16 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

Greetings!

Please tell us your thoughts on Clan Electronic Countermeasures.

[Redshift2k5]

what do

[Xephan]

Not much to say, IS ecm in a small light box.
Btw ty for the Kit Fox - C Right arm <3

[Vanguard319]

1/2 ton lighter, takes up one crit, does everything the Guardian ECM does, what's not to like?

[Deathlike]

In terms of balance, 1 ton, 1 crit Clan ECM vs 1.5 ton, 2 crit ECM is already unfair.

What's worse - they have the same health.

It is far easier to "crit buffer" Clan ECM, especially when it takes less slots. The math simply suggests that the IS ECM is easier to "get rid of".

The suggestion goes two ways (you can do one or both in some form):

1) Buff IS ECM Health - needs to be buffed - between 3.5 and 4.5 health.

2) Nerf Clan ECM Health - needs to be nerfed - between 2 and 2.75 health.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 June 2014 - 09:10 PM.

[Vanguard319]

Deathlike, on 12 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

In terms of balance, 1 ton, 1 crit Clan ECM vs 1.5 ton, 2 crit ECM is already unfair.

What's worse - they have the same health.

It is far easier to "crit buffer" Clan ECM, especially when it takes less slots. The math simply suggests that the IS ECM is easier to "get rid of".

The suggestion goes two ways (you can do one or both in some form):

1) Buff IS ECM Health - needs to be buffed - between 3.5 and 4.5 health.

2) Nerf Clan ECM Health - needs to be nerfed - between 2 and 2.75 health.

It's not unfair at all, seeing as there is only one omnipod for one clan mech, and it's in an arm. There are at least 5 IS mechs, all of whom have ECM in their torso, making them far less likely to be destroyed.

[SpiralFace]

I'm actually inclined to agree with the durability needs a nerf if we where attempting to balance it across the spectrum from Clans to IS tech.

Given how much of a force multiplyer this piece of equipment is, I think there has to be some drawback to it.

Its easy to say that this thing is fine as is on a Kitfox, but eventually, its going to be STOCK on a Hellbringer prime, deep inside of a torso, that has a TON of weapons and equipment (including a TC) padding it.

I think that reason alone makes Deathlike's concerns a valid one to have at this point.

[MonkeyCheese]

Deathlike, on 12 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

In terms of balance, 1 ton, 1 crit Clan ECM vs 1.5 ton, 2 crit ECM is already unfair.

But it is on a 30ton (think armor...) kitfox that goes 97-106kph and as Van says it is on the arm

This is nowhere near the capabilities of a commando/raven/cicada with ecm. This mech cant go rambo off alone and it cant weave at high speed between other people brawling.

AKA a blackjack speed medium with worse armor, alpha the arm and problem solved.

[Deathlike]

MonkeyCheese, on 12 June 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

But it is on a 30ton (think armor...) kitfox that goes 97-106kph and as Van says it is on the arm

This is nowhere near the capabilities of a commando/raven/cicada with ecm. This mech cant go rambo off alone and it cant weave at high speed between other people brawling.

AKA a blackjack speed medium with worse armor, alpha the arm and problem solved.

You have to consider that ECM can be on OTHER mechs too, so it's not just the Kitfox/Uller that has to be dealt with.

If you're considered about the Kitfox in particular, would it not make sense to "buff" internal armor for that "ECM-arm"?

That would be more appropriate than "not touching it on Clan mechs at all. We're talking about obvious logistical issues when it comes to the crit system in this game. Hitting a 1 crit ECM slot is "harder" than a 2 crit ECM slot. That's exactly why the IS AC20 has a health buff.

[MonkeyCheese]

Deathlike, on 12 June 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

You have to consider that ECM can be on OTHER mechs too, so it's not just the Kitfox/Uller that has to be dealt with.

If you're considered about the Kitfox in particular, would it not make sense to "buff" internal armor for that "ECM-arm"?

That would be more appropriate than "not touching it on Clan mechs at all. We're talking about obvious logistical issues when it comes to the crit system in this game. Hitting a 1 crit ECM slot is "harder" than a 2 crit ECM slot. That's exactly why the IS AC20 has a health buff.

I guess you are right, it is quite padded in that arm with 3ams ecm 1energy weapon and whatever else you choose to stuff in there, but once the armor is gone there is a good chance the entire thing is gonna go flying off soon anyway unlike the ecm in a spider for example.

Also it does really cut down the kitfoxes fire power unless you go lpl or ppc in that arm.

[SpiralFace]

Just to put things in perspective,

By CANNON, a Hellbringer Prime has a left torso that has:

an XL engine
A clan TC
ECM
BAP
3 ER ML's,
And two empty slots that can be loaded up with a heat sink or more equipment to further pad.

The XL is the only thing not targetable in the current game. EVERYTHING else will pad that thing at an insane rate.

THIS is what people are worried about and I feel it makes for a valid concern given that you know the Hellbringer is going to make it into this game at some point in the future. (Its too popular for them not to do it.)

Right now, with only a single light able to carry it, its not bad as is, because the arm location is a drawback in itself. But it will be next to impossible to hit the component out on mechs like the Hellbringer that can both torso store it, and pad it with tons of equipment.

[Errodien]

(people are going to hate me for suggesting it) But Clans need more ECM applicable mechs. Right now, the Kit Fox is pretty much DoA against any team with somewhat good aim. We really need to either have more clan mechs like the Hellbringer, or maybe some IIC's that have ECM.

Right now as it stands, if you want to play with clan mechs with your lance, someone has to be the better man and either:

A: Get in a Kit Fox C and ****** around all of you for the entire game.
B: Go in a I.S. mech to give ECM.

Otherwise you are vulnerable to LRM's. With the amount of LRM's that both I.S. and Clans have on stock? That ain't a good thing at all.

Edit: lol, 'bug'er' is censored?

Edited by Errodien, 13 June 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[DarkMetalBlade]

Errodien, on 13 June 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Go in a I.S. mech to give ECM.

That's what I might end up doing. I'm not much of a light pilot myself, so if I find out that we've lost a match because we got LURMed to death & everyone's allergic to ECM, not even the new clan mechs will stop me from fielding one of my two DDCs from time to time.

[SpiralFace]

I don't think anyone can disagree with Errodian that the clans need more Selection of ECM mechs, But with the Hellbringer and the Myst Lynx being well known platforms for it, I'm sure its an issue that will work itself out with time.

That being said though, having a bit of a durability nerf to the critical HP is a good solution to help balance it out. Clan ECM becomes just as powerful as IS ECM, but for less weight, but the durability is a concern that will see the need to "guard" the location the ECM is in better as a "needs more skill to use" aspect of the Clan Game design.

As it stands now, it seems to be superior in LITERALLY every way to the IS version, and the IS version is already strong enough as it is.

[Errodien]

SpiralFace, on 13 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I don't think anyone can disagree with Errodian that the clans need more Selection of ECM mechs, But with the Hellbringer and the Myst Lynx being well known platforms for it, I'm sure its an issue that will work itself out with time.

That being said though, having a bit of a durability nerf to the critical HP is a good solution to help balance it out. Clan ECM becomes just as powerful as IS ECM, but for less weight, but the durability is a concern that will see the need to "guard" the location the ECM is in better as a "needs more skill to use" aspect of the Clan Game design.

As it stands now, it seems to be superior in LITERALLY every way to the IS version, and the IS version is already strong enough as it is.

I don't see how that's a problem. It's on an arm too, so it's already vulnerable as is.

It's not like the clans got an ECM Daishi with it in the side torso which has a wall of armor in front of it. *cough* Atlas *cough*

[Fire and Salt]

Deathlike, on 12 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

1) Buff IS ECM Health - needs to be buffed - between 3.5 and 4.5 health.

2) Nerf Clan ECM Health - needs to be nerfed - between 2 and 2.75 health.

I agree. IS ECM needs to have at least 2x the health of clan ECM due to crit padding issues.


1/2 ton and 1 slot is not really relevant for build concerns IMO - no mech is going to have more than 1, and it will only have it if it has the special hardpoint.


I wouldn't be opposed to the clan ECM being super vulnerable once the armor is gone - like .5 health. You can really feel the lightness lol.

[MonkeyCheese]

Errodien, on 13 June 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

A: Get in a Kit Fox C and ****** around all of you for the entire game.
B: Go in a I.S. mech to give ECM.

I plan to do both, especially since I only got the kitfox pack, But as I have said elsewhere usually I will try to cover team members with ecm, not just strap erLL on a mech and run off at 150kph.

If anything the fact that the kitfox is slow is a good thing as your team will most likely get covered by ecm.

And I am sure other mechs wont have the 3AMS + ECM combo that the kitfox has.