that perfect balancing is never possible, because there is every time something that works better. That happen when you try to balance things out - instead of "players" choice.

The best way to balance MWO is to add a incredible variety of combinations - hardly possible to balance and not needed.
So for example - > if the Awesome can mount one additional weapon before ghost heat kicks in and it got an additional 10 point cap and 1 dissipation for free -> you have a viable energy boat with teeth - but its still the same "barn" on two legs that you hardly can miss it.

(can't work? oh it will work - take a look at 3145 BattleTech if you dare - lets predict you like the Carronade and you take two of them -> you can defeat almost every mech really fast and dirty - but if the enemy think that the Silver Bullet is OP he don't have to cry for nerfs he simple take a Mad Cat IV or a Mad Cat II Enhanced....virtually reducing the firepower of your Mechs by half
To be fair, this idea is not new at all. Its as old as MWO is in Open Beta (at least) maybe even older

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 June 2014 - 01:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 03 June 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

Keep in mind the alternative is what we saw in the tournament. A handful of chassis with near identical loadouts. Even with different maps and objectives, we saw the same chassis each map, just weighted in one direction or the other to meet tonnage restrictions.

I know its a game, but as it is a combat game that supposedly will involve House Armies an Mercs... Uniform Weapon use is normal. I don't expect to see Ravens in a Kurita force, they use Jenners.House Marik should be fielding Orions since they build those and Davions should have Jagers as it is their happy place for now. That is how I see things needing to work for CW anyway.

[CDLord HHGD]

FupDup, on 03 June 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

......If anything, it actually is what all medium mechs should have been like from the start......

I don't know if I agree with this... For me, the Hunchback is the Medium that all Mediums should be like. It's smaller, with a diverse yet unique weapons package... Maneuverable, especially when upgraded. Powerful, when played right, but not game breaking powerful..

The Shadowhawk just seems too large...

Edited by cdlord, 04 June 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 03 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

They cant, since those mechs arnt all that diverse. A lot of mechs are similar/identical or outright worse than other mechs and theres just no reason to ever use them. Sales are really going to slow down once any new mech that comes out is just a rehash of an existing mech.

what pgi needs to do is give us a reason to play every single mech.

The problem is crap like the Victor having the same armor as the Awesome. Victors were always lacking armor in tabletop. By giving the Victor and Awesome the same max armor, you completely invalidate the Awesome. Imagine if the Victor had a better profile and jumpjets but lower max armor and less modules slots. And the Awesome had a worse profile, higher max armor, a synergy bonus for using PPCs, and more module slots. Now these mechs are much closer to being equal.

PGI needs to do a better job of giving every mech strengths and weaknesses that balance out.

I'm confused... Awesomes and Victors have always had the same MAX armor. Victors just had less than that max when stock.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm confused... Awesomes and Victors have always had the same MAX armor. Victors just had less than that max when stock.

Exactly - they also could have a 400 engine - but the engine size was capped - but not the armor. (shudder a pair of speed Awesomes with 4 SSRM2s - that was awesome)
The JagerMech wouldn't be that interesting when you only have 9ton of armor at best.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm confused... Awesomes and Victors have always had the same MAX armor. Victors just had less than that max when stock.

I meant max armor should be based on the amount of armor the stock mech has. So Victors should have lower max armor than awesomes because stock Victors have less armor than stock Awesomes. A stock Victor has anywhere between 8.5-11.5 tons, while a stock Awesome has 15 tons. Its a huge difference.

Jagermechs would also have their characteristic paper thin armor. And mechs like the Catapult and Thunderbolt would stack up better against the Jagermech.

Obviously the canon 6.5 tons isnt enough armor for a Jagermech though. So something like stock armor+2 tons would probably be good as a max (so a jagermech could have 8.5 tons of armor at most, instead of the 12 tons of armor it normally has).

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 04 June 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Exactly - they also could have a 400 engine - but the engine size was capped - but not the armor. (shudder a pair of speed Awesomes with 4 SSRM2s - that was awesome)
The JagerMech wouldn't be that interesting when you only have 9ton of armor at best.

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

I meant max armor should be based on the amount of armor the stock mech has. So victors should have lower max armor than awesomes because stock victors have less armor than stock awesomes.

Jagermechs would also have their characteristic paper thin armor. And mechs like the Catapult and Thunderbolt would stack up better against the Jagermech.

The cap was a false limit put in cause of Lag shielding if I remember correctly. It also forces the use of different chassis for different performance preferences.

But to armor... I would not like to see a silly limit on this. Victors were originally built for close combat (no weapons range past 280M). So allowing full armor would make sense.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2014 - 05:25 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The cap was a false limit put in cause of Lag shielding if I remember correctly. It also forces the use of different chassis for different performance preferences.

No it doesnt. Allowing a Victor to have the same armor as an Awesome simply make the Awesome inferior. It makes the Victor outright better and discourages the use of different chassis.

Quote

But to armor... I would not like to see a silly limit on this. Victors were originally built for close combat (no weapons range past 280M). So allowing full armor would make sense.

Except no canon variant of the Victor carries max armor in tabletop. So this is simply not true.

Victors are second-line support mechs. Theyre not meant to be part of the vanguard like Awesomes or Atlases. Which is why they dont have max armor in tabletop and why they shouldnt have max armor in MWO.

From Sarna:
"The Victor approaches the concept of support in an unorthodox way for a 'Mech of its weight class. While only possessing a ground speed of 64.8 km/h, the Victor achieves a high degree of mobility instead through the use of four jump jets, allowing it to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. A Victor can therefore "support" friendly units by jumping directly into the fray and bringing its deadly close range arsenal to bear"

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

No it doesnt. Allowing a Victor to have the same armor as an Awesome simply make the Awesome inferior. It makes the Victor outright better and discourages the use of different chassis.


Except no canon variant of the Victor carries max armor in tabletop. So this is simply not true.

The Awesome was (mainly) a Direct fire Support Mech, Victors were a get in your face punch holes in you street fighting beast. So I disagree on which Mech SHOULD and SHOULDN'T have full armor.

And that it doesn't carry, should not preclude it from doing so!

[Khobai]

Quote

The Awesome was (mainly) a Direct fire Support Mech, Victors were a get in your face punch holes in you street fighting beast. So I disagree on which Mech SHOULD and SHOULDN'T have full armor.

No the Awesome is a vanguard mech.
"Rugged and reliable, the Awesome is traditionally used in a vanguard role when penetrating enemy defenses."

Canon Awesomes have 15 tons of armor to back that up.


The Victor is a support mech.
"The Victor was built in 2508 under contract to the Terran Hegemony as a support Mech with jump capabilities."

Canon Victors have 8.5-11.5 tons of armor. Clearly indicating its not a frontline assault.



You can argue it all you want but the fact remains the Awesome should have more armor than the Victor and the Victor should not completely supplant the role of the Awesome in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[ice trey]

I don't want Mechwarrior Online to go belly up, I know that if it does, it's unlikely we'll ever see a new Mechwarrior game ever again. We'll end up in that 12-year-limbo again where the only new Mechwarrior content was done by a bunch of people who knew how to program but never bothered to find out about Battletech.

On the other hand, I have supported them far more than enough. Full Founders, Phoenix with all the works, and more than a few spurts of $100 MC purchases... I am tired of Community Warfare and the prospect of deep gameplay and teamwork being dangled in front of our faces like the proverbial carrot on a stick.

I'm hoping that by not paying, but have the means to pay, and WILL pay again when I have something similar to a single player experience where I'm fighting for more reason that bragging rights and whether or not I have a high rank on a leaderboard, PGI will light a fire under their butts to finally do something with the game other than release more and more mechs and meta tweaks. To me that means Community Warfare, but any solution that makes me feel like I'm playing with any sort of goal other than "Level up" would be pretty damned nice.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

No the Awesome is a vanguard mech.
"Rugged and reliable, the Awesome is traditionally used in a vanguard role when penetrating enemy defenses."

The Victor is a support mech.
"The Victor was built in 2508 under contract to the Terran Hegemony as a support Mech with jump capabilities."

Thank you for the reminder!
However, Support Mechs can't have full armor?

[Khobai]

Quote

However, Support Mechs can't have full armor?

They can. I believe the Catapult has full armor as an example. But allowing the Jagermech to also have full armor makes it better than the Catapult. Which is wrong since one of the defining traits of the Jagermech is paper thin armor.

Same in the case of the Victor and Awesome. Allowing the Victor to have full armor strips the Awesome of its main advantage over the Victor, which is way more armor.

Max armor values should be based on the stock variants rather than the tonnage. A jagermech should have a lower max armor value than a catapult. And a victor should have a lower max armor value than an awesome. It would differentiate chassis a lot more and force players to make tougher choices when choosing mechs. Do you go with the better mobility of the victor or the better armor of the awesome? Do you go with the better armor of the catapult or the better firepower of the jagermech? Suddenly its not so clear cut what the best mechs are.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

They can. I believe the Catapult has full armor as an example. But allowing the Jagermech to also have full armor makes it better than the Catapult. Which is wrong since one of the defining traits of the Jagermech is paper thin armor.

Same in the case of the Victor and Awesome. Allowing the Victor to have full armor strips the Awesome of its main advantage over the Victor, which is way more armor.

As for direct fire it should be better than a Pult! Stupidity was that paper thin armor trait. It was the defining reason NO players ever took the Mech at my table! With the exception of ONE Davion player who fixed the armor!

Also Catapults are primarily Kurita and Liao Heavies and Jagers Davion. I understand why you suggest this "fix" but I disagree with it.

[Lostdragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

I am so tickled to hear you guys say this stuff. I thought I was the only one that realized certain setups will ALWAYS have an advantage, no matter what balance changes they do.

It is true that there will pretty much always be something that is the best, however, the problem with MWO is that the best mechs are orders of magnitude better than the worst mechs. There is such a huge difference between playing a Locust or Commando and a Firestarter or Jenner that it is like playing a completely different game.

When the Locust came out I said playing the energy variant was like playing a JR7-F on hard mode. For a couple of weeks to a month I saw a lot of Locusts as people leveled them up. Now they are extremely rare and when I do see one I get excited because I think "Free kill!!!!" If you care about winning there is literally no reason to play the Locust. You are much better off in any other light chassis.

To me, a well balanced game does not mean that everything is equal in every situation. What I want to see in game balance are viable options and choices. If the best mech/weapon/variant/whatever is only marginally better than the worst then I consider that balanced. That is what leads to diversity and keeps people interested.

As it stands now there are clear winners and losers when it comes to mechs, variants, weapons, etc. There are a number of reasons for this but they all boil down to design decisions PGI made about how the game will work. Quite frankly they pushed the game out before it was ready. The game got released (I consider what PGI called Open Beta the release at this point) before many of the systems we have now were in place. A lot of the design had not been fleshed out.

The result of this is we have a cobbled together mess. If PGI had waited until HSR, ECM, unclimbable terrain, knockdown, etc. were all ready before releasing the game it would have been much easier to balance. As it is they started balancing before they implemented major systems and they have been stuck in a cycle of trying to rebalance around the new things they are adding. This has taken focus away from the things they should have been working on like CW.

Two prime examples of this are PPCs and ECM. Prior to HSR it was really difficult to hit anything with PPCs, so they got buffs to heat and projectile speed. At that time FLD was barely a blip on PGI's radar because it was not viable due to the mechanics needed to make it work not being in the game. Since then they have had to nerf PPCs multiple times to bring them back in line because HSR combined with the previous buffs they got made them way more powerful than they should be.

When ECM was added to the game the only way to counter it was with another ECM. Since then PGI has introduced multiple ways to counter ECM (BAP, UAV, PPC disruption) but it still remains incredibly powerful because the base mechanics of ECM itself have not changed. BAP vs ECM is a terrible deal for the mech that needs to equip BAP, it is not nearly as good as ECM.

At some point after clans are out PGI is going to have to rip off the duct tape. That probably means everything is going to fall apart for a while but that will pretty much be a necessity to resolve the ongoing balance issues with the game. The biggest concern at this point is will the player base stick around long enough for that to happen, and when it does happen will they be understanding enough to give PGI some latitude to fix things? Unfortunately, PGI has burned through a lot of goodwill and run off a lot of players. Only time will tell if MWO will ever become the game outlined in the original vision, but right now I don't think it is looking good.

[Khobai]

Quote

As for direct fire it should be better than a Pult!

It is better than the Catapult at direct fire. Just not better at taking hits. Jagermechs are proverbial glass cannons. Their firepower comes at the expense of armor.

Allowing a Jagermech to have full armor in MWO is a complete affront to battletech. Its offensive to me to see that. Jagermechs should not be frontline heavies and the easiest way to fix that is to lower their max armor. Around 8.5-9 tons of armor is the most a Jagermech should be allowed to have. Which i think is reasonable considering they only have 6.5 tons of armor in canon.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

It is better than the Catapult at direct fire. Just not better at taking hits. Jagermechs are proverbial glass cannons. Their firepower comes at the expense of armor.

But as I found out thanks to Heavy Metal, One could have sacrificed some speed for the same result. The weapons were mainly Long range so speed was not a true requirement.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But as I found out thanks to Heavy Metal, One could have sacrificed some speed for the same result. The weapons were mainly Long range so speed was not a true requirement.

3 tons of ammo for four autocannons isnt gonna cut it in MWO though. To make that build viable you would have to strip armor to add more ammo.

[Barantor]

Jagermech:
Designed as an anti-aircraft platform and long-range fire support unit, the JagerMech was intended to correct several perceived faults of the original Rifleman.


Rifleman:
The definitive anti-aircraft Mech, the Riflemanwas first fielded in 2505, making it among the first 'Mechs ever built. Its combination of long-ranged weaponry, including rapid-fire autocannons, and its excellent Garret D2j targeting and tracking system ensured it would remain a viable battlefield unit through half a millennium of combat. When pressed into combat against ground units, the Rifleman is merely adequate, suffering from light armor protection, poor heat management, and limited ammunition supply. It is particularly noted for its thin rear armor, a weakness for which its ability to reverse its arms only partly compensates. The Rifleman is far more successful when used as a fire-support 'Mech, and five centuries of combat have provided many triumphant examples of its employment in this role.


It is fire support and anti-aircraft. It is the equivalent of a Ontos mixed with a Wirbelwind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Ontos

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Wirbelwind

Minimal armor is one of it's weaknesses, just like the Awesome's big weakness is when anything gets too close for the 90m minimum on the PPCs. Catapult's weakness is a lot of it's tonnage is wrapped up in LRMs and those mediums tend to make it run very hot when pressed.

The problem I've felt with MWO is that the chassis's role in BT doesn't matter a lick, even though they are using the model of BT to get the design of the mechs. This is a problem when you can alter the mech to the point where the hardpoint locations and types are more important than the mech design. Right now anything with high mounted hardpoints, ballistic hardpoints and jumpjets is superior than many of the other chassis.

I would rather have reduced mechlab ability and have to work hard at getting the chassis' weaknesses minimized through skill trees and quirk upgrades than what we currently have. My opinion of course and I'm sure a ton of folks hate the idea of reduced customization even though I feel it is a deterrent to the game.

Edited by Barantor, 04 June 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Barantor]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

3 tons of ammo for four autocannons isnt gonna cut it in MWO though. To make that build viable you would have to strip armor to add more ammo.

3 tons is only a problem when you can pay for endo and then boost your armor to max on every mech in the game. 3 tons has a hard time with a bad shooter against max/nearly max on every mech.