9 replies to this topic

[Tonberry King]

I'm loading an LRM boat with as much ammo as possible, and since I needed to plug in an XL engine & expand the missile slots with artemis, some leftover ammo has to sit in the arms. Even if I crammed as much as I could into a torso, I'd still need some ammo sitting outside, since you can only put a CASE in the torso.

First Question: Which ammo will be expended first? What order does the ammo get used in? How soon after raining missiles (for example) will the ammo in my arms be depleted? How does the system of ammo deduction work?

Next Question: Even if you have spent all your ammo, can you still have an ammo explosion? Sounds stupid, but you never know when there's an imperfection in the system to look out for.

There's a total of 4 tons of LRM ammo sitting outside a safe area (I hope none of my enemies read this) which means 720 missiles exposed, and ready to explode. Smurfy's says 1.8 damage per missile, with 1 arm having a bad day that's 360 missiles blowing up causing 648 damage. Obviously the arms would go so my question is how much damage would be sustained to the torso from this explosion? Would it be instant death? It's a stalker, if it matters. Answer generally if you can, for reference in case people are inquiring a similar question regarding ballistics.

Edited by Tonberry King, 10 June 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[TercieI]

Tonberry King, on 10 June 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

I'm loading an LRM boat with as much ammo as possible, and since I needed to plug in an XL engine & expand the missile slots with artemis, some leftover ammo has to sit in the arms. Even if I crammed as much as I could into a torso, I'd still need some ammo sitting outside, since you can only put a CASE in the torso.

First Question: Which ammo will be expended first? What order does the ammo get used in? How soon after raining missiles (for example) will the ammo in my arms be depleted? How does the system of ammo deduction work?

Next Question: Even if you have spent all your ammo, can you still have an ammo explosion? Sounds stupid, but you never know when there's an imperfection in the system to look out for.

There's a total of 4 tons of LRM ammo sitting outside a safe area (I hope none of my enemies read this) which means 720 missiles exposed, and ready to explode. Smurfy's says 1.8 damage per missile, with 1 arm having a bad day that's 360 missiles blowing up causing 648 damage. Obviously the arms would go so my question is how much damage would be sustained to the torso from this explosion? Would it be instant death? It's a stalker, if it matters. Answer generally if you can, for reference in case people are inquiring a similar question regarding ballistics.

Head-CT-STs(order varies)-Arms(order varies)-Legs(order varies).

I don't think spent ammo can explode, but short version is that any explosion of that magnitude is going to maim or kill you. With an XL, kill, no doubt. I strongly suggest you re-vamp your XL-build to standard. XL Stalkers are, to put it nicely, a pretty bad idea.

[DEMAX51]

Okay, here's a few things...

First off, if you're using an XL engine, CASE does absolutely nothing, so don't bother using it. (CASE only stops the explosion from propagating damage to the next most inward location, so a CASE in the side torso will stop the explosion from reaching your center torso, but the ST with CASE in it can still be destroyed - since XL engine mechs are killed when they lose a side torso, CASE does nothing for them). Also, just for the record, Stalkers have gigantic Side Torsos, so it's a really bad idea to use an XL engine in them.

Second, ammo is expended in this order: Head, CT, LT, RT, LA, RA, LL, RL

Third, each ton of ammo can explode independently of any other, so just because you have 4 tons in your arm, it doesn't mean all 4 will explode - there's a 10% chance of a ton of ammo exploding once it's HP (10 points) has been depleted.

Fourth: Spent ammunition does not explode - the game actually tracks how much ammo is left in each "ton" and if one of them explodes, the damage you receive will be equal to the number of missiles (or shells) remaining in that ton multiplied by the amount of damage per missile (or shell).

Fifth: When a component is destroyed, any extra damage that component takes gets transferred to the next most inward part of the mech (arms and legs transfer to the ST, ST transfers to the CT), but 50% of the damage is completely lost upon transfer....

So if you have an ammo explosion in your arm that does, say 100 damage, and your arm only has 5 HP left...

5 damage will go toward finishing off the arm - of the remaining 95 damage, 50% of it (47.5 damage) will be transferred to the Side Torso. If that's enough to finish off the Side Torso, then 50% of any remaining damage will be applied to the Center Torso.

Edited by DEMAX51, 10 June 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

AFAIK, the order was always Head>CT>Left Torso>Right Torso>Left Arm>Right Arm>Left Leg>Right Leg.

Spent ammo will not explode, as the explosion damage is always per-bullet/missile damage multiplied by however many rounds remain in the bin. If zero, zero damage.

However, LRMs are 1.1 damage per missile, not 1.8. SRMs are 2.15, and SSRMs are 2.5.

And yes, XL equipped Stalkers are incredibly squishy compared to their STD counterparts. They have the same ability as the Centurion - a tiny and well-protected CT hitbox (from the front) and large ST locations. Hitting the ST from a Stalker's flank is the easiest shot in the world.

Related, but not required: When running LRM boats I aim for around 30 full volleys-worth of missiles. Helps with planning how much ammo to take.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Like, twice.

Edited by Arnold J Rimmer, 10 June 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Tonberry King]

Actually, I was on my JM6-S Dual Guass with an XL245 with AMS and the ammo was in the side Torso because I thought, hey, if my side torso goes then so does the rest of my mech. Turns out, a torso doesn't need to be "component destroyed" in order to cause an ammo explosion because I was only critical in my side torso and sure enough all the AMS ammo exploded about five seconds later, with no additional fire incoming. I'm not gonna go with a Case, just letting you know that it does have its uses alongside an XL engine. In this particular instance, I had simply forgot that Gauss ammo doesn't explode, so I switched them out.

I think I'll just place the bulk of them in the Left Torso, since that's where it seems to expend first. It's a boat, I sit in the back surrounded by "escort" mechs. Mediums only have that one purpose in the game. If I'm ambushed by a Light I'm dead anyway. It's a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. Everything has a weakness.

Although now I'm considering standard heatsinks since chain-firing lrm60 is freezing, free up some space. Plus, the Stalker 5S comes with an XL255, my only regret is going 4x 15 instead of 2 20 & 2 10 because of the (6) in torsos. Good chain fire, but a lot of wasted missiles. The question's been answered, thanks.

[DEMAX51]

Tonberry King, on 10 June 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Actually, I was on my JM6-S Dual Guass with an XL245 with AMS and the ammo was in the side Torso because I thought, hey, if my side torso goes then so does the rest of my mech. Turns out, a torso doesn't need to be "component destroyed" in order to cause an ammo explosion because I was only critical in my side torso and sure enough all the AMS ammo exploded about five seconds later, with no additional fire incoming. I'm not gonna go with a Case, just letting you know that it does have its uses alongside an XL engine. In this particular instance, I had simply forgot that Gauss ammo doesn't explode, so I switched them out.

I think I'll just place the bulk of them in the Left Torso, since that's where it seems to expend first. It's a boat, I sit in the back surrounded by "escort" mechs. Mediums only have that one purpose in the game. If I'm ambushed by a Light I'm dead anyway. It's a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. Everything has a weakness.

Although now I'm considering standard heatsinks since chain-firing lrm60 is freezing, free up some space. Plus, the Stalker 5S comes with an XL255, my only regret is going 4x 15 instead of 2 20 & 2 10 because of the (6) in torsos. Good chain fire, but a lot of wasted missiles. The question's been answered, thanks.

No, you don't have to have a component destroyed to have an ammo explosion. Here's how it works: any time you take damage to a part of your mech that has no remaining armor, there's a chance the hit will cause a "critical." When this happens, damage is done to the component, as well as at least one of the items stored in that component. Each individual item you can put in your mech has an amount of hit-points - for ammo, this number is 10. If the HP for the item is depleted, the item is destroyed (for ammo, this has a 10% chance to cause an ammo explosion).

The reason CASE does nothing for XL engine 'Mechs is because, when an ammo explosion occurs, the CASE only stops that damage from spreading to the Center Torso - it does not protect your Side Torso in any way - the Side Torso can still be destroyed by the ammo explosion, resulting in death for an XL engine mech. In your example when the AMS ammo exploded, a CASE would have only stopped that explosion damage from reaching your Center Torso - it wouldn't have protected your Side Torso at all.

And it's foolish to say "I'll go with an XL engine because if a Light gets on me I'm dead anyway." Maybe if you're using a standard engine that Light might be able to take out one of your Side Torsos, but your team team might be able to get back and support you before he does any more - you'd still have half of your weapons for the rest of the game, and if you don't think that 2 LRM15s can still put out some damage you're making a very big mistake.

And you absolutely do not want to use Single Heat Sinks. You might run pretty cool now, but Single Heat Sinks are horrendous - especially on hot maps that negatively affect your heat dissipation rate. If you want to free up some space or tonnage, just use fewer DHS. Plus it costs 1.5 million c-bills any time you want to switch from standard to double or back, so it'd be a waste of a lot of c-bills.

Edited by DEMAX51, 10 June 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Tonberry King]

DEMAX51, on 10 June 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

No, you don't have to have a component destroyed to have an ammo explosion. Here's how it works: any time you take damage to a part of your mech that has no remaining armor, there's a chance the hit will cause a "critical." When this happens, damage is done to the component, as well as at least one of the items stored in that component. Each individual item you can put in your mech has an amount of hit-points - for ammo, this number is 10. If the HP for the item is depleted, the item is destroyed (for ammo, this has a 10% chance to cause an ammo explosion).

The reason CASE does nothing for XL engine 'Mechs is because, when an ammo explosion occurs, the CASE only stops that damage from spreading to the Center Torso - it does not protect your Side Torso in any way - the Side Torso can still be destroyed by the ammo explosion, resulting in death for an XL engine mech. In your example when the AMS ammo exploded, a CASE would have only stopped that explosion damage from reaching your Center Torso - it wouldn't have protected your Side Torso at all.

And it's foolish to say "I'll go with an XL engine because if a Light gets on me I'm dead anyway." Maybe if you're using a standard engine that Light might be able to take out one of your Side Torsos, but your team team might be able to get back and support you before he does any more - you'd still have half of your weapons for the rest of the game, and if you don't think that 2 LRM15s can still put out some damage you're making a very big mistake.

And you absolutely do not want to use Single Heat Sinks. You might run pretty cool now, but Single Heat Sinks are horrendous - especially on hot maps that negatively affect your heat dissipation rate. If you want to free up some space or tonnage, just use fewer DHS. Plus it costs 1.5 million c-bills any time you want to switch from standard to double or back, so it'd be a waste of a lot of c-bills.

Amen on everything. I was just asking about a CASE to see if it would be useful, I forgot about critical hits and I've always wondered what HP meant for items/ammo. I'll post here as a bump for even more reference, since a lot of good information is being displayed here.

I realized after testing out 2 SHS that DHS is pretty much mandatory, but I may not need the two additional DHS since the 10 in the engine may be enough. I'll test that out when I finally afford it, see how it goes. My mech buildup is still in progress, right now with the 4 15's, the ones on the arms fire 2 salvos, torso fires 3 salvos, so I simply bind the 3 to button1 and 2 to button2 and once a target locks open up with the three, if they're still in sight, send the 2. Again I'll try it out but 2 20's and 2 10's weigh 2 tons more with same damage output, both do 2 salvos each, which I like because the spread isn't as ridiculous and I wanted to chianfire anyway. Switching to a STD engine would cost me more than a 1 LRM bay and as long as you realize torso armor is more important than leg armor, you take hits. Has anyone ever hit the head of a Stalker before? Does it even haev a head?

There's another thread arguging the purpose of Medium mechs, and it was pretty amusing to see how many people thought they were just big lights and small heavies. They don't have the mobility of a light, and certainly not the firepower of a heavy, so do the math. They make for good Light destroyers, and escorts, except the Shadowhawk that's a good ballistic damage dealer.

[DEMAX51]

Tonberry King, on 10 June 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Has anyone ever hit the head of a Stalker before? Does it even haev a head?

The Stalker's head sits right on top of the Center Torso, so it's not very easy to hit with direct-fire weapons because it's so high up (unless someone is standing on a platform above it, and firing down on the 'mech), but it'll get hit fairly often from things like air & arty strikes which drop shells from the sky.

Edited by DEMAX51, 10 June 2014 - 12:03 PM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Item hitpoints is just the critical damage necessary to destroy the component. Most things have 10HP - so a PPC or an AC10 can destroy any internal component if it gets a crit hit. The Gauss rifle has 3 (?) HP (and will explode for 20 damage when destroyed) and the AC20 has more than 10HP, but I'm not sure exactly.

The Stalker does have a Head location - you sit in it. It's tough to hit, but I've headshotted Stalkers before. Also you can be one-shot killed by artillery (happened to me going 100kph in a Centurion, it'll happen to a stationary missile turret of an STK) hitting you in the cockpit.

Mediums are the jack of all trades, and traditionally the best trade off between speed, firepower and armour for their cost. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a niche for a generalist machine in MWO, which is why they get ragged on quite a bit here. Doesn't stop them being my favourite class

EDIT: Again, goddamnit!

Edited by Arnold J Rimmer, 10 June 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Marvyn Dodgers]

Closing as solved per PM with OP.