121 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Carrioncrows, on 13 June 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv...ows/b/537921712 @7mins in

Did you shutdown?, fall off your chair? or have to run for the phone?

Curious what happened there.

Phone. The college called about providing a grant to help with my tuition for game design. I was simultaineously asking the girl not to pick it up if it was a 412 number because it'd take me an hour to get off the phone again.

But grants are good things, so it was a good thing I got stuck with the phone anyway. Got me 6,000 towards my tuition, and at a bit between 3k and 4k per class that helps a bit.

[1453 R]

Wispsy. Quietate thyself.

We get it – you’re a crazy-awesome super l337 dood who plays games far above the rest of us useless scrubs, and thus can’t afford anything that’s less than utterly and completely optimized. In such an environment, no, the Invasion lights will not excel.

But you know what?

My Kit Fox does something utterly unique in all of MechWarrior Online. It runs 25 tubes of LRMs, at 106kph Tweaked, with jump jets and ECM. No other ‘Mech in all of MWO can mimic that combination of traits. None of them. Not one. Hell, only a very few IS ‘Mechs can even hit three of the four (speed, 25+ tubes, jets). And what’s worse, I could squeeze a CERML and a couple of machine guns with a half-ton of ammo (OH EM GEE HALF-TONS OF AMMO ARE SO BALLER) onto the thing as well, for poking people when an LRM shot’s a bad idea and fishing for crits in wounded enemies. All of that, with four jump jets, five tons of ammo, and the Prime CT Hero-ish bonus.

That machine is unique, and is as close as I’m ever going to get to my beloved Hellspawn. Do I particularly care that the Stormcrow can mount far more weight of LRM tubes and carry double the armor for the same footspeed? No – the Stormcrow can’t mount ECM or jump jets, and I have other plans for that ‘Mech anyways. Yeah, the Adder’s in something of a bad position at the moment, but you know what? If people like it and want to play it, that’s their prerogative. It’s still smaller than most mediums out there, turns and twists faster because of its lighter weight, and has all the colossal armament advantages of the significantly-less-nerfed-than-expected Clan weaponry.

I like my Clan lights. That’s enough reason for me to play them. If that’s not enough reason for you, or doesn’t hold true for them, then don’t play them. Wait for the Fire Moth, then you can cry ‘OP CLAN WARPSPEED LIGHT DIE’ with everybody else.

[MonkeyCheese]

Can't comment on the adder but the kitfox is the ultimate babysitter Mech.

Build the kitfox around the c arm with the ecm and 3 ams then work on purchasing the ams overload and ams range modules then master it and place a seismic sensor in the third slot and you have the perfect umbrella for missiles as long as you stick with friendlies of similar speed. Then you have plenty of space for some jjs and MG's if you choose then fill the rest out with missiles/energy.

[Rhaythe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 June 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Well yeah? But what keeps Eglar and Proton from cresting the ridge and saying "Hmm, Dire Wolf and Kit Fox...I'll go ahead and drop the Kit Fox quickly, then kill his buddy while my friend the Ember runs around at 150kph, hitregging all of the non-FLD clan weapons like a champ"?

[1xLocustx1]

1453 R, on 13 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Wispsy. Quietate thyself.

We get it – you’re a crazy-awesome super l337 dood who plays games far above the rest of us useless scrubs, and thus can’t afford anything that’s less than utterly and completely optimized. In such an environment, no, the Invasion lights will not excel.

But you know what?

My Kit Fox does something utterly unique in all of MechWarrior Online. It runs 25 tubes of LRMs, at 106kph Tweaked, with jump jets and ECM. No other ‘Mech in all of MWO can mimic that combination of traits. None of them. Not one. Hell, only a very few IS ‘Mechs can even hit three of the four (speed, 25+ tubes, jets). And what’s worse, I could squeeze a CERML and a couple of machine guns with a half-ton of ammo (OH EM GEE HALF-TONS OF AMMO ARE SO BALLER) onto the thing as well, for poking people when an LRM shot’s a bad idea and fishing for crits in wounded enemies. All of that, with four jump jets, five tons of ammo, and the Prime CT Hero-ish bonus.

That machine is unique, and is as close as I’m ever going to get to my beloved Hellspawn. Do I particularly care that the Stormcrow can mount far more weight of LRM tubes and carry double the armor for the same footspeed? No – the Stormcrow can’t mount ECM or jump jets, and I have other plans for that ‘Mech anyways. Yeah, the Adder’s in something of a bad position at the moment, but you know what? If people like it and want to play it, that’s their prerogative. It’s still smaller than most mediums out there, turns and twists faster because of its lighter weight, and has all the colossal armament advantages of the significantly-less-nerfed-than-expected Clan weaponry.

I like my Clan lights. That’s enough reason for me to play them. If that’s not enough reason for you, or doesn’t hold true for them, then don’t play them. Wait for the Fire Moth, then you can cry ‘OP CLAN WARPSPEED LIGHT DIE’ with everybody else.

I do agree on some parts.

as long as you have true fun with playing that mech everything is fine and working as intended.
look at it this way if its hard to play or difficult to use, and play a great round it does feel better, atleast in my opinion.

that narrow minded thinking of "all lights go off wolfpacking and they hunt for clan lights especially" it just annoys me.
will be thinking about that when i stay close to my assault buddies and help them to kill that poptart victor over there faster so we can get to the typical witch hunt for the lights that are left over faster.

[CG Chicken Kn]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

So they play like a medium mech, one of the weaker classes by far, except worse in every way...

My Shadowhawk would like to have a word with any mech of your choice.

[Rando Slim]

@ Koniving

The quote thing doesn't work but like I said, you ditch the flamer on the Adder prime, you instantly bump up its heat efficiency rating by about 3 tenths, that's quite significant. If not, why then does everyone build mechs with 1.2-1.4 heat efficiency? As far as I can tell its because you won't accumulate heat as quickly and it will dissipate faster. I didn't think it mattered whether you used the weapon or not. If I'm wrong, well then can someone link me to what hat efficiency really means or does in this game, or how heat in general works? I've apparently been thinking about it all wrong for over a year.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 13 June 2014 - 04:57 PM.

[Wispsy]

CG Chicken Kn, on 13 June 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

My Shadowhawk would like to have a word with any mech of your choice.

Whilst the Shadowhawk is by far the best medium, you still take cataphracts or victors or highlanders etc over it. Also it is only 5 tons off being a heavy, so is not that much less armoured, some of the best hardpoint positioning in the game and a super compact torso great for twisting. This is not common in all mechs and especially not in clan lights.

Now if you were to use an average medium mech, not the best, it is not in a good place...compared to other classes.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

1453 R, on 13 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Wispsy. Quietate thyself.

We get it – you’re a crazy-awesome super l337 dood who plays games far above the rest of us useless scrubs, and thus can’t afford anything that’s less than utterly and completely optimized. In such an environment, no, the Invasion lights will not excel.

But you know what?

My Kit Fox does something utterly unique in all of MechWarrior Online. It runs 25 tubes of LRMs, at 106kph Tweaked, with jump jets and ECM. No other ‘Mech in all of MWO can mimic that combination of traits. None of them. Not one. Hell, only a very few IS ‘Mechs can even hit three of the four (speed, 25+ tubes, jets). And what’s worse, I could squeeze a CERML and a couple of machine guns with a half-ton of ammo (OH EM GEE HALF-TONS OF AMMO ARE SO BALLER) onto the thing as well, for poking people when an LRM shot’s a bad idea and fishing for crits in wounded enemies. All of that, with four jump jets, five tons of ammo, and the Prime CT Hero-ish bonus.

That machine is unique, and is as close as I’m ever going to get to my beloved Hellspawn. Do I particularly care that the Stormcrow can mount far more weight of LRM tubes and carry double the armor for the same footspeed? No – the Stormcrow can’t mount ECM or jump jets, and I have other plans for that ‘Mech anyways. Yeah, the Adder’s in something of a bad position at the moment, but you know what? If people like it and want to play it, that’s their prerogative. It’s still smaller than most mediums out there, turns and twists faster because of its lighter weight, and has all the colossal armament advantages of the significantly-less-nerfed-than-expected Clan weaponry.

I like my Clan lights. That’s enough reason for me to play them. If that’s not enough reason for you, or doesn’t hold true for them, then don’t play them. Wait for the Fire Moth, then you can cry ‘OP CLAN WARPSPEED LIGHT DIE’ with everybody else.

It's funny that you mention the LRMs and ECM because I was getting a laugh out of a Kit Fox running that very config and soloing an LRM Stalker after having snuck around behind it.

He was smart and did it from long range so the missiles didn't give away his position on the Stalker's HUD, and was out of the Stalker's TAG range. Even if he had been spotted, the Stalker wouldn't be able to get an effective lock on him before he ducked for cover. Of all the stuff yesterday, that's the one thing I wished I'd gotten recorded on video.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 13 June 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[Kassatsu]

Heat sinks dissipate a set amount of heat per second, additional heat sinks also increase your capacity. As I've said before, the rating in the mech lab is just some arbitrary number thrown on based on your loadout and heat sinks. It doesn't affect your dissipation because you have a weapon you never use equipped.

http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Heat_Sinks

[Mcgral18]

Kassatsu, on 13 June 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Heat sinks dissipate a set amount of heat per second, additional heat sinks also increase your capacity. As I've said before, the rating in the mech lab is just some arbitrary number thrown on based on your loadout and heat sinks. It doesn't affect your dissipation because you have a weapon you never use equipped.

http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Heat_Sinks

2.0 heat capaity for the internal engine heatsinks, 10 if you have a 250 rated engine. 1.4 for each external heatsink. 0.2 and .14 heat dissipation for the above.

Having doubled basics gives a 20% capacity boost and 15% dissipation boost.

You're right that weapons have no impact on the above stats, other than generating heat.

[Kassatsu]

Mcgral18, on 13 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

2.0 heat capaity for the internal engine heatsinks, 10 if you have a 250 rated engine. 1.4 for each external heatsink. 0.2 and .14 heat dissipation for the above.

Having doubled basics gives a 20% capacity boost and 15% dissipation boost.

You're right that weapons have no impact on the above stats, other than generating heat.

Yeah, people keep thinking that 0.9 heat efficiency in the mech lab is some horrible thing when in reality their dissipation might be exactly the same as a mech with half their weapons that has a rating of 1.4. Was going to quote exactly what you just said from an old post from one of the devs but you beat me to it.

EDIT: Those are for doubles of course. Singles are all 1.0 and 0.1.

Edited by Kassatsu, 13 June 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[CG Chicken Kn]

I personally do not take any of those mechs over a Shadowhawk. Ever, for any reason.

I suppose if I was populating a team of poptarts, then I might. But I wouldn't pilot one.

But whenever I catch any of said mechs alone with my medium, it is very rare that I lose that fight.
Same as every other build. People see so and so do well in build x, they make that mech, then proceed to suck in it.

Skill beats fotm build any day of the week.

Edited by CG Chicken Kn, 13 June 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[Octavian]

I feel like clan lights will have a better role if 4x3 ever becomes a reality.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Believe it or not, you comp guys are great for pointing out flaws for balancing purposes (assuming Devs pay attention) but you are horrible examples to set the "general public" gameplay around, and you are also, actually, in the extreme minority, playerbase wise.

Well, the view is occasionally skewed due to personal views. Sometimes "widening your horizons" help a lot in understand where people are coming from.

On the other hand, I've seen a fair share of bad balancing ideas... so it's easier to say "you're not playing at my Elo level, thus you're not understanding why it isn't going to work more often than not". It's a sad but true commentary.

For instance, I still see SL and SPL Jenners being fielded. These are terrible things. Even with the range buff, they are still in a bad place... because even decent boats field a reasonable # of medium lasers... and trying to counter the range with speed is like asking whether you'd like to be eaten up by an AC40 Jager... you need all that range that the IS med laser provides to minimize exposure sometimes.

What people think "seems ok", upon further review can look rather silly. 120m for both would go a long way... but that's on Paul to address.

Quote

Heck, most of you guys don't even seem to care about lore, hence have little attachment to the IP itself and will move on to "greener pastures" long before us misguided Lore Types will.

Obviously one cannot successfully translate lore and mechanics from a TT game to a VideoGame FPS environ, but the feel should be maintained, or there is no point licensing an IP in the first place.

I think you can't really be "strict to lore", but you can base some ideas around lore where it is applicable. I feel that having pulse lasers work closer to "pinpoint" beam durations (but not reaching that, unless you're the terrible IS SPL) would help give it a role as it would "reflect" the "accuracy" that pulse lasers are supposed to inherit from TT rules. Of course, there are other suggestions like low recharge (MG-like cooldowns) that are designated DPS machines (to be different than regular lasers). Of course... that's up for PGI to try.

For instance, I did think the Orion NEEDED that hitbox overhaul, so it could be the "mini-Atlas" in lore. Before the hitbox change, it was a super-easy thing to core. These things CAN BE FIXED, but it's up to PGI to fix them (like the Awesome, particularly the PB).

Rhaythe, on 13 June 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Clan lights, as far as I could tell yesterday, will not play the role IS lights will. Instead, they will be funneled into more of a harder-hitting escort that can bring more punch to the fight than their faster counterparts. This is going to play a big role when rule-of-threes goes live.

Clan Lights will clearly never be anything like IS Lights. That's fine and all. The reality is that it amounts to being serving a role that other mechs already do better. Even the slower 2 PPC Cicada is a lot more sustainable than whatever powerhouse you can come up with the ECM Kitfox. So, what Wispsy is saying isn't wrong... I'm sure someone can come up with a decent build, but it won't honestly excel over existing solutions... which is what he's ultimately implying.

Quote

More guns, more damage. I'm surprised the FLD crowd doesn't like this.

It doesn't always work that way. There's a reason why the meta mechs are what they are. You can put that loadout AND have a reasonably tanky mech (based on its hitboxes) with good weapon firing locations (the higher, the better generally). If you're just loading up on weapons, and sacrifice surviveability, it doesn't lend to success (you need to be able to dish more damage and takes as little as possible).

For instance, the Thunderbolt-9SE seems to be an interesting candidate for a poptart. It's rather tanky... but if you've ever tried to successfully poptart with it, it's not that great. Your cockpit view prevents you from shooting stuff under you, unlike the Cataphract... and outside of not having ballistic points (which is kinda important in the current meta), it's one thing to assume things work the way they should, but sometimes you need to think critically why things never work the way they should.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Deathlike, on 13 June 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

Clan Lights will clearly never be anything like IS Lights. That's fine and all. The reality is that it amounts to being serving a role that other mechs already do better. Even the slower 2 PPC Cicada is a lot more sustainable than whatever powerhouse you can come up with the ECM Kitfox. So, what Wispsy is saying isn't wrong... I'm sure someone can come up with a decent build, but it won't honestly excel over existing solutions... which is what he's ultimately implying.

The first batch anyway. They didn't give us the fast lights but I'm pretty sure they're on the list to be added. MASC needs to get sorted out first and I doubt 20 and 25 tonners will be all that popular even if they fix the terrain issues.

The real game changer will be when the second run of Medium mechs comes into play and they add the Ice Ferret, Viper, and Shadow Cat. At that point, IS lights are doomed. Especially since many can mount enough FLD to instagib a light that turns to run and I think all 3 can also run ECM.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 13 June 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[wanderer]

Scrotacus 42, on 13 June 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Like I said before, the Adder could almost not suck if you get rid of the flamer to rid it of its heat problems. a twin ERPPC Cicada with just ten heat sinks and an xl-300 runs at 1.16 heat.......which is still pretty awful. So yea, the flamer is the culprit.

I still don't get it.

Why on earth does half a ton of fixed equipment somehow hose the Adder in staying cool?

Just don't fire the stupid flamer. With twin ER PPCs, you have far better things to do with your heat load than add insignificant amounts of damage for incredibly inefficient levels of added heat. Take the flamer out of the equation. It's still a hot-running light, given- but strip out the targeting computer and add three more heat sinks. 14 DHS is functional.

Or swap hardpoints and you've got enough energy points to mount 4x CERML and twenty-two DHS, or 3xCERML + CERLL and 19 DHS. Take the Adder-A and mount Prime arms on it. 4 energy hardpoints, 900m max reach, and each CERML hits like a slightly weaker ISLL.

Or mix up the Prime on one arm, the A on the other, with a D torso. 3 SRM-6 + CERML, 4 1/2 tons of ammo, 16 DHS.

That's one thing about Clan designs- we have to realize that the mix-and-match hardpoints allow for some creative reconfigurations, and that in turn opens a lot more in possible roles for their lights. With the lower speed, they'll never be wolfpacking it around- but the little monsters are still quite capable of being dangerous. That being said, until 3/3/3/3 comes around, a Clan medium will be better, and IS lights can replace nearly any role a Clan one does better.

[BigJim]

I posted this breif vid on the PTS vids thread, but I thnk it's worth putting here too - I suffered a lot of horrible deaths in the first test in my Kitfox (the only clam I bought) due to trying out odd builds like the Clan gauss, 2t ammo sniper, or the cPPC/UAC10 fail-monster, but I did have some success in trying to crowbar it into a Jenner-esque role too..

Encoded & Upped @ 720p on YT.


Unfortunately I only remembered to hit record near the end of this game when I was the last man standing, as I'd cockedup a few vids already, trying to do a "how to" on how the omnipod system works in the mechlab... :s

Personally I love my little kitfox, but I'm itching to do some real 1v1 trials vs well built, well piloted IS Lights using a multitude of different loadouts..

[Wispsy]

good stuff and all...but that is a serious amount of missing they did there..I mean you shut down and took zero damage and you wrecked that other Kit Fox so easily...you can make anything work if you are just that much better then your opponents...

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 13 June 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

Clan Lights will clearly never be anything like IS Lights. That's fine and all. The reality is that it amounts to being serving a role that other mechs already do better. Even the slower 2 PPC Cicada is a lot more sustainable than whatever powerhouse you can come up with the ECM Kitfox. So, what Wispsy is saying isn't wrong... I'm sure someone can come up with a decent build, but it won't honestly excel over existing solutions... which is what he's ultimately implying.

Doesn't have to. Just has to be viable and have an effective role. Also, as other Clan Mechs come in, they will fill the light squirrel role, as Firemoths, Piranhas and such appear. Technically half the IS Lights are DOA to the comp crowd, but IMO that is a horrible reason to dismiss them, since the comp crowd is probably less than 5% of the playerbase.