65 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Ted Wayz, on 11 June 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

But that is my opinion. Which clan mech do you see being the biggest pain the keister for the IS to deal with?

MisterPlanetarian, on 11 June 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Nova, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, in no particular order.

1 King Crab deals with 1 Dire Wolf with incredible ease. Demonstrated.


That poor Dire Wolf. He had a bad time.

And that was a King Crab with LB-10s.

[Firelizard]

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

1 King Crab deals with 1 Dire Wolf with incredible ease. Demonstrated.


That poor Dire Wolf. He had a bad time.

And that was a King Crab with LB-10s.

The dice gods had forsaken him that day.

[Felbombling]

I have a feeling the Stormcrow and the Dire Wolf will be the two Mechs most people dread. Dire Wolf for obvious reasons, but the Stormcrow has max armour and a great engine, coupled with a very strong Pod space allotment. Ultra AC/20 with 5 bins, 3x ER Medium Laser and, if they are mountable on the Stomcrow, a Targeting Computer Mk. III. Still wondering if Mechs must have a Targeting Computer originally to mount a Targeting Computer. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

[Pygar]

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

1 King Crab deals with 1 Dire Wolf with incredible ease. Demonstrated.


That poor Dire Wolf. He had a bad time.

And that was a King Crab with LB-10s.

Well right, on the bright side for IS mech pilots Clan mechs still die mostly the same as anything else, minus the partial immunity to ammo explosions and side torso engine crits.

The bad news is there are a lot of quite possible and probable weapons loadouts on many of the Omnis that can do twice as much damage as people are used to seeing from mechs of comparable sizes, and that is going to be ugly in a game where x amount of people are already concerned with "Time To Kill" already being too fast. Most IS mech pilots already have their armor maxed out, have their engines as fast as they can go, are using ECM and AMS as much as possible, and are already spending as much time hiding behind cover as they can stand...the extra damage the Clans are going to bring is going to be brutal even with DOT mechanics slowing it down over a few seconds. (or even less, tenths of seconds in some cases.)

Edited by Pygar, 11 June 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Sephlock]

The Stormcrow looks to be about half the size of Unicron.

The six MG dire wolf is going to wreck face though.

[Koniving]

Pygar, on 11 June 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Well right, on the bright side for IS mech pilots Clan mechs still die mostly the same as anything else, minus the partial immunity to ammo explosions and side torso engine crits. The bad news is there are a lot of quite possible and probable weapons loadouts on many of the Omnis that can do twice as much damage as people are used to seeing from mechs of comparable sizes, and that is going to be ugly in a game where x amount of people are already concerned with "Time To Kill" already being too fast.

Thankfully in MWO, the big trend has been to nerf the living crap out of them by making all their weapons non-pinpoint.

(U/LB)ACs? Burst fire. (Good thing but this shouldn't be Clan exclusive).
ER PPC? Damage division between point of impact and adjacent points.
Missiles? Ripple fire (giving more time to shoot them down with AMS).
ER Lasers? Longer beam time.
Pulse lasers? Longer beam time.

The only thing the Clans will have as pinpoint from everything said will be the Clan Gauss Rifles.

[Natasha Radick]

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Thankfully in MWO, the big trend has been to nerf the living crap out of them by making all their weapons non-pinpoint.

(U/LB)ACs? Burst fire. (Good thing but this shouldn't be Clan exclusive).
ER PPC? Damage division between point of impact and adjacent points.
Missiles? Ripple fire (giving more time to shoot them down with AMS).
ER Lasers? Longer beam time.
Pulse lasers? Longer beam time.

The only thing the Clans will have as pinpoint from everything said will be the Clan Gauss Rifles.

So sad that they were "Balanced" into the ground because of fear of "breaking" the game. Why wasn't leaving the Clan Tech left alone and just limiting the number of Clan Mechs into a drop used instead?
I'd much rather face an entire lance by myself in a Timberwolf than have these ridiculous nerfs in place.
As is, and some of you have experienced this in game, I have gone face to face against a lance of IS mechs in my Ilya Muromets and ***** face as is. I've read in previous postings to just have 8 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs. That would have been much more fun than what's on the way.

Edited by Natasha Radick, 11 June 2014 - 04:54 PM.

[Koniving]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Non-lore people wouldn't understand and would cry about the total lack of teammates. Or they'd complain about how powerful the Clan mechs are.

Or they'd complain about not being able to play their Clan mechs in public matches since mix/matching them would be completely impossible.

[Pygar]

I guess it's just me...but I think despite all the nerfs that the Clans will still be really powerful. I guess we'll know a lot more tomorrow. I'll be there seeing if my recent favorite IS mechs can get any kills while not getting totally roasted by some of the nasty Omnimech combos that are possible.

[Natasha Radick]

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Non-lore people wouldn't understand and would cry about the total lack of teammates. Or they'd complain about how powerful the Clan mechs are.

Or they'd complain about not being able to play their Clan mechs in public matches since mix/matching them would be completely impossible.

I don't see how matching them would be impossible. How hard is it for two stars of Clan mechs to drop against three lances of IS mechs? Isn't that just a simple line of code? Knowing the lore previously has nothing to do with it. If you don't know the lore, then it's your personal responsibility to go and do at least a little bit of light reading on it. Or. Remain ignorant on why things would exist the way they are if it was implemented to lore standards. Now, I'm not saying your ignorant based on your response. But the masses would be if they whined and complained about not understanding those methods if they didn't just go to Sarna.net and do a few minutes of reading. This is the age of information afterall, right?

[Koniving]

Pygar, on 11 June 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

I guess it's just me...but I think despite all the nerfs that the Clans will still be really powerful. I guess we'll know a lot more tomorrow. I'll be there seeing if my recent favorite IS mechs can get any kills while not getting totally roasted by some of the nasty Omnimech combos that are possible.

Isn't just you.
Burst fire or not, their UAC/20 will be able to do 120 to 140 damage in 10 seconds.
The AC/20 only does 60.
Their UAC/10 will do up to 100 damage.
AC/10 only does 50.
Sure it's spread more, but in comparison all of their weapons are more powerful.

The good news (for the I.S.) is that most of the Clan weapons are apparently designed around DPS tactics rather than "twist and shoot."

Poptarting? Out the window and not nearly as effective. Shoot and twist? Worthless.

It'll be something like this Atlas (pretend it's a clan mech) versus the typical Inner Sphere tactics.
(Ignore the after-message, PGI won't change thresholds no matter how easy it is to abuse).

No matter how much you twist away, no matter what the Inner Sphere tactics are... it may be true that the Clans cannot use them, but their weapons are designed to screw the Inner Sphere in spite of that.

(Twist away from me while you reload; my weapons are still pounding you and will keep doing it when you twist back. Try to poptart and I will lob LRMs in your general direction and 'spread' them into a wall that you'll jump right back into. What's that? You've got twin AC/20s? I've got UAC/20s -- and mine will mess up your aim!)

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

So sad that they were "Balanced" into the ground because of fear of "breaking" the game. Why wasn't leaving the Clan Tech left alone and just limiting the number of Clan Mechs into a drop used instead?
I'd much rather face an entire lance by myself in a Timberwolf than have these ridiculous nerfs in place.
As is, and some of you have experienced this in game, I have gone face to face against a lance of IS mechs in my Ilya Muromets and ***** face as is. I've read in previous postings to just have 8 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs. That would have been much more fun than what's on the way.

They couldn't limit the number of clan mechs in a drop. It's basic math.

Ignore fanboys for a moment here, on either side. Random players have the choice: Pilot the elite, super-powerful war machine that will be outnumbered but outgun it's enemies, or pilot the crappy zergling-mech. People like to do that. You don't even get the "underdog" thing, because matches are still ostensibly balanced by numbers, as such, both sides are "fair".
Most players, then, go Clan. That's not a stretch, it's inevitable in a world where individually clan mechs are much more powerful than IS mechs.

But, there are fewer clan mechs per drop than IS mechs, and more Clan mechs in the matchmaking pool than IS mechs. See the problem? Clan players suddenly can't get a match at all.

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't see how matching them would be impossible. How hard is it for two stars of Clan mechs to drop against three lances of IS mechs? Isn't that just a simple line of code? Knowing the lore previously has nothing to do with it. If you don't know the lore, then it's your personal responsibility to go and do at least a little bit of light reading on it. Or. Remain ignorant on why things would exist the way they are if it was implemented to lore standards. Now, I'm not saying your ignorant based on your response. But the masses would be if they whined and complained about not understanding those methods if they didn't just go to Sarna.net and do a few minutes of reading. This is the age of information afterall, right?

He said mixing them would be impossible - players in clan mechs couldn't drop alongside (not against) players in IS mechs, and vice versa.

But the extension is correct, too - matchmaking would be impossible period. You'd need 50% more IS mechs than clan mechs in the pool to get matchmaking to work, but there'd be many more clan mechs than IS mechs in the pool.

[Koniving]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't see how matching them would be impossible. How hard is it for two stars of Clan mechs to drop against three lances of IS mechs? Isn't that just a simple line of code? Knowing the lore previously has nothing to do with it. If you don't know the lore, then it's your personal responsibility to go and do at least a little bit of light reading on it. Or. Remain ignorant on why things would exist the way they are if it was implemented to lore standards. Now, I'm not saying your ignorant based on your response. But the masses would be if they whined and complained about not understanding those methods if they didn't just go to Sarna.net and do a few minutes of reading. This is the age of information afterall, right?

Matching IS versus Clan is easy.

But public matches have the goal of letting you play whoever you want with whoever you want. That means IS and Clan players on the same sides. I'm sure you heard, PGI intends to allow you to do whatever and play whatever in regular public matches (which are separate from community warfare even if somehow they magically have some influence....the logic here eludes me).

There's also the maximum use of servers. 12 versus 10 means 2 slots aren't getting used. And I'm going to guess with how poorly this game runs on high end systems (much higher end games, run just fine. This game? It's just awful on my processor's temperatures but Star Citizen runs just fine), that they are afraid of trying to do 16 versus 10 (26 players) for clear-cut reasons of too many people with low end computers.

[ScarecrowES]

I think the Timberwolf will probably be the most annoying overall. Basic build qualities lend possible loadout combinations that are currently pretty... lamentable. Pop-tarting, missile boating, etc. Or, hilariously, both at the same time.

Depending on how thoroughly nerfed clan tech ends up being, the Dire Wolf will either be gamebreaking, or merely ridiculously overpowered. Really, I've looked at numerous possible builds, and if this thing has a bead on you, you're going to hurt. I expect torso traversal speed to be super slow to prevent the Daishi from being able to bring guns to bear. It's about the only way this will be beat.

I'd say the Nova would be annoying, but default engines are just to slow for the class. We can't change them, so no dropping all those extra lasers for a bigger engine. The S variant will probably be best as something more like a heavy light than a straight up medium.

I think the Stormcrow will surprise people. Good speed for a medium... a Prime layout players will want to keep. A full-on missile boat with min-5 missile hardpoints (20 tubes in each arm). Or a nice combination of the two. Very flexible.

[Natasha Radick]

Wintersdark, on 11 June 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

They couldn't limit the number of clan mechs in a drop. It's basic math.

Ignore fanboys for a moment here, on either side. Random players have the choice: Pilot the elite, super-powerful war machine that will be outnumbered but outgun it's enemies, or pilot the crappy zergling-mech. People like to do that. You don't even get the "underdog" thing, because matches are still ostensibly balanced by numbers, as such, both sides are "fair".
Most players, then, go Clan. That's not a stretch, it's inevitable in a world where individually clan mechs are much more powerful than IS mechs.

But, there are fewer clan mechs per drop than IS mechs, and more Clan mechs in the matchmaking pool than IS mechs. See the problem? Clan players suddenly can't get a match at all.



He said mixing them would be impossible - players in clan mechs couldn't drop alongside (not against) players in IS mechs, and vice versa.

But the extension is correct, too - matchmaking would be impossible period. You'd need 50% more IS mechs than clan mechs in the pool to get matchmaking to work, but there'd be many more clan mechs than IS mechs in the pool.

How would Clan players suddenly and magically get no matches at all? This isn't just Clan vs IS. Last I looked, Clan Wolf hates Clan Jade Falcon. Why wouldn't I be able to get pitted against other Clan players? So everyone goes to Clan Mechs. Okay. So then it's Clan vs Clan and everything is even anyway. Still fail to see a problem. Plus, as is. There are so many players who will stick to IS tech anyway because of their own affiliations and loyalty to the Houses. And. What about Mercs? Players who don't want to belong to any faction and are just there for the money? Look at The Bounty Hunter for reference. He had several IS mechs AND several Clan mechs.
Ultimately, I fail to see the issue. Bottom line: Clan mechs are supposed to be superior in every single way. Period. IS mechs are *INITIALLY* supposed to be inferior to Clan Tech in every single way. And all for the sake of "balance" that's being thrown out the window because people want to whine and complain that so many things are broken, when in fact not many things actually are.

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Matching IS versus Clan is easy.

But public matches have the goal of letting you play whoever you want with whoever you want. That means IS and Clan players on the same sides. I'm sure you heard, PGI intends to allow you to do whatever and play whatever in regular public matches (which are separate from community warfare even if somehow they magically have some influence....the logic here eludes me).

There's also the maximum use of servers. 12 versus 10 means 2 slots aren't getting used. And I'm going to guess with how poorly this game runs on high end systems (much higher end games, run just fine. This game? It's just awful on my processor's temperatures but Star Citizen runs just fine), that they are afraid of trying to do 16 versus 10 (26 players) for clear-cut reasons of too many people with low end computers.

Why would it be 16 vs 10?

8 Clan vs 12 IS.
12 Clan vs 12 Clan.
12 IS vs 12 IS.

In the case of Merc corps, only two clan mechs would be allowed on any giver merc corps team. So.
2 Clan + 10 IS vs 2 Clan + 10 IS for merc corps.

If some slots in a server aren't being used, wouldn't that free up resources to run other games?

[Koniving]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Why would it be 16 vs 10?

The typical BV of 5 Clan mechs is that of 8 Inner Sphere. For 10 Clan mechs, it's 16 Inner Sphere.

8 versus 12 is spitting on the lore as much as nerfing them. Clans don't move in packs of four, they move in packs of five.
Meanwhile Inner Sphere move in packs of four.

And even in 8 versus 12... The Clans would not only Decimate the opposition, but there wasn't even enough Inner Sphere there to call it a "balanced even" fight. You'd need 16 Inner Sphere mechs, usually heavies and assaults to compete with 10 Clan mediums.

And heaven forbid if it was 10 Clan assaults. 16 Inner Sphere heavies and assaults wouldn't be nearly enough even with all the meta cheese in the world.

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

How would Clan players suddenly and magically get no matches at all? This isn't just Clan vs IS. Last I looked, Clan Wolf hates Clan Jade Falcon. Why wouldn't I be able to get pitted against other Clan players? So everyone goes to Clan Mechs. Okay. So then it's Clan vs Clan and everything is even anyway. Still fail to see a problem. Plus, as is. There are so many players who will stick to IS tech anyway because of their own affiliations and loyalty to the Houses. And. What about Mercs? Players who don't want to belong to any faction and are just there for the money? Look at The Bounty Hunter for reference. He had several IS mechs AND several Clan mechs.
Ultimately, I fail to see the issue. Bottom line: Clan mechs are supposed to be superior in every single way. Period. IS mechs are *INITIALLY* supposed to be inferior to Clan Tech in every single way. And all for the sake of "balance" that's being thrown out the window because people want to whine and complain that so many things are broken, when in fact not many things actually are.

It's horribly bad game design. All those players with a huge investment in IS mechs, suddenly rendered worthless. This is, after all, a game. So players who've spent lots of real money getting mechs that are instantly obsoleted. Not "Oh, the Jenner is obsolete now we have the Firestarter" obsolete, but much more literally so.

Sure, it's awesome if your a clan player, but for the IS folks? Now you're just a zergling. Nobody wants to be a zergling (diehard IS fans notwithstanding).

And yeah, I'm aware that IS tech progressed, but that won't be for some time yet.

It's a PvP game. The hard reality is that you need balance if you want anything more than the most hardcore of fans to stick around.

[Natasha Radick]

Koniving, on 11 June 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

The typical BV of 5 Clan mechs is that of 8 Inner Sphere. For 10 Clan mechs, it's 16.

8 versus 12 is spitting on the lore as much as nerfing them. Clans don't move in packs of four, they move in packs of five.
Meanwhile Inner Sphere move in packs of four.

I forgot that teensy detail, thank you for the reminder. But with keeping in the tradition of "Balancing" everything into the ground, that's why I went with just 4 instead of 5. Hence my model for 8 vs 12.

If it's an issue with server side problems. Then where in the name of Zeus's ******** has all the money that so many players have spent on things like: MC, Premium Time, Paint Schemes, Hero Mechs, Bundles, Founder's Packs, Phoenix Packs and Phoenix Booster Packs and now Clan Packs gone? Surely that's well into the millions of dollar ranges. Me thinks it's time PGI upgraded their hardware for the sake of their players. Unless they really are all running around in Lambos and Maseratis (sp?) as we speak because of our stupidity in spending our cash on their game.

Wintersdark, on 11 June 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's horribly bad game design. All those players with a huge investment in IS mechs, suddenly rendered worthless. This is, after all, a game. So players who've spent lots of real money getting mechs that are instantly obsoleted. Not "Oh, the Jenner is obsolete now we have the Firestarter" obsolete, but much more literally so.

Sure, it's awesome if your a clan player, but for the IS folks? Now you're just a zergling. Nobody wants to be a zergling (diehard IS fans notwithstanding).

And yeah, I'm aware that IS tech progressed, but that won't be for some time yet.

It's a PvP game. The hard reality is that you need balance if you want anything more than the most hardcore of fans to stick around.

This gave me a lot of understanding. Thank you.

[Corbenik]

Natasha Radick, on 11 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't see how matching them would be impossible. How hard is it for two stars of Clan mechs to drop against three lances of IS mechs? Isn't that just a simple line of code? Knowing the lore previously has nothing to do with it. If you don't know the lore, then it's your personal responsibility to go and do at least a little bit of light reading on it. Or. Remain ignorant on why things would exist the way they are if it was implemented to lore standards. Now, I'm not saying your ignorant based on your response. But the masses would be if they whined and complained about not understanding those methods if they didn't just go to Sarna.net and do a few minutes of reading. This is the age of information afterall, right?

The Masses will still whine and complain it will never stop .

[Alexandrix]

I think really only 2 of the clan mechs will pose any problems for the IS poptart metamechs.

1.The Timberwolf - This thing is so ridiculously versatile.It can mount a staggering array of weaponry of all types depending on your mood.It can fill pretty much any role.It moves at nearly 90kph(w/speed tweak)....and can mount JJ's! With a good pilot that knows how to use it as a striker/flanker/poptart.....and doesn't get into prolonged brawls(shoulder/missile pods will be stupid easy to blast off)....this mech will be a downright menace.

2.The Direwolf - Yea.Just.....yea.The only thing that gives me pause about this one is the speed.It's slow as balls,and it's a big arse target.Poptarts are going to eat it alive.BUT....if someone does have the misfortune of ending up in the dire wolf's kill zone......well,it's going to absolutely and unequivocally RIP THEIR GORRAM FACES OFF.

Honorable mention to the Stormcrow.That one looks to have some potential.
The others I'm not to impressed by really.

Edited by Alexandrix, 11 June 2014 - 06:12 PM.