121 replies to this topic

[0bsidion]

I like the kit fox. The omnipods makes it fairly flexible, and when I test drove my KF yesterday I really didn't find 97khp that inhibiting. It is described as being a long ranged fire support mech, and if played as a long range harasser it does a decent job. I got the best results from dual uac2s or dual lrm15s, and I had enough space left to add lasers to use when the ammo ran out or enemies got too close.

It requires some out of box thinking to play, and I don't think anyone is going to be calling it OP any time soon. That being said it can be set up to pack a bigger punch at a longer range than IS lights. Being able to use ECM and jump jets on all the configs is pretty sweet too.

Edited by 0bsidion, 13 June 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Wispsy]

Koniving, on 13 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

In comparison... Most Inner Sphere lights have what equates to 128 to 176 armor, meanwhile the Adder has 230 (in comparison, the most armored lights the IS have available have 224 points of armor and those are the Jenner F and the Raven 4X; not exactly cream of the crop just very 'tanky').

Anything the Adder can run outclasses anything run by the I.S. in lore. But on both sides ACs were burst fire, PPCs were pinpoint, and the only thing that could compete with an ER PPC is a Gauss Rifle.

But those anti-pinpoint measures aren't applied to the I.S. (yet; it sounds like they're using the Clans as a testing ground for it). Then there's that armor difference which also got forsaken in the game. Every 35 ton light is sporting 232 to 234 armor so the entire point is defeated (and 20 ton lights with equal protection to some 25, 30, 35, and 40 ton mechs are completely outclassed due to the armor limit of 138). Been saying, we need that armor concept. Now that we've got clan mechs in Smurfy I can start tacking them in for full numbers.

Also don't forget: The typical Jenners and typical Adders are supposed to be identical in speed. 97 kph.

Now I put in a comment about how the ER LL and LPL both outclass the ER PPC in direct damage (by almost 2 points), so I asked the direct damage be raised to 11. Reducing the heat, well that isn't much of an option. We'll have a repeat of why ghost heat was put in for the first place. Trading more heatsinks into the mech will help. Alternatively the targeting computers magically accelerate your shots. (They didn't on the test server because they weren't functional yet).

I personally went with an Ultra 10 and a single ER PPC; technically if the thresholds were done right no one would ever fire 2 ER PPCs at once anyway. Did pretty good with it (and twin ER PPCs) once I got cool run and heat containment unlocked. Once you get the elites you won't notice that ER PPC heat anymore. Seriously take an Inner Sphere light that you mastered, slap on 2 ER PPCs and tell me if you notice it?

You are so wrong...

My Jenner has 215 armour because I reduce it on the arms, my Ember has full.

The CERPPC is not better then using an inner sphere ppc, the heat tradeoff for pretty much the same damage (splash is nice but not helpful?) is not worth it by far. It does not matter how much firepower you have, it is WAY less then a medium mech and you are not fast enough to dodge so having enough armour to be 1shot leaves you...dead the moment somebody bothers to notice you.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Let us hope not. The Poptart/FLD plague can be easily tamed through other means, whereas the FLD centric nature of the IS not only fits the "lower tech" feel IMO better, but adds a nice balance between the two sides. Clans have more guns, IS has more focused damage.

Well in the sense of the autocannons (in my opinion the only place it is necessary), they can simply have significantly fewer shots per squeeze. Example, 1 shot for an AC/2 (Clans require 2). 2 shots for an AC/5 (Clans required ?? Was it 4 or 5?). 4 shots for the AC/10, 4 shots for the AC/20. (Ghost heat can be removed from AC/20 now). Since this pretty much buffs the AC/2 and AC/5 I don't think people will complain (other than myself).

That'll help alienate the "everyone uses only autocannons" tidbit to have more lasers, PPCs and Gauss. Gauss people are easy to kill. PPCs are hot. Lasers can be spread but need more attention and use. And autocannons will run colder with the split shot. It'd also be a real measure against poptarts.

Besides, when poptarts used Twin PPCs + Gauss, they were EASY to kill. Just walking bombs. And oh god they were slow! And ran super hot, reducing their frequency. So sure in a single shot they are more dangerous, but in the long run they're the kind of annoying mutts you kick to the curb because they're in your way. (Compared to now, with more armor, much colder, very frequent fire, reliable close range fire, etc.)

[Rando Slim]

Like I said before, the Adder could almost not suck if you get rid of the flamer to rid it of its heat problems. a twin ERPPC Cicada with just ten heat sinks and an xl-300 runs at 1.16 heat.......which is still pretty awful. So yea, the flamer is the culprit.

Also, as much as I hate competitive team meta, being that it just isn't fun, Wispsy is pretty much spot on. I WANT to like the clan lights, I will play them anyway for a challenge. But really you better have a few buddies with you who can help you and at least the Adder is only slightly viable as a mobile missile boat. But yea its lack of armor and speed is totally inadequate as soon as anything at all notices you. And as powerful as clan mech weaponry is you are dead in 1-2 shots almost without fail. God help you if an IS light or two finds you.

It also should be mentioned some of the maps will be really hard to play as a clan team. River City, Terra Therma, Caustic, and Alpine are all a total ballache in a Daishi or even a clan light because you just cant' move fast enough to avoid getting caught before you can rendezvous with your team.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 13 June 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Koniving]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

You are so wrong...

My Jenner has 215 armour because I reduce it on the arms, my Ember has full.

I probably didn't make it clear but I was talking about Battletech lore (using MWO's armor values for their tonnages rather than BT's so that people understand the ratio better).

Spoiler

MWO does NOT take LORE into account.

It allows max armor no matter what.

Now take Smurfy and look at stock armors. That's what 90% of all "Jenners" have. Now look at the Ember's stock armor, then the Firestarters? Notice a trend, almost all of them have 176.

Taken a look at the Victor and the Awesome?

Most Awesomes have 80 to 150+ more points of armor.

Know what made the Atlas so fearsome? Most 100 ton mechs didn't have near max armor.

Know why the Banshee's hardpoints needed so much inflating? Banshees channeled everything into speed and armor.

Know why the Cataphract 3D was inferior in a firefight against the Cataphract 2X and 4X? The fact that the Cataphract 3D had the least armor; over 150 points less (using MWO's double armor).

That's what I'm referring to. We have weapon hardpoints based on stock. We have engine limits loosely based on stock. What don't we have? We don't have armor based on stock with an allotment more to slap on.

Most of the Locusts and the Jenner have the same armor values. Locust was better for speed and dirt cheap, but awful for firepower. Jenner was better for firepower and its structural health kept it alive even when the armor failed it.

Here, the Locust is an easy kill and the Jenner is an unstoppable tank.

[Wispsy]

Great yeah lets balance the game on lore...that will make it fun for everybody playing...

[Koniving]

Scrotacus 42, on 13 June 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Like I said before, the Adder could almost not suck if you get rid of the flamer to rid it of its heat problems. a twin ERPPC Cicada with just ten heat sinks and an xl-300 runs at 1.16 heat.......which is still pretty awful. So yea, the flamer is the culprit.

Morbid curiosity. What would getting rid of the flamer do?
It's half a ton. No more DHS for removing it.
It's one slot, no extra space of meaning for getting rid of it. There's a fixed armor slot in the same spot so no extra DHS from that.
The flamer doesn't affect your cooling rate unless you use it. If you don't use it then it has no effect.
It's more feasible to have PGI make the Flamer worth something.

[DONTOR]

KFX-S FTW, 1 CERPPC, 2 CERMLs, 1 CECM, 2 CMGs, 4 JS, 1 ton MG ammo, 607 damage in the game i played.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Great yeah lets balance the game on lore...that will make it fun for everybody playing...

be a hell of a lot fun, it seems, for more people, than the stale uber-comp poptart MEta we have had to swallow for over a year.

Believe it or not, you comp guys are great for pointing out flaws for balancing purposes (assuming Devs pay attention) but you are horrible examples to set the "general public" gameplay around, and you are also, actually, in the extreme minority, playerbase wise.

Heck, most of you guys don't even seem to care about lore, hence have little attachment to the IP itself and will move on to "greener pastures" long before us misguided Lore Types will.

Obviously one cannot successfully translate lore and mechanics from a TT game to a VideoGame FPS environ, but the feel should be maintained, or there is no point licensing an IP in the first place.

DONTOR, on 13 June 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

KFX-S FTW, 1 CERPPC, 2 CERMLs, 1 CECM, 2 CMGs, 4 JS, 1 ton MG ammo, 607 damage in the game i played.

drop the mediums to smalls, and maybe 2 JJS, and get 3 AMS and ECM to boot. Only broke 500 in mine, though is had Mediums and no JJs.

[Koniving]

Psst. This is in response to this earlier post where I was clarifying that an Adder / Puma had a huge armor superiority over most light mechs in lore, and mentioned an armor concept I've been brewing for a few months. Then this specific post shelled out some examples of the armor concept which tries to maintain the lore differences between mech variants and their armor.

It's apparently becoming a popular read; once I get all the armor values of the Clan mechs stock I'll come up with a followup, crediting Buckminister, Gasoline, JWP, WaybadMojo, and a few others who assisted with or inspired the idea which turned a simple rule change into a huge game changer that eliminates the "every mech is the same with a new skin" issue that we have. I return you to this original post.

-----------

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Great yeah lets balance the game on lore...that will make it fun for everybody playing...

Lets take 128 armor. That's 4 tons.
Now add 3 tons as a new max.
Locust: Current max 138.
New max: 224 standard. 252 ferro.
Same for Jenner D.
Jenner F? 224 + 3 tons as the new max = 320 standard. 360 ferro.

Chain reaction through all mechs. Every mech gets more armor. But stock differences are preserved.
The difference between an Atlas (that starts with 608 armor) and a Locust (that starts with 128 armor) is 480 points (or one Awesome 8Q).
With this, whether it's 100% stock, or 100% maxed out, the armor difference between a Locust and an Atlas will always be 480 points.
The same would be true of a Jenner D and an Atlas.
A Commando (with 128 stock) and an Atlas.

Right now the armor difference at their current maxes between a Locust and an Atlas is 476. Making the Atlas feel weak and the Locust as if made of paper.
The difference between a Jenner D and an Atlas in MWO is 380. 100 points inferior for the Atlas.
The difference between a Commando 1-B and an Atlas is 438, again making the Atlas seem weak and the Commando out of paper (since with the armor concept the Commando would have as its new max 224 standard. 252 ferro. [compared to 176 now], but the Atlas's 480 points of armor stock and lore superiority would be maintained.]

The ratio between the Jenner D and the Jenner F, doesn't exist in MWO. But in lore it's 96 points; the Jenner F's armor is 96 points superior to the Jenner D who in turn gets better weapons.

Cataphract 3D and 4X? That is to say the best Cataphract at everything and the slowest one?
3D 352 points of armor. New max standard: 448 (higher than current max).
4X 434 points of armor. New max standard: 530.
82 points of difference.
Fun fact: The 4X is listed in lore as having 14 tons of armor. (432 is only 13.5 for noting it). So it'd be 17 tons or 544 standard armor.

At source: 3D is 11 tons of armor (352 std).
4X is 14 tons of armor (448 std).
96 points of difference. Preserved after the new maxes.

Now the 3D (Jumpjets and best weapons) versus the Cataphract 2x?
At stock 352 versus 416.
At max 448 versus 512. Suddenly that 2X with the crappy hardpoints became a little more appealing.

And you were saying?
It's not balancing by armor. It's applying stock armor as a determining factor for maximum armor.

The mechs with the best hardpoints almost always have the worst armor.
The mechs with the worst hardpoints almost always have the best armor.

The result? No more "useless" mechs that have bad hardpoints which are outperformed by everything else.

But wait, if a Locust and a Jenner have identical armor, why use a Jenner?
Structure health is not touched. Locust has 75, Jenner has 123. So even at identical armor, the Jenner will take more abuse.
(Find structure health by taking the TT max armor and adding 6 [for the 15 internal structure on the head to prevent instant headshots from Gauss Rifles]. Or you can find it by taking MWO's current max armor for a tonnage, dividing it by 2, then adding 6.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 June 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Wispsy]

Ok but the armour is not the main problem on clan lights...

[Rhaythe]

Clan lights, as far as I could tell yesterday, will not play the role IS lights will. Instead, they will be funneled into more of a harder-hitting escort that can bring more punch to the fight than their faster counterparts. This is going to play a big role when rule-of-threes goes live.

More guns, more damage. I'm surprised the FLD crowd doesn't like this.

[qki]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Believe it or not, you comp guys are great for pointing out flaws for balancing purposes (assuming Devs pay attention) but you are horrible examples to set the "general public" gameplay around, and you are also, actually, in the extreme minority, playerbase wise.

Heck, most of you guys don't even seem to care about lore, hence have little attachment to the IP itself and will move on to "greener pastures" long before us misguided Lore Types will.

They also have a very skewed view on what constitutes "skill".

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rhaythe, on 13 June 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Clan lights, as far as I could tell yesterday, will not play the role IS lights will. Instead, they will be funneled into more of a harder-hitting escort that can bring more punch to the fight than their faster counterparts. This is going to play a big role when rule-of-threes goes live.

More guns, more damage. I'm surprised the FLD crowd doesn't like this.

Except a pack of 3 Embers/Jenners eats 3 Adders/Kit Foxes alive. On top of that, if the lights get within range of our Poptart Overlord 3D's and Victors, they are pinpoint FLD'd in two shots. Because at 100kph with their size and armor...it's not going to be hard to hit them.

[Rhaythe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Except a pack of 3 Embers/Jenners eats 3 Adders/Kit Foxes alive. On top of that, if the lights get within range of our Poptart Overlord 3D's and Victors, they are pinpoint FLD'd in two shots. Because at 100kph with their size and armor...it's not going to be hard to hit them.

Yes, but again, that breaks the mentality of what I just said in the previous post. In my belief, if you're in a "dog pack" of 3 clan lights, you're doing it wrong. Go find something big and babysit. Clan lights are not going to be the solo warriors that IS lights can be.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Except a pack of 3 Embers/Jenners eats 3 Adders/Kit Foxes alive. On top of that, if the lights get within range of our Poptart Overlord 3D's and Victors, they are pinpoint FLD'd in two shots. Because at 100kph with their size and armor...it's not going to be hard to hit them.

I found very few IS Lights who wanted a second helping of my quad SSRM6 Adder.

(Which is good, since it was a full 7 seconds away! DOH! Though an Wolfpack of 3-4 of them, would pretty well end any fast Wolfpack. forthwith)

But no, IS LIghts are indeed the more versatile, which is good. We need the balance. There is nothing wrong with Clan Lights being best served as part of the main battle line/screening force. Our Meta overlords may disagree, but honestly, rude though it may sound, they can keep playing their same 4 builds and leave the rest of the game to the rest of us who want some diversity.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 June 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rhaythe, on 13 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Yes, but again, that breaks the mentality of what I just said in the previous post. In my belief, if you're in a "dog pack" of 3 clan lights, you're doing it wrong. Go find something big and babysit. Clan lights are not going to be the solo warriors that IS lights can be.

Well yeah? But what keeps Eglar and Proton from cresting the ridge and saying "Hmm, Dire Wolf and Kit Fox...I'll go ahead and drop the Kit Fox quickly, then kill his buddy while my friend the Ember runs around at 150kph, hitregging all of the non-FLD clan weapons like a champ"?

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

I found very few IS Lights who wanted a second helping of my quad SSRM6 Adder. (Which is good, since it was a full 7 seconds away! DOH! Though an Wolfpack of 3-4 of them, would pretty well end any fast Wolfpack. forthwith)

I don't know if it was PTR issues or what, but I ran around with near impunity in my Ember. Everything seemed to slide off me due to my speed, twisting and using cover.

Maybe I didn't run into a Streak Boat? But that seems unlikely.

[Koniving]

Wispsy, on 13 June 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Ok but the armour is not the main problem on clan lights...

It's damage spread and lack of speed. Or more specifically damage spread [not a concern as the ER PPC situation makes them kinda even; a simple weapon tweak would make it fair but more on that later] and everyone else being too fast.

(My long-windedness has flooded enough. Spoilered most of it.)

Spoiler

(With the armor concept and more armor, the mechs don't need to be as fast; a slight engine overhaul fixes this next issue. Take a Spider, Locust and Cicada. At stock what do they have in common? 129 kph. Fastest mechs in the game.

But that isn't preserved at all in MWO. [Mind you, the Spider at max only gains 2 points of armor and is still inferior to the 128 stock Locust in armor by 16 points; the Spider makes up for this in structure health, jumpjets, and bigger weapons to fill its fewer hardpoints.] The Locust goes faster and the Cicada goes `muuuuuuch` slower. This would need to change.

And so, engine caps are put a bit lower. In general every mech goes a bit slower, but in the long run the ones that are supposed to be fast will be and the ones that are supposed to be slow will be. Thusly tying in their speeds, too.

The 97 kph Jenner? New speed (no tweak) is 127 kph.
Much more manageable for the Adder to deal with and hit. But speed tweak is obscenely overdone so PGI will have to do something about it sooner or later. Percentages always cause problems in balancing.

On speed, seriously, only 1 or 2% of mechs in 3050 ever went above 150 kph. And with problems that are inherit with hit detection, reducing speed makes sense. Increasing speed only makes hit registration worse...

Bringing us back to damage. I had an Adder carrying twin UAC/10s. That's more than sufficient for brawling. Yes it's spread, but from what is said Clans are a testing ground for what they might apply similar stuff to Inner Sphere.

But if the concern is not being fast enough to get away?
Try this Kitfox. Walking LRM boat, super easy to see. And damn does it tank shots (with only the armor of a Spider). Clan mechs are going canon speeds at least. With the IS tied a little closer to home, don't think it'll be as hard as it may be now.

But alas... PGI has people that like yourself, believes doing anything by canon or lore isn't a good idea.

• So we don't have charge-up PPCs where ER PPCs have shorter charge up times and PPCs could shorten theirs by switching their field inhibitors off (at the risk of them blowing up in their face). And so those sharpshooting weapons became brawling weapons, completely alienating SRMs.
  
• SRMs weren't given the guidance they were supposed to have. Streaks and SRMs are identical, except that Streaks won't fire unless you can hit. SRMs will fire even if you don't have a lock. Streaks are not superior, they're actually inferior, as streaks don't track NARC'd targets. (SRMs required special ammunition that cost 3 times as much for that, so it wasn't totally as if SRMs outclassed streaks in everything. Ever wondered why the Inner Sphere didn't have a Streak 6 launcher? Their aging computer tech couldn't handle the calculations for whether 6 missiles would hit without margin of error).
  
• We didn't have burst fire ACs from the start, leading to oh so many poptarts and pinpoint issues (as well as range issues; it's not that bullets magically stop working at 540 meters, it's that the recoil of firing several saboted HEAP rounds would kick back and throw off any hope of hitting all rounds on target beyond that range; you'd still be able to get some of them on target well beyond that).

Thankfully with the Clans, PGI has finally listened.. And my 4 UAC/5 + LB-10 + LB-20 Dire Wolf wasn't so incredibly overpowered that no one stood a chance. That same thing with how the IS was set up... I'd probably walk out of that match with 9 kills and over 1,600 damage.

[Carrioncrows]

Koniving, on 13 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

...

Sorry I just quoted you here because I was rewatching my footage and spotted you as we went Timberwolf versus kitfox

http://www.twitch.tv...ows/b/537921712 @7mins in

Did you shutdown?, fall off your chair? or have to run for the phone?

Curious what happened there.

[Wispsy]

Koniving, on 13 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

It's damage spread and lack of speed. Or more specifically damage spread [not a concern as the ER PPC situation makes them kinda even; a simple weapon tweak would make it fair but more on that later] and everyone else being too fast.

(My long-windedness has flooded enough. Spoilered most of it.)

Spoiler

(With the armor concept and more armor, the mechs don't need to be as fast; a slight engine overhaul fixes this next issue. Take a Spider, Locust and Cicada. At stock what do they have in common? 129 kph. Fastest mechs in the game.

But that isn't preserved at all in MWO. [Mind you, the Spider at max only gains 2 points of armor and is still inferior to the 128 stock Locust in armor by 16 points; the Spider makes up for this in structure health, jumpjets, and bigger weapons to fill its fewer hardpoints.] The Locust goes faster and the Cicada goes `muuuuuuch` slower. This would need to change.

And so, engine caps are put a bit lower. In general every mech goes a bit slower, but in the long run the ones that are supposed to be fast will be and the ones that are supposed to be slow will be. Thusly tying in their speeds, too.

The 97 kph Jenner? New speed (no tweak) is 127 kph.
Much more manageable for the Adder to deal with and hit. But speed tweak is obscenely overdone so PGI will have to do something about it sooner or later. Percentages always cause problems in balancing.

On speed, seriously, only 1 or 2% of mechs in 3050 ever went above 150 kph. And with problems that are inherit with hit detection, reducing speed makes sense. Increasing speed only makes hit registration worse...

Bringing us back to damage. I had an Adder carrying twin UAC/10s. That's more than sufficient for brawling. Yes it's spread, but from what is said Clans are a testing ground for what they might apply similar stuff to Inner Sphere.

But if the concern is not being fast enough to get away?
Try this Kitfox. Walking LRM boat, super easy to see. And damn does it tank shots (with only the armor of a Spider). Clan mechs are going canon speeds at least. With the IS tied a little closer to home, don't think it'll be as hard as it may be now.

But alas... PGI has people that like yourself, believes doing anything by canon or lore isn't a good idea.

• So we don't have charge-up PPCs where ER PPCs have shorter charge up times and PPCs could shorten theirs by switching their field inhibitors off (at the risk of them blowing up in their face). And so those sharpshooting weapons became brawling weapons, completely alienating SRMs.
  
• SRMs weren't given the guidance they were supposed to have. Streaks and SRMs are identical, except that Streaks won't fire unless you can hit. SRMs will fire even if you don't have a lock. Streaks are not superior, they're actually inferior, as streaks don't track NARC'd targets. (SRMs required special ammunition that cost 3 times as much for that, so it wasn't totally as if SRMs outclassed streaks in everything. Ever wondered why the Inner Sphere didn't have a Streak 6 launcher? Their aging computer tech couldn't handle the calculations for whether 6 missiles would hit without margin of error).
  
• We didn't have burst fire ACs from the start, leading to oh so many poptarts and pinpoint issues (as well as range issues; it's not that bullets magically stop working at 540 meters, it's that the recoil of firing several saboted HEAP rounds would kick back and throw off any hope of hitting all rounds on target beyond that range; you'd still be able to get some of them on target well beyond that).

Thankfully with the Clans, PGI has finally listened.. And my 4 UAC/5 + LB-10 + LB-20 Dire Wolf wasn't so incredibly overpowered that no one stood a chance. That same thing with how the IS was set up... I'd probably walk out of that match with 9 kills and over 1,600 damage.

Ok but in this game if you run that slow sure lights can compete with lights but they are just random fodder for anybody with the patience to play a big mech (queue times)...the armour makes no difference, as the adjustments are small and they are all still 2 hits from death no matter how you look at it on any part of their body outside of the arms...