LocationI have no idea, they keep resetting CW map
Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:36 AM
Mostly I agree, some parts they are better some parts IS has edge that makes things interesting (FLD)
Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:
Inner Sphere has a decided edge in FLD weaponry, which as long as the Poptart Meta exists will be exacerbated even more.
...
1) Clans do have a Superior XL Engine. This is NOT as huge an advantage as the doomsayers wish to claim.
...
Clan XLs also can take a total of 3 critical hits, just like IS. Thus, losing both ST still kills a Clan Mech. And few have CT or Head weapon slots, anyhow. No Centy, Atlas, Stalker or Hunchy Zombies running around for the Clans.
However I do not agree with CXL, they are damn good.. sure, you can't go full zombie, but losing one torso is no biggie (At leastyuntil we get heat from engine crits, if ever... ) so I they maintain high speed and a big load of weapons longer.
Other than that, as I said elsewhere, I'd like their huge range advantage made a little less.... all that is not needed, things are interesting without a lot of them being long range sniping weaponry
All in all, clan tech was surprisingly balanced and fights fun. Then again, will it be so with non-package puggers after release... some minor tweaks and we might be good.
(And something exciting for the command console and TC... current solution is non-exciting quick and dirty solution, come on... )
The heat on Lasers is not as overly aggresive as you are making it out.
The Clan ERLL is only .5 more heat then the IS one hardly noticeable compared to its MASSIVE 890M Optimal range..
The Clan ERML is only 1 heat more then the IS ML, again negligible (compared to having the range of an IS LL).
Considering that you are only "paying" a small price in heat, and its not even a noticeable one, for 2-3 more damage, ya clan lasers are fine.
Also the longer the duration the easier your heat sinks can overcome it and "lessen" the blow from the heat. Ever notice that it is far easier to handle a Lasers heat then a weapon that spikes its heat? Heat sinks do start applying as soon as you start shooting.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:43 AM
RocketDog, on 13 June 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:
I was very pleasant surprised by how well all the weapons are balanced (at least to first order). The only thing that looks iffy to me is the Clan Streaks. The reload time is positively glacial... My first attempt at a Thor Streak boat didn't end well. Fired a salvo with promising results and was then beaten to pulp by my target before they'd reloaded.
yeah, but think about multiple 15 damage, autohit launchers, FLD, for 3 tons a pop? Cooldown was needed.
101011, on 13 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:
I would just like to point out that the only weapons which disallow the equipping of lower arm/hand actuators are Gauss Rifles, ERPPC's, and Autocannons, even UAC/2's. This excludes Machine Guns, LPL's, and ERLL's.
[/font]
EDIT: Otherwise, a very nice post. I am glad that there are some forumites who actually think things through.
Ah, good catch, was not 100% certain on that one! Was great to have a night where server stability was solid enough ( the first hiccup) to finally spend an entire evening dropping with Clan Ghost Bear! (If you don't know my alias, ask DONTOR. Not a huge secret, I just like being able to drop with some anonymity from time to time)
SirLANsalot, on 13 June 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:
The heat on Lasers is not as overly aggresive as you are making it out.
The Clan ERLL is only .5 more heat then the IS one hardly noticeable compared to its MASSIVE 890M Optimal range..
The Clan ERML is only 1 heat more then the IS ML, again negligible (compared to having the range of an IS LL).
Considering that you are only "paying" a small price in heat, and its not even a noticeable one, for 2-3 more damage, ya clan lasers are fine.
Also the longer the duration the easier your heat sinks can overcome it and "lessen" the blow from the heat. Ever notice that it is far easier to handle a Lasers heat then a weapon that spikes its heat? Heat sinks do start applying as soon as you start shooting.
You boat 6 or more Clan Lasers, that is 6 more heat on mediums. And ALL Clan Lasers, small, medium, large, Pulse or ER, have ghost heat. That difference does indeed become substantial, rather fast, in my experience.
LocationSector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, on a small blue-green planet orbiting a small, unregarded yellow sun.
Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:46 AM
Bilbo, on 13 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:
That depends on the mech. The Direwolf has only one arm across all three variants capable of equipping a lower arm actuator, no matter what it has equipped.
That is entirely because of PGI deciding to nerf the hell out of the Dire Wolf, and I seriously hope to see that changed.
There seems to be two extremes developed (shocking that, right?) in regards the Clans.
One, is the DOA, too limited, gonna suck crowd, the other is the hand wringing, OP, obsoleting everything, Buff the Inner Sphere NOW crowd.
Well. From what I have seen, BOTH sides are (mostly) wrong. There will certainly be balance issues (this IS MWO, afterall, lol), but not near to the degree of the handwringing.
Firstly, this is pointed toward Casual Matchmaking, as we don't have enough info to really prognosticate into CW, though, I certainly hope the Clans have a slight edge there, or they are not the Clans.
MatchMaking:
We are soon to see 3/3/3/3 MM, as well as 1 team per side balancing. One of the stretch goals that will be seen also is "Clan Matching". If your team has a Clan Heavy, if at all possible, the other team will have one, also. So in Casual Play, no team should be imbalanced or weighted against with Clan Mechs being a deciding factor.
Weapons Balance:
FLD alphas is the deciding factor in this game.
Spoiler
Clan AC are now DoT. Burst fire, thus not pinpoint precise. A Boomjager is capable of landing, on average much more telling damage with 2 IS AC20, than a Clan Mech with 2-3 Clan UAC20s, because of the Burst Mechanic, and crippling Ghost Heat.
Clan Lasers have extremely long beam duration and are ALL affected by Ghost Heat. Conversely they do have massively superior range, and slightly better damage, and usually much higher heat. This heat is made worse by long beam durations before Cooldown can begin.
Clan Long Range Missiles are stream fire and easily picked off by AMS. Currently they also have the same minimum range as the IS counterparts (though that is being worked on)
Clan LB-X AC have the same damage spread as IS, SRMs likewise spread, and the SSRMs have insanely long cooldowns. Clans do have a Superior XL Engine.
The only serious FLD weapon Clans have is the ER PPC and the Gauss. The ER PPC, like the IS version, is hot as all get out, so more than 2 are rarely effective. And they don't have FLD Ballistics to sync with them. The Gauss is still working with it's charge mechanic, and the Devs have added a sensible Mechanism that one cannot charge more than 2 at a time. Plus the only mechs capable of mounting more than 2 are so slow and lumbering as to fall easy prey to Light Mechs.
Inner Sphere has a decided edge in FLD weaponry, which as long as the Poptart Meta exists will be exacerbated even more.
Chassis Balance:
1) Clans do have a Superior XL Engine. This is NOT as huge an advantage as the doomsayers wish to claim.
Spoiler
For one, most of the recent IS Mechs have vastly superior Hitbox design. While I found very few egregious HitBoxes on the Clan Mechs (the CT of the Direwolf and maybe the Legs on the Summoner), I also found no "Great" ones, either. The have no Mechs with massive Arms that absorb fire and protect their side torsos (Shadowhawk, Victor, Highlander, Griffin, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Centurion, Firestarter, etc). So twisting is much less effective in a Clan Mech.
Also, many have their firepower just as hobbled, and usually many, more so, than IS MEchs by large Box Launchers that add to torso target profiles.
Clan XLs also can take a total of 3 critical hits, just like IS. Thus, losing both ST still kills a Clan Mech. And few have CT or Head weapon slots, anyhow. No Centy, Atlas, Stalker or Hunchy Zombies running around for the Clans.
On the pro side, Clan Mechs can indeed increase their armor, which means many previously claimed DOA mechs are viable, and have proven very effective when used in their intended roles. One of the most heavily decried as DOA was the Nova, which most testers found to be one of the hidden gems of the test.
2) Because of most weapons requiring lock-ons or using a DoT Mechanic, Clan Mechs, in General, must STARE down their opponents. This too, increases overall vulnerability. You can say "PPC" but again, heat makes that less of a catchall than you would think.
3) Arm reflex. Most Clan Mechs have ZERO lateral arm movement. Any large Weapons, like ER Large, ER PPC, Large ACs, etc, automatically removes the Lower arm Actuator. So they have the ability to track faster targets, akin to a Jenner, Stalker or Jagermech.
Add to this, overall Clan Mech agility was not especially noteworthy, and they will have a harder time, in general bringing that fire power to bear.
4) Engine Caps. Light Mechs are not capable of the solo sniper role, or high speed, run across the open plains and survive, wolfpacks, of the IS versions. The current available ones will top out at 107 AFTER Speed Tweak. Future one will be faster, but still lack a lot of the ability to customize and tweak that extra ton or two, to "Optimize" for competitive play.
And Mechs that start slow? Just ask most Dire Wolf pilots how they felt about mobile battles or large maps. 53 kph gets old real fast.
In summary, overall, as best as can be seen in a short window, on Chassis that are NOT yet in their June 17th release form, it appears PGI did a surprisingly good job of balancing the "Give and Take" of Clan Chassis and Weapons. Only time will give the full picture, and there are bound to be some outliers, but in general, most of the "whooping and hollering" appears to be much ado about nothing.
I am curious, OBJECTIVELY, what the communities thoughts are?
This is Bishop Steiner, your resident extremely jaded, not-so-White Knight, signing off.
Bleh, w-anker is against the TOS. I like your point, Bishop. Always keeping an open mind and I appreciate that. You're my boy, Blue!!!
Personally, from my testing yesterday using both my Madcat AND a few IS chassis, I definitely think they're balanced. I feel that, even in the current state, a 12v12 of clans vs IS would be viable combat for both sides simply due to the 'different, not better' nature of Clan technology in their current iteration.
Although, I don't think we'll see Clan vs IS matchmaking anytime soon purely due to playerbase numbers being small. Queue times are already getting longer and longer as-is. Throw that in with whatever this "ELO" system they claim to be in the game is, 3-3-3-3, and Clan vs IS? I very seriously doubt it, but going back a few steps; I don't mind the mixed teams.
From what I've seen and done myself, Clan weaponry feels good. I tried every weapon at least once, and they all feel very niche. I definitely think that the CERMLs are a little too good - the beam duration isn't much longer, and absolutely crush the IS ML - what is, imo, the current "best" weapon in the game on a tonnage to effectiveness basis.
Clan ACs feel great. The burst fire mechanic is good. I could see them doing it for IS, but I'd say only the AC/20 and future large-caliber UACs. Keep the others the way they are now, for the different - not better - mentality.
Clan LRMs have a different flight path than IS LRMs, and seem to be overall slightly worse due to the stippled fire and AMS wrecking them.
Clan Streaks (6s in particular) aren't nearly the instant death in a can everyone thought they'd be.
Chassis wise, they ALL seem viable, with the Puma and Thor seeming to be the lowest of the bunch. The Stormcrow, Madcat, and Kit Fox are the top of the 8 right now in my opinion, purely due to each of their sets of versatility.
The Thor isn't 'bad', just outperformed by the Madcat in most ways.
The Puma isn't bad, either. I think people just need to play it like a small Medium instead of a Light - I don't think we'll see much of the Clan scouting stuff until we get like a Dasher/Fire Moth or something.
I think overall, though, the DPS over FLD mechanics the Clans are using makes them feel "Clan".. you know? they're meant to be these vigorous fighters that charge headfirst into battle, and that idea of them needing to be exposed for prolong periods of time to dish their damage feels great. They're definitely not weak, nor too strong. The Mechs, with a few exceptions in their geometry I don't like (Madcat legs are too chunky, that kinda deal) are good.
Clan Long Range Missiles are stream fire and easily picked off by AMS
i disagree with this one. we played private games and we tested the clrms - dual ams with module on summoner is useless against clrms firing from 600 ish m --- that compared with dual ams on IS like the jester without any enhancement in similar situation...
as for the rest - good points but i think it is way too early to say anything...a lot of changes will come.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:12 AM
smokefield, on 13 June 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:
i disagree with this one. we played private games and we tested the clrms - dual ams with module on summoner is useless against clrms firing from 600 ish m --- that compared with dual ams on IS like the jester without any enhancement in similar situation...
as for the rest - good points but i think it is way too early to say anything...a lot of changes will come.
Really? I tested it firing off a stream of 20 from my Summoner multiple time, and the moment they came within the overlap of 2 other GBs running single AMS each, they were gone. In a flash.
And my triple AMS Kit Fox was never hit by a single LRM.
Really? I tested it firing off a stream of 20 from my Summoner multiple time, and the moment they came within the overlap of 2 other GBs running single AMS each, they were gone. In a flash.
And my triple AMS Kit Fox was never hit by a single LRM.
Triple AMS Kit Fox? Man, I'm out of the loop on this stuff now, apparently. PGI really really doesn't like missiles, apparently.
Triple AMS Kit Fox? Man, I'm out of the loop on this stuff now, apparently. PGI really really doesn't like missiles, apparently.
Triple AMS and ECM Kit Fox- the C variant arm pod that allows for this was one of the biggest surprises in the whole sneak peek. (Because it's an arm pod, any Kit Fox variant can suddenly have 3x AMS and ECM.)
Bishop, I think one thing you forgot to mention in your post is how much it kind of sucks that last night was just a test...and now we have to wait until next Tuesday to have our cool new toys back!
C.Variant has had 3x AMS since the TRO 3050 was released in oh..... 1990?
AND ecm. And while the C variant is not present, the Charlie RA omnipod is, and you can build a nasty support machine, that still has 2 energy, 1 missile, 2 ballistic hardpoints and jump jets (using the S variant as base).
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:34 AM
qki, on 13 June 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:
AND ecm. And while the C variant is not present, the Charlie RA omnipod is, and you can build a nasty support machine, that still has 2 energy, 1 missile, 2 ballistic hardpoints and jump jets (using the S variant as base).
I ran mine with 2 ballistic, 3 energy, but yup, you can do a fair bit. Am considering running it with 1-2 JJ (hard to lose the armor though), 1 ER PPC, 2 ER SMall, 2 MG, 3 AMS and ECM on the 17th. Would look at mediums, but might need those tons for JJs.
Technoviking, on 13 June 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:
Catch you in Steiner Scout Mech?
*Sets Throttle to 2/5ths*
Silly boy, this Steiner runs a Griffin. Fatties are for people who can't pilot!
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 June 2014 - 11:34 AM.
For me though it sounds odd to say is that the ERLasers gave me a rather satisfied feeling while at the same time they felt off in several games because of the beam duration. I hope they consider lowering them by a little maybe .1-.15, and I would like to see the pulse lasers lowered at least another .15 maybe .2
I only tried out the Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, and Stormcrow.
--The Timber Wolf felt great, and I might even say that it was the best feeling version of the mech I have played in any game.
--The Dire Wolf never felt right the entire time I used it, and I never found a build that I really liked. With time I think it might work out if I can find a build I like.
--The Warhawk felt a little hot, but I didn't really tweak it much. The ERPPCs were definatly hot, and I'm not sold on the damage spread yet in particular when some of the damage magically disappears.
--The Stormcrow was plain simple fun, and I think I'm in love.
The ACs look great and sounded great, but much like I always assumed when people were asking for burst fire I find them highly obnoxious to be hit by. I hope they can find a way to tweak them a bit to lesson that annoyance.
Clan LRMs looked and sounded awesome, but holy crap does AMS eat them alive.
Overall, I was pretty happy with the Clan mechs, but I feel the IS mechs may still have a fairly strong advantage over them, but we will have to see once they are fully released and out in the wild.
C.Variant has had 3x AMS since the TRO 3050 was released in oh..... 1990?
Pygar, on 13 June 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:
Triple AMS and ECM Kit Fox- the C variant arm pod that allows for this was one of the biggest surprises in the whole sneak peek. (Because it's an arm pod, any Kit Fox variant can suddenly have 3x AMS and ECM.)
I haven't logged into MWO in like 3 weeks so I haven't a clue as to what is going on with anything. Most of the CI guys were on the test server last night going nuts with the Clans. As to the TRO, I never messed with the dirty clan stuff so, aside from me loving how the Hellbringer, Vulture, Summoner, and Stone Rhino look, I haven't much an idea of what is going on with the Clan mechs. Love the weapon power, though.
3
Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:
