34 replies to this topic

[Foxwalker]

Koniving, on 09 June 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

While I agree... if you were a member of the soldiers manning the base defense turret, would you aim for the strongest components? Would you intentionally shoot at the enemy in a way that will make sure you are killed?

I think the game's rewards for playing the objective -- which requires dealing with the turrets -- should pay.

Currently it does not.

Turret HP is 100 right now.

This is how easy it was to wipe out turrets with 150 hp.

But after it's done, what did I get for it? Nothing.

I'd get the same reward for running outside of the map, or for quitting the match immediately.

Except, the turrets have perfect aim, no matter how you twist or turn they unerringly go for that one point. The only way to fairly simulate say a human behind the weapon would be for the targeting to be a bit randomized. Same with the Missiles, they lock and seem to stay locked, as if they have advanced target decay on steroids.

I agree there should be a reward for killing turrets, but very small, otherwise teams would be running in to kill the turrets similar to old style games whey the cap counted more.

[Koniving]

Truth be told players have perfect aim too.

But you might be moving too slow. Faster mechs (120) don't have much trouble. You can also block that body part. I stand still, once it targets one leg I move that leg behind the other. Then shift it back around. Confuses the heck out of turrets.

You can also step back, let them put their attention on someone else, then attack again until they look at you again.

[Foxwalker]

I Zeratul I, on 09 June 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Turrets are extremely easy to take out with LRM boats.

Best bet -- ask LRM boats on your team to target them.

edit: I think LRM 50 will drop a LRM turrets health by 50%, if the turret is open.

Every missile hits. An LRM boat with two LRM 20 and one LRM 10 can finish a turret in 2 alphas.

Blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.

That makes the assumption that you have a missile boat at that point. Often games have ended this way. They have one or two guys hiding at their base, you have 1-3 guys attempting to assault. Usually you are all pretty beat up. I have had several games end in ties waiting for the clock to run out that way.

[Foxwalker]

Koniving, on 09 June 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Truth be told players have perfect aim too.

But you might be moving too slow. Faster mechs (120) don't have much trouble. You can also block that body part. I stand still, once it targets one leg I move that leg behind the other. Then shift it back around. Confuses the heck out of turrets.

You can also step back, let them put their attention on someone else, then attack again until they look at you again.

Sorry to argue this, but I have been twisting and turning in a Commando at 171, and still took damage as if I was not moving at all. I am reasonably good with the Commando, finishing games alive with 300-600 damage regularly.

Yeah there are a few people with "perfect aim" but not that many and I don't believe the turrets should have that much ability. After all they should be defensive not offensive. You can disagree with me it is cool. It is just an opinion after all.

[Livewyr]

My issue is that there are too many of them..

If there were 3 turrets, with 50 health each by each base.. I'd be content. (Just enough to keep a light from running in there unscathed and capping a base, but not rip apart heavy mechs that dare enter their range.)

[Reitrix]

Livewyr, on 09 June 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

My issue is that there are too many of them..

If there were 3 turrets, with 50 health each by each base.. I'd be content. (Just enough to keep a light from running in there unscathed and capping a base, but not rip apart heavy mechs that dare enter their range.)

Except... static base defenses should b a deterrent to a lone 'mech, no matter the size. Pretty sure if i was designing a base, i'd want some defense in there capable of turning back an Atlas.

[BOWMANGR]

Turrets need to go. There is no need for them at all. People were whining about a single light capping the base and forcing the enemy to return to base to defend it. Well, that IS THE POINT of a game mode. To have rules that make you play differently than the usual "kill everyone" mode.

But no, let's just hear the Call of Duty fanboys who want every shooter game they play to be the same killfest.

Assault used to be a game mode which needed Lights scouting to see if enemy lights were going for the base, needed Mediums to return and fend off those lights, required tactical position that allows mechs to attack but also defend the base as needed and created interesting situations of battlefield positioning and awareness. Now it's Skirmish with a way to end the game early if the last player remaining is hiding/disconnected.

Moreover, it makes some maps unbearable {River City - Assault may very well compete with Terra Therma - Anything as worst map to play a match on} and promotes stupid tactics.

For example, a team that loses retreats inside their base to get turret coverage. The LOGICAL thing to do based on the game's rules is for the team winning to just go back and wait it out. They are going to win this as they have more kills.

The ONLY reason that people don't do the logical thing is because it is really boring to wait it out, so the winning team is forced to do an assault to the enemy base to wipe out the last defenders even if they don't really have to do it. In fact the ones who should have to attack are the ones who are losing.
The winning team has to do something that doesn't make ANY sense gameplay simulation-wise simply because of 4th wall breaking reasons, namely reducing downtime and loss of C-Bills.
It DESTROYS any sense of immersion.

If anything the addition of turrets removed the lase game mode remaining where Battlefield roles WERE actually needed. They are trying to add battlefield roles as they say and they wreck the only game mode which HAD clear battlefield roles.

Turrets should be removed altogether or at least get reduced to just a nuisance for lights, a time sink of sorts to keep them occupied for a while so that the other team's FAST {and only those, not slow Heavies/Assaults} mechs have enough time to return and possibly defend their base. This will create role warfare AND remove troll light squads from capping the base during the first 3 minutes of a match.

Edited by BOWMANGR, 10 June 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[Redbackz]

Base turrets are just another reason to roll the OP ECM.

[KharnZor]

Come on now, pve isn't that hard.

[Lily from animove]

I like them, they prevent a single light from brainlessly running into the capture. Also they are still a threat to heavy damaged mechs.

but turrets could need some adjustments, in some bases, they are completely useless. like the top right one on Terra Therma, where you can easily force the turrets to shoot the ground instead of shooting your mech.

On the other side, removing the turrets would create a need of the players to defed their base, but that would turn out crappy. currently the team with a bigger number often wins, so basedefending with some guys and some trying to conquer the other base will work quite randomly nonsensical. Imagien terra therma, where the map is quite big and where many ways to go are.

When both teams defend, its endless waiting, When both teams go and do not meet each other its pointless.
If both teams leave and meet, its just a skirmish.
I don't think terra therma would make a good setup. Maybe both bases should then be closer to Mordor.

River City on the other hand is a well suited map for such a no turret Conquest.

Also those objectives need more rewards to motivate poeple going for them instead of just skirmishing.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 June 2014 - 02:00 AM.

[Reitrix]

BOWMANGR, on 10 June 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

Turrets need to go. There is no need for them at all. People were whining about a single light capping the base and forcing the enemy to return to base to defend it. Well, that IS THE POINT of a game mode. To have rules that make you play differently than the usual "kill everyone" mode.

But no, let's just hear the Call of Duty fanboys who want every shooter game they play to be the same killfest.

Assault used to be a game mode which needed Lights scouting to see if enemy lights were going for the base, needed Mediums to return and fend off those lights, required tactical position that allows mechs to attack but also defend the base as needed and created interesting situations of battlefield positioning and awareness. Now it's Skirmish with a way to end the game early if the last player remaining is hiding/disconnected.

Moreover, it makes some maps unbearable {River City - Assault may very well compete with Terra Therma - Anything as worst map to play a match on} and promotes stupid tactics.

For example, a team that loses retreats inside their base to get turret coverage. The LOGICAL thing to do based on the game's rules is for the team winning to just go back and wait it out. They are going to win this as they have more kills.

The ONLY reason that people don't do the logical thing is because it is really boring to wait it out, so the winning team is forced to do an assault to the enemy base to wipe out the last defenders even if they don't really have to do it. In fact the ones who should have to attack are the ones who are losing.
The winning team has to do something that doesn't make ANY sense gameplay simulation-wise simply because of 4th wall breaking reasons, namely reducing downtime and loss of C-Bills.
It DESTROYS any sense of immersion.

If anything the addition of turrets removed the lase game mode remaining where Battlefield roles WERE actually needed. They are trying to add battlefield roles as they say and they wreck the only game mode which HAD clear battlefield roles.

Turrets should be removed altogether or at least get reduced to just a nuisance for lights, a time sink of sorts to keep them occupied for a while so that the other team's FAST {and only those, not slow Heavies/Assaults} mechs have enough time to return and possibly defend their base. This will create role warfare AND remove troll light squads from capping the base during the first 3 minutes of a match.

Wait a minute ... the winning team is forced to assault the losing teams base ... in ASSAULT Mode? You realize that Assaulting the base is half the winning objectives ... right?

If we lost the Turrets, without 4x3, You could end up on a team where the highest top speed is 70, get halfway across Alpine to engage the enemy, then lose because its impossible to get a unit back to back base in time to defend it? Not only that but the attacker has the advantage over the defender, in his OWN FREAKING BASE. Move the lil red square for a fraction of a second and that light zips back in and caps you again. Repeat a couple times and game over.

No thanks, I'll keep the turrets, and the co-ordinated gameplay required to get through them.

[Ari Dian]

I see way more "base sitter" with these towers. A full Assault lance sitting in their base and using the towers as additional firepower.
I had a few matches now, where these tactic paid off. The "attacking" team was to much into having to win by kills, instead of time. And went into the base, just to get slaughtered. 8 damaged mechs against 4 undamaged assault plus the towers are to much.
Yes, base sitting is a valid tactic. But a stupid one. The only way to win is to wait outside of the base and wait for the time to tick down (unless you have enough mechs left from the earlier fights).

I am back to unselecting the assault mode, because these towers are (imo) to strong and to annoying. And its even worse on small maps. One step in the wrong direction, and you get the incoming missiles right at the start (not really, but you know what i mean).

[Reitrix]

Ari Dian, on 10 June 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

I see way more "base sitter" with these towers. A full Assault lance sitting in their base and using the towers as additional firepower.
I had a few matches now, where these tactic paid off. The "attacking" team was to much into having to win by kills, instead of time. And went into the base, just to get slaughtered. 8 damaged mechs against 4 undamaged assault plus the towers are to much.
Yes, base sitting is a valid tactic. But a stupid one. The only way to win is to wait outside of the base and wait for the time to tick down (unless you have enough mechs left from the earlier fights).

I am back to unselecting the assault mode, because these towers are (imo) to strong and to annoying. And its even worse on small maps. One step in the wrong direction, and you get the incoming missiles right at the start (not really, but you know what i mean).

So ... You lost to a guard force left in place specifically to ward off an attempt to cap the base. You didn't try to pick off the closer towers and co-ordinate getting closer to the Assaults ... You just rushed in with 8 near dead 'mechs?

Also, it's not a stupid tactic if the enemy falls for it.

[BOWMANGR]

Reitrix, on 10 June 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Wait a minute ... the winning team is forced to assault the losing teams base ... in ASSAULT Mode? You realize that Assaulting the base is half the winning objectives ... right?

If we lost the Turrets, without 4x3, You could end up on a team where the highest top speed is 70, get halfway across Alpine to engage the enemy, then lose because its impossible to get a unit back to back base in time to defend it? Not only that but the attacker has the advantage over the defender, in his OWN FREAKING BASE. Move the lil red square for a fraction of a second and that light zips back in and caps you again. Repeat a couple times and game over.

No thanks, I'll keep the turrets, and the co-ordinated gameplay required to get through them.

You fail to understand that the winning team is well...WINNING. They don't NEED to go and assault the base. They only do it to save time and because it's boring to wait it out NOT because they have to. This is the definition of broken. Turrets brake the game.

Either the turrets have to go or they should change Assault's game rules to something more meaningful.

[Livewyr]

BOWMANGR, on 11 June 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

You fail to understand that the winning team is well...WINNING. They don't NEED to go and assault the base. They only do it to save time and because it's boring to wait it out NOT because they have to. This is the definition of broken. Turrets brake the game.

Either the turrets have to go or they should change Assault's game rules to something more meaningful.

As a former member of the 4light base-troll squad.. (Those that win Assault games in 3 minutes or less by fast-capping) the Turret concept is needed. (Though I would've preferred morons learning to leave a defense, this is lesser evil.)

I think the turrets should have less health, or be active all the time, but the concept is needed.