27 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

ScarecrowES, on 15 June 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I would argue there that splash damage on a pinpoint weapon is never considered a plus. Further, adding a little range and splash damage to a weapon that is already considered unusable in the current game (as IS ERPPCs generally are), is also not a plus.

And is any weapon that cannot be boated for 100PP deemed unusable due to the meta?

I mean, pretty much every thread I read where people are unable to efficiently boat like 10 of any given weapon and generate 0 heat, they call it UP and worthless and cry....Lets look at the Nova now, its getting it's ghostheat changed and now people are saying its going to be horrid.

It reminds me alot of Planetside 2 Liberator bomber pilots who expect to fly into heavy flak and not be melted in seconds.

How bout people try to chain fire, learn fire discipline. Learn not to just Lolpha strike everything. This game is alot more fun when its not lolpha strikes under every rock, around every corner and mechs are not melting in 5 seconds flat. Gotta say, PTS was alot of fun, I think for that very reason.

[Reno Blade]

The arc is not touching the head, same as streaks.
Side torso hits arm and center. arms or legs only hits side torso.

As I posted with the graphs, if you are not super accurate and only hit 1 section, but actually spready your hits around anyway, then the splash evens out and you are actually doing 15 damage instead of only 10 damage (concentrated to one section).
It's hotter and it spreads some of the damage, just like lasers do if you are not super accurate.


Curently they are way better than ERLL even with the tonnage and heat, because you don't have to stay out of cover for 1 second and you can twist away to protect your torso faster.
Using this arc for IS PPCs would bring them to normal levels.

But as I also said, the IS ERPPC with this arcing damage component would probably need to have a little reduction in heat to compensate for the arc/splash.

Edited by Reno Blade, 15 June 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Lootee]

Reno Blade, on 15 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

But as I also said, the IS ERPPC with this arcing damage component would probably need to have a little reduction in heat to compensate for the arc/splash.

I wouldn't be opposed to making the IS ERPPC do 12dmg or maybe even 13dmg if it's something like 8 + 2 + 2. Not TT numbers but wutever, almost none of the weapons in MWO are.

If regular PPCs were 8 + 1 + 1 with 90m min range, and ERPPCs were 8 + 2 + 2 with no min range paying the +50% heat tax for the ER version suddenly looks much more attractive. And it wouldn't be far too inferior to the Clan version.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 15 June 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 June 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

And is any weapon that cannot be boated for 100PP deemed unusable due to the meta?

I mean, pretty much every thread I read where people are unable to efficiently boat like 10 of any given weapon and generate 0 heat, they call it UP and worthless and cry....Lets look at the Nova now, its getting it's ghostheat changed and now people are saying its going to be horrid.

It reminds me alot of Planetside 2 Liberator bomber pilots who expect to fly into heavy flak and not be melted in seconds.

How bout people try to chain fire, learn fire discipline. Learn not to just Lolpha strike everything. This game is alot more fun when its not lolpha strikes under every rock, around every corner and mechs are not melting in 5 seconds flat. Gotta say, PTS was alot of fun, I think for that very reason.

I don't know or care anything for "meta" and wish people would stop misusing the word, to be honest. What can be said for truth is that an ERPPC shot generally takes more than 30% of a mech's available heat scale, variable based on the size of the heat scale. 2 ERPPCs are at about 60-70%. For 20pts damage plus 10 distributed for Clans. As such, ERPPCs are fundamentally unfeasible for sustained fire in quantities greater than one on any mech. Chain fire doesn't come into it. Firing even one ERPPC at full rate will overheat you within a few shots even alone... let alone if you have any other energy weapons on your mech. Case in point, my Raven-3L with one ERPPC and one ML will overheat in 4 successive ERPPC shots at full rate without the ML, or 3 or fewer if I work the ML in, and that's with 14 DHS.

It's exactly why you only see one ERPPC on a mech unless they're pop-tarting. The 15 heat makes them worthless.

[EvilCow]

Clan ER PPCs should be compared to IS ER PPCs, not plain PPCs.

Clans simply don't have an equivalent anymore, the ER version is supposed to be good enough. The answer should consider the mech as a whole, the CERPPCs have their own advantages:
- Increased damage, non pinpoint but still more damage.
- Reduced weight.
- Reduced crits.
And are mounted in omnimechs with intrinsic advantages:
- More compact heat sinks: you can mount more.
- More compact engines, FF and ES free space and weight for additional heat sinks.

Because of the above points clans do not support non-ER technology anymore.

[ScarecrowES]

EvilCow, on 15 June 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Clan ER PPCs should be compared to IS ER PPCs, not plain PPCs.

Clans simply don't have an equivalent anymore, the ER version is supposed to be good enough. The answer should consider the mech as a whole, the CERPPCs have their own advantages:
- Increased damage, non pinpoint but still more damage.
- Reduced weight.
- Reduced crits.
And are mounted in omnimechs with intrinsic advantages:
- More compact heat sinks: you can mount more.
- More compact engines, FF and ES free space and weight for additional heat sinks.

Because of the above points clans do not support non-ER technology anymore.

What works in Tabletop doesn't work in MWO. Clan ERPPCs in tabletop could kill most mechs at 65 tons or less and strip the side torso of an Atlas in 2 shots. Even IS ERPPCs could do it in 3. At the MWO heat scale, you're looking at being able to take down an Atlas firing at full rate without overheating... following Tabletop rules. All those weapon stats make a lot more sense in that case.

[EvilCow]

Who mentioned tabletop? I described actual game implementation of ERPPCs and CERPPCs. Clan tech provides the mean to compensate for increased heat.

The idea is that clan mechs should be able to use 2 CERPPCs, I think this is the balance point they are seeking.

Edited by EvilCow, 15 June 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

EvilCow, on 15 June 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Who mentioned tabletop? I described actual game implementation of ERPPCs and CERPPCs. Clan tech provides the mean to compensate for increased heat.

The idea is that clan mechs should be able to use 2 CERPPCs, I think this is the balance point they are seeking.

Unless they upgrade the heat table for clan mechs significantly to allow ERPPCs a comparable percentage of heat table per shot compared to IS standard PPCs, this won't happen. 15 heat is 15 heat is 15 heat. Even a 50% increase in total damage (let alone that 50% coming in the way of splash) is not enough to justify the heat over other weapons. This is exactly why people will nearly always choose the standard IS PPC over the ER, despite the shorter range and 90m minimum. That 50% extra heat is better used elsewhere. For the amount of sinks necessary to make ERPPCs viable as a primary weapon, you might as well just mount a 5-series ballistic and do more damage more quickly for the same amount of weight.