34 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Mizeur, on 13 June 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

Do you want congratulations for killing pilots who probably would've died just as quickly with any other loadout? The speed isn't to outrun your light. It's to be in position where it's too dangerous for you to engage with enough time to get the kill.

LRM skirmishing isn't a novice tactic or skillset.

Yes, the BLR-1S with 30 tubes, 3xML, TAG, and BAP is the Platonic ideal of missile boats. 30 tube mediums are also a viable option. Saying they're not is just false.

I agree with what you're saying, on the most part. I prefer my BLR with 50 tubes. Medium LRM boats are good LRM boats, they can keep up with the main formation, and can definitely disengage and relocate faster than any other LRM boat out there. However, you should always have back up weapons. Going with nothing but LRMs is purposefully harming you and the team. Since instead of being able to fend for yourself, you will rely on people to peel light mechs off your back. It also means that you won't be able to venture far off from the main formation, as that will be almost a death sentence. Which restricts your mobility, the main reason you're in a medium LRM boat instead of an assault LRM boat.

[Koniks]

I agree to an extent. But it's a team game and mech customization allows for playing specific roles. So maxing out the capabilities as an LRM deliverer doesn't hurt you or the team if it allows someone else to specialize in close quarters combat or anti-light duties.

Let's use the SHD-2D2 as an example. As an LRM specialist, it'd carry 30 tubes+Artemis, 8 tons of ammo, TAG, BAP, and an XL280 to go 90kph. Yes, it needs to stay near the formation. But at that speed, it can also get to whichever flank needs the most help quickly.

You're probably sacrificing anywhere from 50-100 damage to carry 2xML in place of 2 tons of ammo, TAG, or the extra tubes. 2xML isn't going to deter many light pilots, so you're still going to need teammates to take care of the lights. You're going to have to drop down to the XL255 if you want to beef that up with 2xSSRM2 instead. That's probably a zero-sum trade in damage but at the cost of speed and agility. That loadout also locks you into being the most effective between 180-270m which is a lot more risky for an SHD than an ON1.

ETA: I haven't played with the 2K, which is probably the better alternative since it would likely only cost you 1 ton of ammo to add the 2xML while keeping the TAG. That would be a more reasonable build.

Edited by Mizeur, 13 June 2014 - 09:23 PM.

[Tim East]

Mizeur, on 13 June 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

I agree to an extent. But it's a team game and mech customization allows for playing specific roles. So maxing out the capabilities as an LRM deliverer doesn't hurt you or the team if it allows someone else to specialize in close quarters combat or anti-light duties.

This is super if you're not PUG'ing and can plan your tactics accordingly ahead of time. However, due to the fact that the matchmaker (to the best of my knowledge) does not take into account what you have loaded on your mech, it is possible to wind up with teams that overspecialize into worthlessness very easily. Or in some cases overspecialize into awesomeness, both in the sarcastic "there are five awesomes on my team" and the "holy crap the LRMageddon never died" ways. Sometimes at the same time.

[Koniks]

It's an acceptable risk as long as you're not doing something silly like taking a mech with only 10 tubes and nothing else.

[Tesunie]

MWO: Forums - Guide: A Balance Concept To Mech Building

MWO: Forums - Lrm Guide: Lrms Require Skill To Properly Use

MWO: Forums - Lrms, Spotting, And You 6/20/13

I think I agree with you. Strongly agree with you.

Considering my mech builds, Stalker 3F, Thunderbolt, Shadowhawk 2H, Shadowhawk 5M, Hunchback, Griffin, Locust (don't laugh, it seems strangely effective)...

[Vassago Rain]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

[IraqiWalker]

Vassago Rain, on 15 June 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

My God. I .... I never thought such horrors existed

[Appogee]

CaptainDeez, on 11 June 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

TL;dr version:
Don't put a single lrm10 on a dragon.

Thank you. This important topic certainly needed a thread .

I look forward to the sequels: "Don't put a single LRM15 on a Dragon", "Don't put a single LRM20 on a Dragon" and the potentially controversial prequel "Don't even put a pair of LRM5s on a Dragon".

[Lavos]

im practically new to MWO all things taken into consideration...but wow...even i wouldnt waste tonnage and slots like THAT

there must be some very...silly...people who play this game...to say it in a rather polite way

their definitly not the sharpest shears in the toolshed >_<

Edited by Lavos, 15 June 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[oldradagast]

Conn Man, on 11 June 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Maybe the mechlab freaked out and didn't save the load properly, and the player didn't notice until after launch.

That does happen sometimes... it's the only way to explain the Jagermech I saw a few months ago with nothing but 1 AC5 for weapons.

That being said, there are some folks who really don't understand the game. I saw a Victor this past week with 2 LRM 20's and 2 medium lasers. There is so much wrong with that setup it just leaves one wondering, and is solid proof of how badly folks can mess up builds if they don't understand all the undocumented details (missile tube limits, etc.)

As for the OP, there is nothing sadder than a missile boat with zero direct-fire weapons. You just walk under LRM range and kill it at your leisure.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Vassago Rain, on 15 June 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

Oh, I would believe it - partially because I see [Stuff] such as that almost every match (as well as seeing actually good players)
Sometimes I think they do it because after playing the game for over a year they are getting bored (but then...how many games would last that long?)

Lavos, on 15 June 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

im practically new to MWO all things taken into consideration...but wow...even i wouldnt waste tonnage and slots like THAT

there must be some very...silly...people who play this game...to say it in a rather polite way

their definitly not the sharpest shears in the toolshed >_<

For the longest time the only guide on how to use LRM can be summed up as "Only LRM because other weapons waste tonnage that could be used for more AMMO!!!!!"
The guy who wrote it made it a point to shout down and mock anyone who disagreed with him.

Last I heard from him he was one of the (if not THE) top posters over on reddit.

[1453 R]

‘Backup weapons’ are a myth. An LRM boat with two medium lasers is just as dead as an LRM boat with two extra tons of ammunition if anything else catches it. No joke. You may deal a few extra points of damage, but you’re going to die just as cold and alone if your team hangs you out to dry.

The school of thought being argued against in this thread is that if one is carrying IS LRM racks on something fast/agile enough to put them to proper use (the medium Lurmisher, such as a Griffin or Trebuchet, using 30 or so tubes), they do not have the weight to mount an effective secondary armament. Anything they do run is purely a token gesture that will not significantly affect the outcome of any real fight. Jenners and Embers will laugh at you just as hard whether or not you carry those two medium lasers or not – you’re just as dead if you get caught out by lights as if you carried nothing but tubes, and pretending anything else is pure delusion.

Medium ‘Mechs do not have the spare tonnage to mount effective backup armaments. Most anything heavier does not have the speed to properly utilize LRM systems. I have found one-count-it-one compromise, and it’s the sort of compromise a competitive upper-Elo player would sneer at and take a dump on in the hangar whilst calling me dirty names and pointing me at my Dragon Slayer with the anger stick.

You simply are not going to win a close-quarters fight with two medium lasers and nothing else. You’re not, and pretending you are is only setting yourself up for disappointment when that Jenner you were totez legit going to scare away with your glorious two-laser backup armament decides it’s not really all that intimidated and tears your legs off anyways. That guide Shar’s badmouthing up there would be Victor Morson’s old LRM Commandments thread, and regardless of the snafu that happened in there, the tenets it espouses are very good ones for learning the fundamentals of Lurmishing.

[Rogue Jedi]

having heard advice that a Dragon needs to go fast and that XL engines make you more vulnerable it is not inconceivable that a new player inexperienced at mech design would try something like this,
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...108f1d12f32c74c

then again it could have just been a joke build

[Dawnstealer]

Rattler85, on 13 June 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

LRMs need to be backed up by other weapons for when things get close. I have taken down several mechs that thought they had me when they got close to my C1 Catapult.

I also have a habit of staying close to friendlies when I am in my C1. Lights focus on me and my friends kill them.

I have seen Stalkers mounting all LRMs and you just have to get and stay in their face.

I do the same thing against PPC boats. Stand about 10 yards away and just happily pop them in half. Had one guy accuse me of cheating, had to explain that I was staying within 80m of him on purpose.

Still got called a cheating newb, though.

[Tesunie]

1453 R, on 16 June 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

‘Backup weapons’ are a myth. An LRM boat with two medium lasers is just as dead as an LRM boat with two extra tons of ammunition if anything else catches it. No joke. You may deal a few extra points of damage, but you’re going to die just as cold and alone if your team hangs you out to dry.

The school of thought being argued against in this thread is that if one is carrying IS LRM racks on something fast/agile enough to put them to proper use (the medium Lurmisher, such as a Griffin or Trebuchet, using 30 or so tubes), they do not have the weight to mount an effective secondary armament. Anything they do run is purely a token gesture that will not significantly affect the outcome of any real fight. Jenners and Embers will laugh at you just as hard whether or not you carry those two medium lasers or not – you’re just as dead if you get caught out by lights as if you carried nothing but tubes, and pretending anything else is pure delusion.

Medium ‘Mechs do not have the spare tonnage to mount effective backup armaments. Most anything heavier does not have the speed to properly utilize LRM systems. I have found one-count-it-one compromise, and it’s the sort of compromise a competitive upper-Elo player would sneer at and take a dump on in the hangar whilst calling me dirty names and pointing me at my Dragon Slayer with the anger stick.

You simply are not going to win a close-quarters fight with two medium lasers and nothing else. You’re not, and pretending you are is only setting yourself up for disappointment when that Jenner you were totez legit going to scare away with your glorious two-laser backup armament decides it’s not really all that intimidated and tears your legs off anyways. That guide Shar’s badmouthing up there would be Victor Morson’s old LRM Commandments thread, and regardless of the snafu that happened in there, the tenets it espouses are very good ones for learning the fundamentals of Lurmishing.

Though, seen as you mentioned it, Victor Morson made a lot of great points, I can't agree with him entirely. (Then again, I believe we were of a similar concept.) However, I'll let that rest in the LRM Commandment thread.

As far as not being able to split roles and still remaining effective:
MWO:Mechlab - GRF-3M
MWO:Mechlab - HBK-4SP
MWO:Mechlab - RVN-4X
A lot of my stable seems to want to disagree with that concept. (It could just be the way I tend to play my mechs though.) Mechs can pull dual role weapons fairly well, depending upon how it is played. I will agree that the smaller and lighter the mech, the harder it is to find the right balance.

I believe that, though boating does have it's place and for good reason, that boating is not the only way to play a mech. If you can find that right balance and weapon relationships, you can do well without boating. My Stalker still continues to see good results on the battlefield. (Especially when someone sees the LRMs coming out and charges me presuming I'm an LRM boat... Then they find out the hard way I'm not a boat.)

There is a purpose for boating and a purpose for balance. Each can be powerful, under the right circumstances and in the right hands/playstyle.