55 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Khobai, on 11 June 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

Doubtful. Since everybody using radar deprivation will make LRMs completely useless. Right now the only chance indirect LRMs have to hit is because of adv target decay. Without that anyone can just duck behind cover and all the missiles will miss. And if you have to direct fire LRMs, youre better off using any number of other direct fire weapons which are outright better.

Tag doesnt grant LoS. So radar deprivation and TAG have no interaction.

I doubt radar deprivation negates narc. Or there would be no reason to ever use narc. Because you could simply hard counter it with radar deprivation, making that module even more mandatory than it already is. So common sense says radar deprivation DOES NOT counter narc.

Yes youd still lose the target instantly. Why would ECM change how radar deprivation works? It wouldnt. Theres no reason to think ECM and radar deprivation would have any effect on eachother.

Just bear with me a bit, as I'm just looking at both sides of the coin and the application of RDM.

RDM and TAG, TAG's 1s designation may be lost once the target duck behind cover, that reduces the utility of an anti-ECM tool, it depends on how PGI coded the TAG's effect. If it doesn't, it's a cheap tool to help mitigate part of the RDM problem.

RDM and NARC, I agree NARC unlikely to be negated by RDM, which means NARC is a counter to RDM. Which in terms put NARC higher on the priority list of equipment to use, and as a side effect, NARC gives better situation awareness to the team anyway.

As for RDM and ECM, I'm looking more at application for light ECM scouts. RDM/ ECM combinations make it easier to scout and spot, which when done right negates the advantages of enemy RDM. So potentially better quality spotting, which helps in the LRM situation -- I don't need to waste ammo on fleeting locks, and can use more on better quality locks.

[Reptilizer]

Kilo 40, on 11 June 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

the problem is that all those things you said wasn't in writing or in the module description.

so please, stop spreading things that you completely made up.

I know it is small print, but i will cite it for you:

"If an enemy has targeted you and you move out of sight, that target will be instantly lost (no decay time)"

See the "no target decay" part?
If you got another interpretation of what "no decay time" could actually mean, please enlighten me.

[Kilo 40]

Reptilizer, on 11 June 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

I know it is small print, but i will cite it for you:

"If an enemy has targeted you and you move out of sight, that target will be instantly lost (no decay time)"

See the "no target decay" part?
If you got another interpretation of what "no decay time" could actually mean, please enlighten me.

you realize there is still target decay without the module don't you?

[Jetfire]

Khobai, on 11 June 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Dragon Slayers get 3 module slots. I see no reason why they cant take both.

The new modules are CLAN modules. Only for use on clan mechs. It seems like part of the balance will be that Clan and IS will have separate module pools to draw from, possibly some overlap but they made it clear in the vlog these 5 new ones are for Clans.

[A Man In A Can]

Reptilizer, on 11 June 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

"Quicker and more frequently" would imply a mechanic that tunes down the mechanic. Like: "75% faster target decay time".
As it is written now, it simply negates the whole mechanic. Like in "..will lose their locks instantaneously and always when LOS is broken for any time".

"Quicker and more frequently" assumes the instantaneous loss of lock, and is merely a predictive statement of trends to be seen in threads to come.

[Reptilizer]

Kilo 40, on 11 June 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

you realize there is still target decay without the module don't you?

No offense, but i would really appreciate if you get off your tall-legged mount and set me straight what your (for me at least) cryptic posts mean.

I do not complain about target decay in general.
I want to warn about introducing a module that negates a game mechanic. And by thus heavily influences all the other modules and equipment tied to that mechanic.
This just sounds like very bad game design. Especially when looking at what happened with introducing/breaking game mechanics the last few imes and that we are still laboring at some of those (ECM introduction anyone?).

[Kilo 40]

Reptilizer, on 11 June 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

No offense, but i would really appreciate if you get off your tall-legged mount and set me straight what your (for me at least) cryptic posts mean.

cryptic? ok...

Here let me lay it out for you. The citation you provided("If an enemy has targeted you and you move out of sight, that target will be instantly lost (no decay time)") does not support the assertions you made("It does not only hard counter target decay, it also hard counters 360.
Additionally it nerfs down beagle probes.")

you pointed out that mentions "target decay", so I pointed out to you that there is target decay, without the target decay module, so that is not proof that it would be a hard counter to the target decay module, or the 360 module. Those are complete assumptions on your part.

​understand now?

Edited by Kilo 40, 11 June 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The new modules are CLAN modules. Only for use on clan mechs.

Nope. IS mechs can use them too. It specifically says so in the Devblog #4 notes.

"Yes, you can take a Clan Pack Module that you got with your Clan Pack and put it on your InnerSphere 'Mechs. It will keep its unique visual effect."

"You can also buy the exact same module as the Clan Pack Module but it will not have the same visual effect and put those on your InnerSphere and/or Clan 'Mechs as well."

Source: http://mwomercs.com/...veloper-vlog-4/

Quote

you pointed out that mentions "target decay", so I pointed out to you that there is target decay, without the target decay module, so that is not proof that it would be a hard counter to the target decay module, or the 360 module. Those are complete assumptions on your part.

the way its worded indicates it does hard counter the adv target module. it doesnt say it reduces target decay time by 2 seconds. it says the the target is instantly lost and thats theres no decay time.

whether or not it counters bap and/or 360 is ambiguous and inconclusive. but its highly unlikely it will counter narc.

Quote

TAG's 1s designation may be lost once the target duck behind cover,

thats not how tag works though. tags designation doesnt go away if LoS is broken. tags designation lasts for 1 second regardless of whether you have LoS or not. so radar deprivation will have zero effect on tag.

Quote

This just sounds like very bad game design

Exactly. It falls in the same vein as ECM vs LRMs. Hard counters dont work in a game where both teams get randomly assigned mechs. Its like if you were playing rock paper scissors but instead of getting to choose what you play, its randomly determined. Better game design would use mostly soft counters, which would allow for skill/loadout to at least partially overcome those soft counters.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2014 - 03:52 AM.

[Kilo 40]

Khobai, on 11 June 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

the way its worded indicates it does hard counter the adv target module. it doesnt say it reduces target decay time by 2 seconds. it says the the target is instantly lost and thats theres no decay time.

whether or not it counters bap and/or 360 is inconclusive. but its highly unlikely it will counter narc.

It very well might. But that's not what it says.

[Ozric]

Hyperbole or not, the idea that this game-changing anti-lrm module will be a gold mech exclusive is really rather horrifying.

[Khobai]

Quote

Hyperbole or not, the idea that this game-changing anti-lrm module will be a gold mech exclusive is really rather horrifying.

its not gold mech exclusive. read the faq. anyone can buy it with cbills.

Quote

It very well might. But that's not what it says.

Its exactly what it says. It says "no decay time"

That means if its the default 2 second decay time it becomes 0 seconds (no decay time). Or if its 3.5 second decay time it also becomes 0 seconds (no decay time).

There's no other way to interpret that in the english language. If its not what PGI meant to say they shouldve worded it in a different and more concise way. So the question is, did PGI word it wrong? Because theres a huge difference between "no decay time" and "reduces target decay time by 2 seconds".

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2014 - 04:08 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Kilo 40, on 11 June 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

cryptic? ok...

Here let me lay it out for you. The citation you provided("If an enemy has targeted you and you move out of sight, that target will be instantly lost (no decay time)") does not support the assertions you made("It does not only hard counter target decay, it also hard counters 360.
Additionally it nerfs down beagle probes.")

you pointed out that mentions "target decay", so I pointed out to you that there is target decay, without the target decay module, so that is not proof that it would be a hard counter to the target decay module, or the 360 module. Those are complete assumptions on your part.

​understand now?

Actually, no.
Read the citation again.
With 360 you do not lose lock when the target is behind you (breaking LOS/moving out of sight) after target decay times out. The module description as it is written states clearly that the lock will break. There is no hint that 360 will override the new module. So that this is not the case and 360 overrides this effect would be considered as an assumption as far as i am regarded.

Same with advanced target decay module. This sets target decay time to other vaules.
While the text of the new module states that there will be instant loss of lock and no decay time. So what makes you assume the advanced target decay modules overrides the new one?

As i twist and turn it still sounds like a hard counter for both to me. At least until i got more info on how it will work.

As far as BAP is regarded: BAP lets me see very near targets without LOS. The new module states "instantly lost". Now one can assume again, that it would be utter nonsense to lose a signal acquired by BAP when losing LOS since there even would not be no LOS required to begin with. But this - again - is an assumption...

Sorry, i am not able to follow your line of arguments. Taking the description face value i do not come to any other conclusion really.

Edited by Reptilizer, 11 June 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

BAP lets me see very near targets without LOS.

BAP actually doesnt let you see targets without LOS.

All BAP does is increase sensor range, increases detailed target info speed, counters ECM, and lets you target shutdown mechs within 120m (normally you cant target shutdown mechs at all).

So really it has no effect on BAP at all. Unless its a shutdown mech that somehow moves out of LoS while shutdown (which I suppose is possible if a poptart shutsdown mid-air).

As for 360, it depends on whether or not it counts as LoS. If 360 counts as having LoS then radar deprivation most likely would not counter it. Could go either way with 360...

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Khobai, on 11 June 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

BAP actually doesnt let you see targets without LOS.

All BAP does is increase sensor range, increases detailed target info speed, counters ECM, and lets you target shutdown mechs within 120m (normally you cant target shutdown mechs at all).

So really it has no effect on BAP at all. Unless its a shutdown mech that somehow moves out of LoS while shutdown (which I suppose is possible if a poptart shutsdown mid-air).

As for 360, it depends on whether or not it counts as LoS. If 360 counts as having LoS then radar deprivation most likely would not counter it. Could go either way with 360...

BAP: You are right and i am delusional.
Probably because all my light hunters got BAP and 360 together either way, creating the impression for hunting ECMs...

With 360:
I understood it to be holding the lock regardless of position as long as the 200m radius is not breached. No LOS involved at all for 360.
Edit: Which is bullshit, because you can get out of lock by breaking shared LOS. So it is probably just getting your 90° LOS cone enhanced to 360° for a radius of 200m. Still not clear to me, because you still move out of sight, which would be the 90° cone...

Edit2: But even if 360 is working with 360° short range LOS the module would be nerfed. Since you still would instantaneously lose lock when LOS is broken instead of having any target decay preventing this. This is impacting 360 quite a bit, since you usually regain 360° LOS quite easily before decay times out when fighting in a 200m bubble.
And when the lock is gone, 360 does not get it back...

Edited by Reptilizer, 11 June 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[Lostdragon]

As soon as I read about this module I thought "Well this is going to be the new go to module." If this module were somehow restricted to only light mechs, and maybe specifically those in a scouting role, I could see it maybe being ok. As it stands now, I think this is going to be OP in the hands of smart pilots with good tactical awareness. It won't be OP to the same level as pre-nerf seismic sensor, but this and arty strike will probably be on every mech I play.

I can see LRM pilots being justifiably upset about this. I think the Target Decay module is a bit much as it stands now, but this is going to make LRM support a more difficult role (especially without a dedicated spotter).

[Lily from animove]

@ khaobi, in the AMA Russ said the unique moduls won't be available after the sale. So it should not be a to go mod ro everyone.

Also its a mod only for those who bought a gold mech.

[Reptilizer]

Lily from animove, on 11 June 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

@ khaobi, in the AMA Russ said the unique moduls won't be available after the sale. So it should not be a to go mod ro everyone.

Also its a mod only for those who bought a gold mech.

Which would be pay to win out of the book.
Yay! \o/
Not!

If it proves so then design goes by haps,
some PGI kills with nerfbats, some with moneytraps...

[Lily from animove]

Reptilizer, on 11 June 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Which would be pay to win out of the book.
Yay! \o/
Not!

If it proves so then design goes by haps,
some PGI kills with nerfbats, some with moneytraps...

I wonder if this may make the pro gaming tournament faction going to buy gold mechs just because of this now ^^.

But on the other side, If everyone would be able to buy this mod, it would not really mke sense, since some other mods, like decreased decay time would be totally obsolete.

[Lynx7725]

Lostdragon, on 11 June 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

I can see LRM pilots being justifiably upset about this. I think the Target Decay module is a bit much as it stands now, but this is going to make LRM support a more difficult role (especially without a dedicated spotter).

Not upset. One, I can adapt. Would still be killing things. Two, with RDM around, hopefully less LRM SpamPlayers would show up. Those just give us LRM Specialists a bad name. Three, I suspect LRM Specialists would gain even more from RDM than other builds.

[l33tworks]

Obviously PGI knows the CLAN mechs would have been absolutely smashed by LRMs at launch without some help due to their slow speed and sustained fire weapons requiring staying in the open longer, so thats why this module is dropping alongside with them. Expect it to be pretty strong for a number of months until the CBill clan mechs get well under way, then we will likely see an adjustment to it.

Edited by l33tworks, 11 June 2014 - 05:52 AM.