121 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Clan lights don't fill the light role is what people are saying in this thread. Both the people saying they are crap and the ones who are thinking they are good.

Clan mediums are better at being mediums... just saying

[wanderer]

Right. Clan lights do not function like IS lights- something I was calling before we even saw them in action. That's obvious. It's whether they're useful that is the question.

I say yes, but that's taking 3/3/3/3 or potentially CW into account.

[ShadeofHades]

Adamski, on 12 June 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

Kit Fox build:
2x Clan ERPPC
2x Clan Machine Gun x1 ton ammo
ECM
Max armor

Has a 30 point alpha, with nice cool machine guns for up close work while you surf the heat wave from your PPCs.

I did something similar, though I didn't realize the ECM arm was available. Went in with:
Max armor
2x ERLL
SSRM4 w/ 1ton ammo
MG w/ 1 ton ammo

Wrecked a firestarter and a commando, and did 3-400 damage each match I played - though I'll admit it was only 2-3 matches I was able to get in. Most fun I've had in a light since ever, though to be fair the Locust is my light mech experience.

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Clan lights are absolutely useless...I cannot think of a single reason to bring one over a nova or stormcrow except if you are forced into it (NOW WE KNOW WHY 3-3-3-3 IS SUCH A BIG DEAL). Hell they only move 10kph slower then a Timberwolf...you have a little more tonnage for weapons sure but there is a reason that every single IS light runs max engine and sacrifices huge amounts of guns for it...I mean I can run a large alpha light mech at 100kph with a small engine...but I never would because it is a really dumb choice to make and I laugh at every single Jenner I have ever seen running under 130kph no matter what amazing load out they put on with the sacrificed speed. Being seen in this thing is going to feel very similar to being seen in a locust...sure you have more armour, less speed, but you will still get 1shot and you have no way of avoiding it at all...

Even if you were to say it has a role as a sniper light (only role it could ever fulfill in a high skill game) the Cicada does that better...as it has better heat and moves significantly faster...and has better hardpoint layout for it.

If you're in ELO hell, that's probably true. PPC and AC perfect shooting will ruin a 30-35 armor CT pretty quick. But if you're bad enough to still see some variety (and I'll freely admit that I do, and therefore am) I saw very good suvivability in my Kit Fox through each match I played with it - never died, actually, though I took hits across the frame (Prime with S legs for JJ).

Edited by ShadeofHades, 13 June 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[1xLocustx1]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

That is not a question of you (or I or anyone) having large amounts of situational awareness and skill...simply your enemies lacked both of those qualities in large amounts.

I have pulled off 800 damage in a stock raven 2x with multiple kills...yes I played amazingly but the ONLY reason it was at all possible was my opponents were terrible and most of the time completely ignored me.

I have to tell that we lost that match anyways.

its just that i think the clan lights have a right to be in the game, especially those two that we have right now.
i dont care about competetive teams that much. only like 5 chassis out of all we have right now are used there.
it just annoys the hell out of me that most people send those mechs to hell before they even get the hang of them.
the Awesome as example is perfectly fine in my eyes.

I just really like the Adder i loved it since MW3.
it may be not the right mech for 12mans or comp. play but to see it in this new style is awesome.
as long as its fun to play its not completely useless.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Reb, on 13 June 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

Yep no scout just support!

If im doing that the sniper, cicada can do it better, with ecm!

show me which cicada can pack clan erppc and 3 ams and an ecm? My Kitfox can. And JJs.

Koniving, on 12 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Too small.
Minimum size of a mech in BT is 8 meters. Commando and Hunchback are supposed to be the same size (BT official scale; I'm not kidding), and both are taller than a Raven. So those are small. o.o; The biggest is 14 (Centurion in MWO is 14.7 meters). (Going by the official BT scale, the BT Centurion is taller than a Timber Wolf. Timber Wolf at 75 tons is 12.6 meters in BT. A 100 ton Dire Wolf is 12.3 meters in BT. A 20 ton Firemoth is and I kid you not 11.4 meters. Just food for thought.)
>.>; So I find exception here.

Btw turn those to the side, and that Jenner is HUGE, while the Kitfox isn't.
(Side note: Atlas is tall. 17+ meters in MWO. BT? No taller than 13 meters; with Centurion being as tall.)

Mechscales of 35, 50, and 55 tonners (with a 20 tonner). Warning: animated gif. Warning: File size.
In order: Locust (20). Jenner(35). Adder/Puma(35). Raven(35). Kitfox(35). Firestarter(35). Hunchback(50). Nova(50). Centurion(50). Stormcrow(55). Shadowhawk(55).

Spoiler

(Fun notes: Centurions are supposed to be taller than Hunchbacks, but considerably skinnier (so much so that it defies any logical sense). Commandos and Hunchbacks are supposed to be the same height, but the Hunchback much thicker. Shadowhawks are supposed to be tall (they're recon units). Ravens are supposed to be shorter beaked (much shorter beaked) but considerably thicker-bodied. Jenners are supposed to be short (as a result of the legs being connected at the shoulders; there IS no pelvis on a Jenner. The Jenner itself is supposed to be wide with skinny legs with a Star Trek Kirk-era Enterprise A saucer section but not much extension beyond that. Sometimes its good to abandon some height aspects.)


Otherwise we'd have 11.4 meter tall 20 tonners and 8.3 meter tall Novas with 35 ton mechs Kit Fox and Adder being 8.7 and 8.8.

To mention it, the MWO height (these are all MWO heights at this point) of a Centurion is 14.7 meters tall. The Jenner is 9.4 meters tall. The Hunchback is 13.3 meters tall. The Shadowhawk is greater than 15.5 meters tall.

So as I was saying, with the Atlas being 17 meters tall in MWO, these mechs are too short. The Commando if you want to compare it isn't the height of a Hunchback and the KitFox and Adder are not taller than the Nova.

However, as I said I'll take exception to it, because with the way the game is currently designed making them any bigger is a death sentence.

know what's insane about that scale?

The Thor is specifically singled out in it's writeup as being super tall. Yet some nimrod went and made the hellbringer, without any such mention, similar build and 5 tons less, as .5 meters taller? CBT consistency at it's finest, lol!

White Bear 84, on 12 June 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

It is a great looking mech - nice, shiny and new lookin, but yeah a bit big



Adjust tactics accordingly. Can't wait to try out my ember vs clan lights

from the side though it's nowhere near as long as the Jenner or Raven. It does still feel a bit oversized, but I never got the impression that it was getting hit excessively easy because of it. Mine surprised me with ti's durability.

Scrotacus 42, on 12 June 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Well the cap is the same as far as I know, but AFAIK the number isn't completely accurate, and the flamer screwes it up really bad for some reason, but yea that number does directly determine the rate at which you accumulate and dissipate heat. And boy it sure performed like it. An alpha strike with it at 0.95 would get me immediately up to like 58 percent heat. Anyway not trying to argue I just know I overheated a lot after literally 5 ppc shots that all you can get and your gonna cook.
Theres a reason everyone who plays this game builds their mechs to have at least 1.2 heat eff and usually 1.3 or 1.4 except in very rare cases.

I saw a LOT of overheated Adders. I switched mine to run 1 ER PPC and 3x SSRM4 and was fine, and getting several kills and 400+ damage regularly. Not too bad for a totally unfamiliar and locked mech.

[Lucian Nostra]

I unfortunatly don't see the point behind some of the clan light loadouts.

Take for instance the Adder Prime with the fearsome punch of the PPCs nerfed it just runs so damn hot for a 20 point alpha that arcs 5 damage to two other locations.

Playing a support role is all you can do in that mech and it fails pretty hard at playing that support role.

I see the Kit Fox with the C arm being decent and the Adder with LRMs in PUGs.. but yeah... I can see a big need for PGI to come out with those chassis specific buffs.. like the Adder Prime removing the arcing damage and just planting 15 into the location shot. or let it generate less heat with ER-PPCs

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 13 June 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[Wispsy]

Right but there is not and probably will not be a single clan light mech worth taking in any way if winning is your goal...which is kind of the aim of the game...compared to taking a medium or a timberwolf.

[Bishop Steiner]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 13 June 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

I think this

I think 7 frakking second cooldown makes that less awesomely effective than it looks on paper. Since they decided against stream fire, I totally get the uber long cooldowns, but it also makes relying on them en masse as your primary.... risky, IMO, at best,.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fuggles, on 13 June 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

so kit fox vs adder, what are your thoughts? sounds like the kit fox is more popular?

having the Kit Fox- Charlie RA available seriously skewed the popularity. Because, let's face it, ECM still pretty much trumps everything. ECM AND 3x AMS AND Energy Slot? How can I jury rig that arm onto ALL my Clan mechs?!?!?!?!?!

Also the K-Fox has the ability to mount JJs, and stupidly high mount ballistic slots. I ran a UAC2 up there which was surprisingly effective at harassment and oppression, while using my triple AMS and ECM to protect my Fatties. Anything that got close, had to face the UAC and 3 Clan ER MLasers. While not the dedicated wrecking ball the Jenner is, as a combination, it was very very effective.

I found the Adder was good, but much less versatile. (But boy does it look awesome! Shame that dual ER PPC is all but unsustainable on it!..... hoping for a ballistic arm to balance things, maybe, in the future. UAC2 and ER PPC maybe)

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Right but there is not and probably will not be a single clan light mech worth taking in any way if winning is your goal...which is kind of the aim of the game...compared to taking a medium or a timberwolf.

depends on how you want to go about your "winning". Wolfpacks, well, maybe not. But there are tactics beside wolfpacks and poptarting. And for Light Sniping, they do just fine. Heavy Unit Support just fine. For Wispsy hit and run wrecking ball play, not so much.

[Wispsy]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

depends on how you want to go about your "winning". Wolfpacks, well, maybe not. But there are tactics beside wolfpacks and poptarting. And for Light Sniping, they do just fine. Heavy Unit Support just fine. For Wispsy hit and run wrecking ball play, not so much.

So they play like a medium mech, one of the weaker classes by far, except worse in every way...

Yes I would say that is not what you would pick to win with...no matter what roles you try and make up for it...one shot to its very slow moving body and it is dead...with less firepower by quite a bit. It is only 10kph slower then a Timberwolf. What other stats does it have that are anywhere near comparable?

[Bishop Steiner]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

So they play like a medium mech, one of the weaker classes by far, except worse in every way...

Yes I would say that is not what you would pick to win with...no matter what roles you try and make up for it...one shot to its very slow moving body and it is dead...with less firepower by quite a bit. It is only 10kph slower then a Timberwolf. What other stats does it have that are anywhere near comparable?

It's a good thing I learned 2 years ago to not worry about Wispsy view, lol. Especially since with 3333 it's not like we can elect to just take 6 timberwolves. But don't worry I have no intention of wasting either of our time trying to get you to look past your self imposed blinders. Yes, were know, the uber comp way is the ONLY correct way, and the rest of us are just bads cluttering your playing field.

Feel free, with Khobai and others to keep telling the rest of us how we are doing it wrong, and we will continue doing it wrong and having a lot of fun in the process while you guys keep "enjoying" running the same 3-4 mechs/builds for all eternity.

[Corbenik]

Ted Wayz, on 12 June 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

The IS has it all over the clans in the light category. The IS light's speed and mobility make the clan lights look like they are standing still. Scary sight watching 2 spiders and a jenner completely dismantle all the clan lights on our side.

Did not see a locust, firestarter or commando today, and the only ravens I saw got wrecked. But he above mentioned mechs looked extremely viable, and valuable, against the clans.

Had a match where a Jenner almost took 4 clans xD with mediums and a small lasers , he ended up killing 2 of the heavier mechs that were badly damaged with hit and run and JJ flying around like Superman. Then almost took out the remaining ones but due to one misstep he ended up cored . was thrilling edge of your seat match and it was a close game

[Tsig]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

I think 7 frakking second cooldown makes that less awesomely effective than it looks on paper. Since they decided against stream fire, I totally get the uber long cooldowns, but it also makes relying on them en masse as your primary.... risky, IMO, at best,.

I found a good amount of success by taking the arm SSRMs off and putting the Lasers back in. 5 ERMLs work great for that build...especially since they can poke at up to 900m

[Wispsy]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's a good thing I learned 2 years ago to not worry about Wispsy view, lol. Especially since with 3333 it's not like we can elect to just take 6 timberwolves. But don't worry I have no intention of wasting either of our time trying to get you to look past your self imposed blinders. Yes, were know, the uber comp way is the ONLY correct way, and the rest of us are just bads cluttering your playing field.

Feel free, with Khobai and others to keep telling the rest of us how we are doing it wrong, and we will continue doing it wrong and having a lot of fun in the process while you guys keep "enjoying" running the same 3-4 mechs/builds for all eternity.

Exactly...no reason to take them...unless forced to actually be able to play the game...I am not saying you are doing it wrong, what I am saying is there is no way for me to do it right as I usually play against the best shots whenever they are online...and 100kph is not even close to enough to make it in any way viable at all for high skill games.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I see a place for the Kit Fox taking on a similar role to the RVN-3L when a team is restricted to all Clan mechs. I do not see much of a place for the Adder unless a team is restricted to Clan mechs and has weight considerations that prevent it from bringing a medium.

In the current system we have (that is no tonnage or faction restrictions) your tonnage investment appears much safer with a faster IS light.

[Darian DelFord]

Something that I think deserves an honorable mention the role of the IS light being able to take out the assault class is even further cemented. The fatties turn so damn slow its not even funny. Unless their back is against a wall you will not take a point of damage. If I Jenner gets in the rear that assault mech is a goner for sure. IS fatties do not need to worry about that from the clan lights or mediums. It was truly laughable. Now I am sure as clanners improve their piloting it may get better, but not to much I do not think

[Koniving]

Lucian Nostra, on 13 June 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I unfortunatly don't see the point behind some of the clan light loadouts.

Take for instance the Adder Prime with the fearsome punch of the PPCs nerfed it just runs so damn hot for a 20 point alpha that arcs 5 damage to two other locations.

Playing a support role is all you can do in that mech and it fails pretty hard at playing that support role.

I see the Kit Fox with the C arm being decent and the Adder with LRMs in PUGs.. but yeah... I can see a big need for PGI to come out with those chassis specific buffs.. like the Adder Prime removing the arcing damage and just planting 15 into the location shot. or let it generate less heat with ER-PPCs

(For those confused by what you're about to read, I'm referring to lore when I chimed in here as to what the point was in the source material. I had just woken up when I wrote this one out so I didn't differentiate too well.)

In comparison... Most Inner Sphere lights have what equates to 128 to 176 armor, meanwhile the Adder has 230 (in comparison, the most armored lights the IS have available have 224 points of armor and those are the Jenner F and the Raven 4X; not exactly cream of the crop just very 'tanky').

Anything the Adder can run outclasses anything run by the I.S. in lore. But on both sides ACs were burst fire, PPCs were pinpoint, and the only thing that could compete with an ER PPC is a Gauss Rifle.

(Relating the armor differences in BT to issues with MWO and a concept to restore 'armor' as a meaningful concept in MWO)
But those anti-pinpoint measures aren't applied to the I.S. (yet; it sounds like they're using the Clans as a testing ground for it). Then there's that armor difference which also got forsaken in the game. Every 35 ton light is sporting 232 to 234 armor so the entire point is defeated (and 20 ton lights with equal protection to some 25, 30, 35, and 40 ton mechs are completely outclassed due to the armor limit of 138). Been saying, we need that armor concept. Now that we've got clan mechs in Smurfy I can start tacking them in for full numbers.

Also don't forget: The typical Jenners and typical Adders are supposed to be identical in speed. 97 kph.
[Completely about MWO now.]
Now I put in a comment about how the ER LL and LPL both outclass the ER PPC in direct damage (by almost 2 points), so I asked the direct damage be raised to 11. Reducing the heat, well that isn't much of an option. We'll have a repeat of why ghost heat was put in for the first place. Trading more heatsinks into the mech will help. Alternatively the targeting computers magically accelerate your shots. (They didn't on the test server because they weren't functional yet).

I personally went with an Ultra 10 and a single ER PPC; technically if the thresholds were done right no one would ever fire 2 ER PPCs at once anyway. Did pretty good with it (and twin ER PPCs) once I got cool run and heat containment unlocked. Once you get the elites you won't notice that ER PPC heat anymore. Seriously take an Inner Sphere light that you mastered, slap on 2 ER PPCs and tell me if you notice it?

Edited by Koniving, 13 June 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[qki]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

having the Kit Fox- Charlie RA available seriously skewed the popularity. Because, let's face it, ECM still pretty much trumps everything. ECM AND 3x AMS AND Energy Slot? How can I jury rig that arm onto ALL my Clan mechs?!?!?!?!?!

Put hand actuators on your dire wolf, and take an entire arm off the kit fox

[ToxinTractor]

Personally I love my kitfox. I actually love it way more then my puma which i found odd.

When it comes to driving it, I just dart around in a fight, you assist the brawlers or the LRM boats depending on your loadout. The base kitfox loadout is really nice to use as well considering the LBX and SRM combo are great for slicing internals. Tho I personally downgraded the large laser down to a medium and popped out the streaks for normal SRMs so i can have more freedom aiming them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 13 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

But those anti-pinpoint measures aren't applied to the I.S. (yet; it sounds like they're using the Clans as a testing ground for it).

Let us hope not. The Poptart/FLD plague can be easily tamed through other means, whereas the FLD centric nature of the IS not only fits the "lower tech" feel IMO better, but adds a nice balance between the two sides. Clans have more guns, IS has more focused damage.