19 replies to this topic

[Celem]

Hey there folks, I've hit a bit of a wall and was looking for some advice from the forum denizens.

I recently switched mech class for the first time, and i'm having a lot of trouble adapting to a new playstyle.

Started playing MWO about a month ago, was a TT and Mux player a long time ago. Now in the past I was always a Heavy pilot, ran CRD-3k Crusaders on the various muxes. Arriving here however I kinda fell in love with the FS9-S trial and bought myself one (not a champion). All well and good, I suck for a while as expected, eventually start reaching the point where i'm still not killing but doing my part enough that i'm being properly paid so it seems i'm pulling my weight.

Decided Firestarters were cool so bought an -A and fully basic'd that too as an 8ml boat. Few more kills here but my historic inability to manage heat (i blew so many CRDs on alpha you would not believe) has followed me here and the ml boat tends to shutdown in nasty spots. Being ever so thankful that you dont just go critical straight up in MWO I decide to grab a third FS and go for elites to help handle heat (x2 basics). Splashed for an -E Ember for the third, so much fun, finally a mech that kills too.

So fast-forward. Feeling established as a light pilot, the -A and -E are both fully elite and awesome fun to pilot, topped a few damage charts in both and both are recovering their KDRs from the horror my early runs left them in. Then one day im kinda drunk, in the Ember and ran into a lance of Shadow Hawks. 2H, 2D2, 2x5M. Ends instantly and exactly as you would expect, and in a haze of alcohol fumes I seem to have made my way to the store and bought a 2H.

How in blue blazes do I drive this thing?

The fit I can probably figure, I dont want to stack so much AC that its a little jäger, thinking maybe an ac/5 and ssrms... But I just cant seem to figure out where I should be on the batlefield, I keep getting hammered really early game for being out of position.

Sometimes I forget myself and treat it like the Ember, I havent fit ssrms yet, just regular srm and have no efficiencies so cant handle lights. So I stomp along behind the brawlers, works ok, few shots from the AC on approach over hilltops, then we close and i'm instantly shredded by hvy/assaults.

Where is the med shadow hawk meant to be? Should I try and be 2nd line? Unfortunately shadow hawks seem to attract a lot of hate and the other pilots i see in them are good enough (and upgraded enough) to play some kind of hvy striker role which is just getting me killed.

Celem
Lost and Confused

Edited by Celem, 04 June 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Appogee]

The 2H is a great Mech.

Generally: hang with the heavies/assaults, shoot what they're shooting at.

I take a bigger than fashionable engine and 2 Jump Jets so that I don't get caught out of position.

2AC5+PPC is the meta build, but I've also had success with 3AC2, or 2AC2+ERPPC. There are many options.

Edited by Appogee, 04 June 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[xMintaka]

Picking a mech based on those that scare you in your usual role is, imho, one of the best ways to go about deciding which chassis to buy next.

You could load up the SHD-2H with Machine Guns and SRM's coupled with a huge XL and chase lights away from your bigger buddies, but this can lead to getting caught up in the chase and obliterated. Plus the muzzle flash from the MG's limits already poor visibility.

The only SHD's I play with any regularity are, unfortunately, meta. The -5M/-2H poptart and the -2D2 AC20 + ERPPC so I'm probably not the best person for tactical advice so take the following with a hefty pinch of salt.


You have excellent hit boxes which roll damage very well. This means you can brawl even with an XL engine, but you really need to have assault or heavy support. You would be well served to have a decent long range weapon (AC5, in your example) to keep busy at the start of the match and not get impatient.

What engine are you running in it? The new champ mech is a pretty good build for what it does, but the engine is woefully small. For anything other than poptarting I wouldn't suggest dropping below 275/280 rated engines and actually recommend being closer to an XL300.

With a slightly larger engine you have the mobility and speed to be an effective flanker, but again this needs a decent team and impeccable timing to not get focus fired into next week.


You're correct in that they attract a lot of hate. This is because, by now, everyone knows how dangerous they can be in a skilled players hands. Better to stomp a Shawk than let it close in case the pilot knows what they're doing. This is likely to change with the champ variant in the mix, as more newbies will no doubt gravitate towards that but that's a little way off yet.
(not that I'm implying you don't know what you're doing, btw)


Your best bet would be to play it like a slow, fat Firestarter. You want the enemy to be already busy with someone else by the time they notice you. Use the Shawk as a force multiplier and you'll go very far with it.

Just a quick build that would work pretty damn well as a second line brawler or flanker, could even drop the MLas and armour on that arm to upgrade to an AC10 if you don't mind being completely ammo dependent.

[Phlinger]

Try watching this video.




While that is not the only tactic, for solo dropping it works well for mediums and with some heavies also. You don't even have to speak the other person, just pay attention. After awhile, it becomes more second nature than anything. Sometimes in drops I find myself being the leader, but I also know what the guys hanging with me are doing and why they are doing it.

After watching the video, decide how you want to support and then focus on it. After that, decide which mech supports the loadout that you think is best or want to try. Or take one of your mechs out for a few runs, if you die early, bounce around and see what the other medium guys are piloting and what load outs they have. Always judge their builds with an "If this were mine, how would I rebuild it?" attitude.

Edited by Ronyn, 04 June 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Celem]

Its still running it's standard 275 while I sorted out money for endo and dhs which are now finally done.

I have an xl 295 I could pull from the ember, otherwise not much choice. So i'll see what can be done with that.

Got the torso efficiencies and feeling a little happier, locked the arms and dropped ml for tag.

Edited by Celem, 04 June 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Celem, on 04 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

OP

I love my 2H A LOT. The build I nejoyed the most was the 2xAC2, where I just sit there at long range, and suppress the hell out of everything that moves. The stream from three AC2s on chain fire can convince the most ardent of chargers that it might be a bad idea.

Another build you can do on all shadowhawks, but the 2K, 1xGauss+1xERPPC. Solid build, performs extremely well. throw in Adv. Zoom, and Target Info Gather+Sesmic Sensor, and you are golden, and good to go.


Another build that I enjoyed was LBX10+ERLL, and SRMs. It's a great can opener set up.

[Phlinger]

Celem, on 04 June 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Its still running it's standard 275 while I sorted out money for endo and dhs which are now finally done.

I have an xl 295 I could pull from the ember, otherwise not much choice. So i'll see what can be done with that.

Got the torso efficiencies and feeling a little happier, locked the arms and dropped ml for tag.

The best mileage I have gotten out of my 2H is a really easy build. I keep it this way for quick drops.

Standard 280 engine
3MG's 2 tons ammo
ERPPC
3 SSRM's with 2 tons ammo
2 JJ's

Until you get used to the running with more than a few weapon groups, link the SSRM's and MG's together. then after a bit set up the Streaks to chain fire on a third weapon group and then a Streak only alpha. 4 weapon groups, but works well and most lights don't like messing with me unless they have buddies.

With Speed tweak it runs at 90kph and you don't have to worry about losing a torso as much as with an XL and you still have the PPC to deal damage when closing or ducking behind cover until the real brawl begins. Heat is rarely an issue as well, just don't mash the ERPPC to much or unless you know the shot will land.

Another fun build

Whichever XL you have, 295XL you already have will work, I use a 315xl
3 SRM's, I use 4's, with a lighter engine you can use a few 6's and a 4
3MG's
1 LPL
2-3 JJ's

Stay back hanging out with an assault or a heavy and when someone gets in range, unleash SRM hell on your target, followed by spamming the MG"s on weak spots in their armor and use the LPL as a can opener. If you see they have red armor on their torso after you SRM them, open it up with the laser and then MG them till they drop, further SRM's help expedite the process.

[Celem]

Alright then cheers guys.

Ronyn, video summed it up perfectly, I needed to know where to be and he told me where to stand and what to look for.

Started bodyguarding random assaults and noticed an immediate improvement as they pull fire even off the hated SHawk. Being alone seems to identify me as one of those SHawk pilots who is a threat because they know how to pilot their mech, which I still dont, plus it's slow and undergunned till I finish fitting it. On the shoulder of an assault however i'm happy as a pig in muck and suddenly living to the end of rounds/exhausting ammo... all good signs.

The torso twist efficiencies were a major deal too I must say, just like the heat ones were for the FS's.

Fitwise i'm going to leave the gauss for now as i lack adv zoom, the only module available is extended sensor range. Lrm I discarded already as a sub-optimal chassis for the job. Will have to play around with the arm energy slot a bit for those suggestions with laser firepower, I have a tendancy to hit cover with it when peeking out and forgetting which arm carries the weapon

The various MG suggestions were a lightbulb too since it's one of the few weapons I already know and are great beside the srm's.

Put in my xl 295 and doing some further testing, means a lot heavier SRM compliment and it's starting to get nicely scrappy up-close.

In general I play close-range because of my ping. As a rule I have the worst ping across both teams in a given drop unless there are aussies so instant point-damage and full sniping are probably not my friends. I also try and stick to 3 weapon groups for now as I have a 3-button mouse and my performance suffers if i use keyboard groups, will have to practice.

Edited by Celem, 04 June 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[dragnier1]

The 2H can play a variety of roles. I've tried erppc+ac5, 3x ac2, 3lrms+laser (i think 2 lrm10+lrm5) and lpl+3mg+3ssrm (bap).
Currently i've changed the lpl for erppc. Usually i outfit my mechs by deciding how i want to engage others (plus range). Ssrms really help against lights if you have high ping.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

I had mine as XL275, LL, AC5, 2SRM4, SRM6. Worked really well, but it didn't begin to properly shine until I had those basic efficiencies. The terrible visibility means you really need those torso skills to be most effective.

The 2D2 I ran with 2ML, AC2, SRM4, 3SRM6, XL300. You trip Ghost Heat, but not very much, and you can plink away with the AC2 while you cool down.

The 5M I hated and do not recall... Although I do remember basing the build around an AC10.

I just bought a 2D and run it with an XL275 (nicked it out of my 2H actually), 3ML, AC5, SRM4, 2SRM6. Blazing through the basics right now, and until last night had a whopping 5+ KDR with it. It's hovering around half that right now.

When I bought the Storm tier Phoenix pack, I remember being very worried about the Shaqhawk, especially since it has similar dimensions to the Awesome. Never had I been so wrong.

[Mechteric]

Tactics aside, the 2H is IMO the worst of the SHD bunch unfortunately. Why is that? Well...

- 3 ballistics is unnecessary in a medium, because 3 AC2's isn't that good, and machine guns are not worthwhile either. 2 is plenty, since 2xAC5 is so good.
- 1 of the 3 missiles is in the head, so you are limited to certain weapons, mostly streaks, but there's another SHD which can mount 4 so its not as good here either.
- Only 1 energy mount. The others have more.

But at least you know which one to sell after you've finished its basics/elites!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 05 June 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Koniving]

Celem, on 04 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Few more kills here but my historic inability to manage heat (i blew so many CRDs on alpha you would not believe) has followed me here and the ml boat tends to shutdown in nasty spots.

I'm sure you learned this already, but there's something called heat scale punishing you for firing 8 ML at once. 6 is the safe number. Perhaps try 4 ML and 4 SPL? Pulse lasers are quite effective and they recently had their ranges buffed.

Celem, on 04 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

...bought a Shadowhawk 2H.

How in blue blazes do I drive this thing?

Recall the Shadowhawk's tabletop role. It wasn't so much a striker but a recon mech with decent firepower.

On MWO it also can do max armor so until PGI gets smart about this (as it's completely alienating mechs whose only redeeming quality was incredible armor values and mechs whose stock armor values are pretty low are becoming meta because they can go max armor with fantastic hardpoints, speed, etc), do your best to abuse it.

In the meantime it has become a brawling mech so to speak. You can use it at range and that is ideal in your situation. If getting close isn't working out, try the Gauss Rifle. It has 3x the stated range, making it the longest range weapon in the game, you can hit and somewhat effectively damage even LRM boats while standing outside of their range. Definitely have some streaks to back it up though so you're not screwed.

Personally I use either streaks, LRMs (both sometimes) and pack on an AC/5 or two. I'm also one to pack on an LB-10x and an AC/5 when possible (but the Shadowhawk can't really take that weight so I substitute with an AC/2). I find the shotgun to be a good way to make up for the mech's shortcomings.

Try different things, figure out what you like. For its single laser slot, I've seen some pack on an ER Large. I personally prefer a pulse laser; they're greatly effective against lights. Armlock needs to be off though, the Shadowhawk's twist is too limited and its twist speed is subpar compared to my fantastic Hunchbacks. You can jump-turn but you're asking for a world of hurt there as they focus your legs.

This is a Sniper's rig. Gauss Rifles require a charge up, so hold the fire button for it and then release when the indicator is green. The streaks are just for emergencies so not much ammunition is dedicated. You can trade a ton of Gauss for streak ammo if needed. Remember this is not a front line design, and if you "follow the big guy" as depicted on the video someone posted above, you'll do just fine. Just be sure to follow the big guy from farther behind than most.

Edited by Koniving, 05 June 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

my advice is if you can afford it try a variety of builds do so to see what you enjoy/are good with

I have had some success with brawler builds like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5f4fd3684fc4596

At the start of the match stay with the Assaults and use the LL to shoot what they are shooting at, if you see an isolated Mech get to a range of 100-200m and hit it with the LL and SRMs, when you see exposed internals open up with the MGs, when it dies repeat, just remember this Mech is larger and slower than the Firestarter, so less likely to be able to escape a bad situation e.g. if an enemy has friends you failed to notice.

If you prefer you could fit an ERLL instead of the LL, or by downgrading the SRM6s to SRM4s you could change the laser to an LPL or (ER)PPC, do not be afraid to experiment (provided you have the cbills)

[mailin]

My Shadowhawks are all light hunters. To that end, all are built around streaks with almost the biggest XL engines I can get in there. They all go about 113 khp with the speed tweak. One of the beautiful things about the Shadowhawks is their versatility.

Also, even with the XLs because of the jump jets they can take a crazy amount of damage.

[Macksheen]

First thing first ... I find that it takes me a few matches to get used to a chassis before I start to roll with it. You're still early, and your first few chassis are all going to feel like you're doing poorly. At some point, things will click and you'll wonder if this particular mech is just better than what you used to pilot ... it isn't, you've just gotten better. Don't sweat it.

Second, take a gander at mechspecs.com and look at some of the SHD builds, both for your model and for others. Lots of fun / good ideas out there - don't be shy. And don't feel like the build is bad if you have a handful of bad runs.

Personally, I like the 3xAC2 because sometimes I want more dakka, and that gives good dakka. If that doesn't work for you, the 2 AC5, 1 PPC certainly works - and works well enough. Yeah, you can do it on a 5M, but you can do it on a 2H as well if you like that feel. Bonus is, if you like it on the 2H you can level it up, then strip the mech and build out a 5M and level it next. It'll play the same, and you'll have a leg-up on getting used to the playstyle.

[Celem]

Koniving, on 05 June 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'm sure you learned this already, but there's something called heat scale punishing you for firing 8 ML at once. 6 is the safe number. Perhaps try 4 ML and 4 SPL? Pulse lasers are quite effective and they recently had their ranges buffed.

Yeah, was a while, but I eventually found that 'mechanic' documented somewhere. Am I right in thinking that if say its an 8ml boat, you can do 4 and 4 split by half a second to get an 'alpha'? I suspect I twitch a bit much sometimes and click both buttons as a habit generated by the Ember's MGs. Either way, the FS9-A 8xML is another build that really really craves elites. Once I had those (x2 basics) its a nasty little striker anywhere but the caldera, without them its an overheat waiting to happen, even in snow.

The Hawk is more of a friend to me now, rotated a number of builds through it as suggested by the kind folks here. Somewhat predictably I have the most success when I go the most meta and I did much of the grind with a ppc/ac spam. Getting to grips now with point-damage as opposed to hitscans I just bought my first Gauss rifle, im sure many wonderful torso explosions await. Im also taking the opportunity to learn to poptart properly since im low enough in ELO that its not a particularly widely seen tactic and doesnt get me smacked/focused.

Also, still using regular srm's heavily and havent switched over to streaks, theres a lot of ecm lights on my part of the battlefield I feel, would have to find room for a BAP if I wanted to streak it as I spend upto 50% of my time scrapping without a lock. Thankfully I've been pretty successful at using the SRM shotgun to splat passing lights, the fire from those plus a bit of shake from ac 2/5s and the ubiquitous MG-hose is proving enough to befuddle most scout pilots down my end of the skill-chain. Worst nightmare is still an Ember in my blindspot, but to be expected as the SHD is also high on an Ember's threat-list and the FS9-E is generally terrifying to anything in skilled hands.. These two just cant help but slaughter each other.

@CapperDeluxe agreed with you on the triple ballistic hardpoint. I struggle to fit that shoulder properly (heavily) without dropping the missiles entirely or similar. While MGs are useful to pad spare slots there once you dont have space for more AC I get much the same milage by just leaving the slot open and hauling extra ac ammo or a BAP for that weight. My 2H left shoulder is tending towards just 1xAC5 to partner the ppc in the arm and leave room for a packet of SRM opposite.

Also revisiting LRMs on this chassis, wrote it off as a boat earlier but they synch well with some of the longer-range builds being suggested and I may as well learn that weapon system now as later.

Just half a mil short for the next chassis, probably 2D next.

Edited by Celem, 05 June 2014 - 06:22 PM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

It helps that Streaks are lighter than the larger SRM launchers, so swapping an SRM6 for an SSRM2 gives you the tonnage for a BAP out of the gates. Once you switch over, weight shouldn't be too much of an issue, and you should have some spare room left over for heatsinks to further improve your stamina.

[plodder]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

I love my 2H A LOT. The build I nejoyed the most was the 2xAC2, where I just sit there at long range, and suppress the hell out of everything that moves. The stream from three AC2s on chain fire can convince the most ardent of chargers that it might be a bad idea.

Just a note....
Someone told me,"The firing rate on an ac 2 is not increased on chainfire, but the heat is less." Meaning: One ac 2 continuously firing, is the same as 3 ac 2's firing in chainfire, except for heat management. True? I don't know.
Also, I love ac 2 suppression fire at range, sooo much fun!

[n r g]

xl285 and 2ac5 and 1erppc and you can thank us later for the damage you start putting up.

[BarHaid]

I have found that an AC/10 is much more usefull on my Shawks than multiple lower ACs. The 2H is my worst performer because I kept trying to use all three ballistic slots. The slower firing rate of the AC/10 forces me to twist between shots more, and so I roll the incoming damage better. With three AC/2s I wanted to always face the enemy, and thus got cored fast. An AC/10, two medium lasers, and SRMs or LRMs depending on your preference, and you will keep a comfortable W/L and K/D ratio.