39 replies to this topic

[Bhelogan]

Tereva, on 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

And best of all, all this, with a mech with 0 efficiency unlocked.

If your playing the trial mech, basics are unlocked for you. But still, it's a decent chassis. I never tried them until the Arrow came out (I love MGs, so I couldn't pass). It's not as good as my trusty SDH, but they are fun.

[Mecheart]

I am another pilot who has tried all the other medium chassis save for the Black Jack--which never appeared too interesting. Recently made an alt account to experiment with some of the new trial mechs, and discovered that the trial BJ is quite enjoyable--and effective. For some reason, this mech seems particularly suited to killing lights--specifically Ravens. While running the champion BJ over approximately fifteen matches, I've destroyed at least five Raven 3Ls. It also seems to excel at Atlas bodyguard duties, so long as one does not try to brawl; obviously the BJ comes apart easily under most any level of direct fire. Nevertheless, the highly mobile AC/20 is one heck of a lot of fun. Remain unsure whether or not I'll add Black Jacks to my hangars, but it's a possibility.

[Koniving]

Tereva, on 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Trial Blackjack

Quite simply the Trial Blackjack is a 45 ton version of the Hunchback 4G, without the large hunch because the Blackjack's AC/20 is the same size as it's AC/2 (in other words bad art scale and/or mechanics involved here).

Comparison of AC/2 and AC/20

Spoiler

When the Blackjack walks, similar to the Trebuchet, it 'jolts' up and down, making it very easy to 'scrape' or 'graze' lasers and spread the damage to either multiple spots or to make them miss and hit in a single step. Killing one requires either focused aim (while stationary or nearly so), a stationary Blackjack target, or autocannons and SRMs.

Good news is if what they say about Clan ER lasers is true, then a Blackjack might easily survive lots of Clan laser fire too despite likely higher laser damages.

That said, a Blackjack isn't invincible. In a 35 ton brawler I took out an AC/20 Blackjack with quite a bit of ease. Video time skipped to just before the fight.

A smidgeon of lore...

Spoiler

A Blackjack (45 ton anti-insurgent mech to be supported by infantry, jeeps and APCs) at pure stock has the same armor as a Centurion (50 ton) CN9-A, CN9-AH, Yen Lo Wang (true to lore with hatchet; not MWO's version) and CN9-D. It has greatly superior armor to most Shadowhawks (pure stock), and in armor the Blackjack puts every Jagermech to shame.

The Jagermech armors in MWO are 192 to 256. Blackjack is 272. (They're actually Jager 96 to 128 and the Blackjack is actually 136 in tabletop/lore). However, a Jagermech is an anti-aircraft mech and the Blackjack is an anti-terrorist/infantry mech.

The AC/2s (which fire 10 rounds per squeeze to get '2 damage') are used to destroy concrete barricades, shoot into buildings to effectively take out enemies, fry light vehicles, etc. The rounds explode on contact and are described as similar to the anti-personnel rounds used in Battlefield by the LAVs. In the source material though, AC/2s are about as worthless as machine guns against battlemechs and tanks (a small laser does better damage). This is the Blackjack resorts to its significantly superior lasers. The Blackjack's AC/2 is 30mm and fires sabot rounds, the mech machine gun is 20mm and fires bullets. Large bullets, but bullets nonetheless down a rifled barrel or series of barrels. The AC/2 has 45 loads of 10 shots each per ton (450 rounds) and the Blackjack only has one ton of this ammunition to feed both guns. A machine gun in comparison could be anywhere from 500 to 1,000 rounds per box and has 200 boxes per ton of ammunition.

For comparison the Jagermech's AC/2 fires 8 shots to get 2 damage (40mm) and thus per ton it has 360 rounds per ton -- they also do 0.25 damage per shot instead of 0.2. That's in Temptation by War. However, a different Jagermech built to stock in another book with a Mydron Model D AC/2 is 30mm and is similar to the Blackjack's Whirlwind-L AC/2. However instead of belt fed (automatic but slower firing) it is controlled burst (faster, but it spits up 5 of the 10 rounds per squeeze, dumping a full magazine in two squeezes and having to 'reload', ticking from 45 magazines to 44 magazines from a ton of ammo in just 2 trigger pulls). The Jager's AC/5 (80mm) (0.5 damage per shot) fires 10 shots to get its 5 damage per unit, with 20 'units' per ton that comes out to 200 shots.

For fun, MG versus UAC/5.

Spoiler

(Edit: Subtle corrections from lack of coffee. Mostly spelling mistakes)

Edited by Koniving, 06 June 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Mott]

Kon.... i love your posts... and your daily contributions to these forums and this community.

But man... sometimes i worry about you. lol

So.Much.Detail.

[Ballimbo]

Mecheart, on 06 June 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

[...] For some reason, this mech seems particularly suited to killing lights--specifically Ravens. While running the champion BJ over approximately fifteen matches, I've destroyed at least five Raven 3Ls. [...]

There are 5 reasons for this in my opinion:

• BJ's aren't the biggest mechs, bigger as all the lights yes, but by a significant smaller amount than for example the assault mechs. Because of this, you don't have much trouble to target the lights out of a BJ's cockpit - they are near your "level" of aiming or "horizon". Especially a Raven. Not when they're point blank, but in an typical distance of let's say 200m or so, you only have to slightly adjust your crosshair to target them - much easier to target them than let's say in a Thunderbolt (as I own BJ's and T-Bolts, hence the comparison ). And BJ's are WYSIWYWH™ (what you see is what you will hit) with the arms on cockpit level.
  
• BJ's have good torso pitch degrees. So you can always shoot any light hugging your knee with all weapons you got - they are actually doing you a favor when they hug. Nice, slow moving targets up front your cockpit-glass to cherry pick your shots (at heads or legs for example).
  
• BJ's have a good torso twist speed and NO lateral arm movment. Yes, it is a advantage in my opinion. Because that's like as if you had armlock on (only horizontally) - but without the slower torso movement. Your weapons are always converged (does this word exists like this?) when twisting your torso, and with the fast twist speed you manage to lay that crosshair almost always on the light, which tries to circle you. (or does evasive maneuvers).
  
• If you run a high front loaded weapon like the AC/20, all the points above are devastating for light mechs. If you hit a Heavy or Assault with the AC/20 you surely do damage, but you haven't crippled it in one shot. On lights you often do. A AC/20 shot rips their armor apart and some med lasers right after (because you can keep your crosshair on them as by 1 and 3 above) do the rest. If necessary, the next AC/20 (4 secs.) will toast them. Many times I a shot a leg off a light in the first AC/20 hit (probably already damaged, but that often is the case).
  
• Just as most heavier opponents ignore the BJ's, many lights think that a BJ is an easy prey. They don't behave with the usual caution as they do with bigger mechs, but give up all prudence and engage you heads up, and doing this almost every time alone - they don't wait for their teammates. Coming even really close to you, probably thinking they can do their little circling thing. Sneaky little lightses. Well, then they learn about the points 1 - 4 above.

As I perceived it, I must have wrecked twice or three times as many lights as other mechs with my BJ's. Would love to have the stats on this

Edited by Ballimbo, 06 June 2014 - 03:06 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Bhelogan, on 06 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

If your playing the trial mech, basics are unlocked for you.

I didn't know that, source please? (not doubting you - but I tend to need to read it myself to remember it)

[Koniving]

Mott, on 06 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

So.Much.Detail.

Truth be told I'm working on working out the information so that someday soon™ I can be part of a team to make a solid Battletech PC simulator (not game, simulator).

[1453 R]

The Blackjack is the smallest 'Mech, both in terms of tonnage and in terms of physical size, that can effectively (EFFECTIVELY) mount an AC/20. It can do so with an XL engine and attain speeds over 90kph, w/Tweak, and loads jump jets for extra mobility options. It's not as slow as a lot of folks make it out to be, it's one of the most thoroughly ignored chassis in the game, and it can carry twenty or thirty points of damage without any real trouble.

What's amazing is that people keep refusing to take it seriously. Sure, the 250STD AC/20 Shadow Hawk is more durable, but it's also got twice the bulk of the Blackjack and moves significantly slower. The Jack of Blacks is a quick, agile gun platform that excels in finding ways to attack its foes from places and at times its foes find incredibly inconvenient, with enough firepower to turn inconvenience into outright pain. It's a different sort of playstyle, a weird merger of the typical speedy striker with an ambush predator, but boy howdy does it feel great when it works, eh?

[luxebo]

Shar Wolf, on 06 June 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

I didn't know that, source please? (not doubting you - but I tend to need to read it myself to remember it)

I think he means that playing it basically allows you enough gxp to unlock basics, though I could be wrong.

BTW, @1453 R there's the Raven 4X/Huginn as well. That, Blackjack, and YLW are all light enough to effectively carry the AC20, and maybe the Cicada, though loss of JJ ability.

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 06 June 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I think he means that playing it basically allows you enough gxp to unlock basics, though I could be wrong.

You can use the (C) Trials to earn XP past Basic, I know that much, as I am using the Shadowhawk one to work on pushing mine up to the final few hundred XP of the Master level.

[1453 R]

I included the word 'effectively'. Nothing below the Blackjack can do it effectively, for a variety of reasons. Though it's nonetheless funny to see them do it anyways

[Ruccus]

I like the AC20 build but of all the mechs I own I think the BJ-1 (and now also the Arrow) has the most variety of viable builds. While not as good as they used to be I tried out the the dual AC2 and dual AC5 builds post nerf and found they can still put up good numbers, the dual PPC build works well, the dual ERLL build works well, the (AC10, LB10X, or Gauss Rifle) plus four medium lasers build works well, and there are other variant that can surprise you.

Koniving, on 06 June 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

That said, a Blackjack isn't invincible. In a 35 ton brawler I took out an AC/20 Blackjack with quite a bit of ease. Video time skipped to just before the fight.

Not that an Ember can't take out a Blackjack (AC20 version or otherwise), but part of an AC20 Blackjack's hidden deadliness is in its three accompanying medium lasers for a 35 point alpha, all cycling at 4 seconds. The Blackjack in your video had bit unusual build in that it had AMS and a machinegun and only a single medium laser, which probably proved to be the difference.

The Blackjack is definitely about being a glass cannon, so the more dps and/or alpha strike capabilities you can stuff into the chassis while still maintaining mobility, the deadlier you will be.

[Koniving]

I personally enjoy a twin Ultra 5 build on my Blackjacks. 180 is still faster than stock after speed tweak. There's enough ammo to keep it going the whole match, a small laser for backup, and enough jumpjets for mobility. If I could back them up with MGs instead, I'd throw out the small laser and jumpjets like trash in favor of them. MGs are awesome (been using them as backups to my Jager's Gauss Rifles and they are incredible).

[juxstapo]

Just to throw a bizarre subjective out there...

The first thing that appealed to me was the cockpit. This is actually a "thing" for me, if I don't like the aesthetics of a cokcpit, I can't really enjoy the mech. That right there almost ruined 'Landers for me. The Blackjacks, (while furgerly on the outside, I'm sorry to say ) look really nice inside.
Then, after some lackluster moonlighting with ac/2's and ac/5's, attempted the ac/20. Say, is anyone else ever been tempted to read them as "Ack Twenty" or "Ewe Ack Five"? No?
Well lets forget that question ever happened, k?

Not as fast, not as durable as other mediums, something something hitboxes something side torsi something, I dunno. Some folks feel it's got problems in places and such.
Somehow, though... it's magical.
First you're like
Then a quick, precise, Ack Twenty based kill later
and you're like
For the rest of the match you're [repeat]

after over a thousand matches you're

[Denolven]

Loved the Blackjack when AC2 was playable. Dropped it when AC2 became useless. Also it's dead as soon as a light mech approaches.
Now I kill Blackjacks with my Commando, do twice as much damage even whith having single heatsinks, survive MUCH longer and even help my team with ECM.

Really sad, because the BJ used to be my favorite non-Trebuchet mech
I have tried other builds, but none of them ever scratched the 300 damage mark, not even in perfect games (nobody shoots me, plenty of targets). Blackjack is dead for me.

In fact, all my AC2 mechs are dead, so once again I'm kicked down to the 100ish damage valley. And I'm absolutely sure that PGI will manage to kill the last of my mechs, and then it's goodbye MWO, because if I want to feel useless I can have that in RL any time, without fighting unintuitive UIs.

Edited by Denolven, 07 June 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[juxstapo]

mmm, salty

[Felicitatem Parco]

I had always been a Hunchback affectionado... but when I started playing Blackjacks, I started to love the little guys.

Gauss + 3 or 4 ML is both fun and effective since you can aim it higher/lower than a Hunch or Shadowhawk can.

6ML + 2 ERLL makes a 48pt alpha with no ghost heat, and a loadout that's effective at almost all ranges...

I'm running 3 AC/2 on my Arrow right now, and it's hilarious (most matches = 400+ dmg)

To be honest, I think I have a small obsession with these little buggers right now.

[Tereva]

Bhelogan, on 06 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

If your playing the trial mech, basics are unlocked for you.

Where did you see that ?
I do not think this is the case. Of course I might be wrong but you can feel it when a mech is slow to stop or to accelerate, and this is definitively the case for me with the trial BJ.

[Monolith]

Mott, on 06 June 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

If you like to go solo and dive headfirst into brawls at the start of the match... then about 80% 95% of MWO's mechs won't work for you because they're all quite fragile when caught alone.

Is there a mech that can get away with that? Because the majority of times, I've found that not to be the case...

[Scurry]

Monolith, on 07 June 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Is there a mech that can get away with that? Because the majority of times, I've found that not to be the case...

Lights often can. Spiders and Commandos usually.