93 replies to this topic

[fatcat01]

It has occurred to me that any submerged parts of a 'mech should be largely immune to damage. Any projectile weapons are going to explode or fragment upon impact with the surface, or maybe even skip off. Laser weapons will lose large amounts of energy burning through the water. I would say anything deeper than 10ft would probably protect you from the majority of damage.

This idea came to me after watching a mythbusters episode where they try shooting various guns into a pool; none of them got more than a few feet.

It would be interesting of you could set your missiles to do a 'slow drop' into the water with a delayed detonation in order to cause pressure wave damage.

[aRottenKomquat]

Lasers would be more effective through water than particle/projectile weapons, but power would still drop off with distance. The power loss would probably depend on the laser's frequency/color.

Now anything high-explosive (like an autocannon or missile detonation) should still do a fair amount of damage. Water transmits concussive forces very well. It might not be as bad as a direct hit though.

No idea if MWO will take any of that into consideration. But that's the fun thing about BattleTech, it's science fiction with a strong grounding in real physics so you can speculate on this stuff.

Edited by aRottenKomquat, 21 June 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Depth charge missile?..



Also on water, don't forget that the surface of the water would make light bend and diffract the beam, making it lose accuracy as well under water.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 21 June 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Alistair Steiner]

Well, in other MechWarrior games, your energy weapons (sans PPC) were fully functional underwater. But I can see it with MGs and maybe even ACs. It was interesting to see said episode and the .50 cal was totally stopped by the water. Interesting stuff. But yeah, lasers wouldn't be affected, at least as far as MechWarrior physics are concerned (headshotted a Mad Cat with a Micro Heavy Laser from an Elemental (underwater so the heat wouldn't kill me) in Pirate's Moon Instant Action, actually).

Edited by Alistair Steiner, 21 June 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[evil713]

ok 1, any laser capable of melting tons of armor is going to be defeated by 2 meters of water.

2. a shell the size of a buick traveling at just under the speed of sound also wont be stoped by 2 meters of water.

you get deeper than that, maybe.

[Blastkowitz]

It would be neat to see steam rise from the lasers hitting the water or when the mechs enter the water; depending on their current heat rating of course. I am assuming that mechs in water will cool faster in MWO.

Edited by Blastkowitz, 21 June 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Steven Dixon]

I'm a big fan of BT, but I'm not really sure how strong its grounding in physics is, after all larger cannon shells almost always have longer ranges not shorter ones. I do wonder how they will treat water, I imagine it will react to bullets in the same way as Crysis does (I'm not sure they will bother changing this).

Edited by Steven Dixon, 21 June 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Lyteros]

tabletop rules say if you stand in water up to your hips its treatet as partial cover (like a building, or mountain) and everything that "would hit" your legs is nullified because of the cover.

How exactly they implement it here is another story.

[Okami Ryu]

Yes at the masses the shells are water won't offer much resistance and that is not even including gauss rifles into the equation

[Waverider]

fatcat01, on 21 June 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

It has occurred to me that any submerged parts of a 'mech should be largely immune to damage. Any projectile weapons are going to explode or fragment upon impact with the surface, or maybe even skip off. Laser weapons will lose large amounts of energy burning through the water. I would say anything deeper than 10ft would probably protect you from the majority of damage.

This idea came to me after watching a mythbusters episode where they try shooting various guns into a pool; none of them got more than a few feet.

It would be interesting of you could set your missiles to do a 'slow drop' into the water with a delayed detonation in order to cause pressure wave damage.

There is, already, a type of ammunition that does not loose to much energy when hits water. It is limited by the angle of impact in the surface but it is not very different from the golf ball solution. The lasers would lost a lot anyway.

[WardenWolf]

You might be surprised how much force water pushes back against something entering it. I recommend looking over the info from that MythBusters episode, if anyone is skeptical.

Lasers fired from above water into it would not do well, but fired under water... well, the old MW games at least allowed that. I also remember parts of MW2 where a mech was retrofitted with torpedoes in place of missiles for an underwater mission - and I think that was TT canon.

[mrcarlton]

Its probably a moot point. Water is likely never going to be above your feet and calves at most. But from a purely realism standpoint water would provide excellent protection.

I can't imagine the devs adding chest high water, or underwater in the foreseeable future. Although the prospect of a swamp or a flooded jungle setting does sound pretty Awesome_TM.

[Myshal]

evil713, on 21 June 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

ok 1, any laser capable of melting tons of armor is going to be defeated by 2 meters of water.

2. a shell the size of a buick traveling at just under the speed of sound also wont be stoped by 2 meters of water.

you get deeper than that, maybe.

First, physics will tell you that a larger round will meet more resistance from the water and have less of an effect. Second, water is a good conductor of electricity, but not of heat. Lasers rely on heat for their damage and the water would absorb it greedily.

[CCC Dober]

Upper end of the scale is the (Heavy) Gauss Rifle. You can't stop that thing with just a couple meters of water. The kinetic energy is off the scale. It'd be unfair to gimp all other weapons and leave it out. Just build a Gauss boat and sit crouched/submerged in the water -> exploit No.1 ... grrrreat idea, right? >.>

[IRaigothI]

The larger the projectile, the more area it covers, which means that the faster it hits the water, the more resistance its going to encounter.

In that mythbusters episode, the 50 cal sniper rifle actually penetrated the water the least because of the speed and size of the projectile.

Basically, look at it this way.

You would do more damage firing off a needle into the water, than you would a bowling ball, because the needle would encounter less resistance.

[Blastkowitz]

mrcarlton, on 21 June 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I can't imagine the devs adding chest high water, or underwater in the foreseeable future. Although the prospect of a swamp or a flooded jungle setting does sound pretty Awesome_TM.

That would be a very cool map to play.

[RogueFox]

WardenWolf, on 21 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

You might be surprised how much force water pushes back against something entering it. I recommend looking over the info from that MythBusters episode, if anyone is skeptical.

Lasers fired from above water into it would not do well, but fired under water... well, the old MW games at least allowed that. I also remember parts of MW2 where a mech was retrofitted with torpedoes in place of missiles for an underwater mission - and I think that was TT canon.

Well from a physics standpoint the water is going to hit the shell as hard as the shell hits it, that is why the shell will fragment. Water is also a great absorber of heat so the lasers will also but significantly reduced in damage. It will be fun to see how the Devs use water from a tactical standpoint.

[BlindProphet]

CCC Dober, on 21 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Upper end of the scale is the (Heavy) Gauss Rifle. You can't stop that thing with just a couple meters of water. The kinetic energy is off the scale. It'd be unfair to gimp all other weapons and leave it out. Just build a Gauss boat and sit crouched/submerged in the water -> exploit No.1 ... grrrreat idea, right? >.>

Heh...If you think how bad water stops projectiles is bad try taking a look at sand. Only takes a few inches of it to stop a round. And within those few inches the round is pretty much mangled.

[CCC Dober]

blindprophet, on 21 June 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Heh...If you think how bad water stops projectiles is bad try taking a look at sand. Only takes a few inches of it to stop a round. And within those few inches the round is pretty much mangled.

Tell that to the Iraqi T55s that got hammered THROUGH the sand dunes by 120mm APFSDS. Think on that ...

[Deathz Jester]

So... if I have a water shield on my mech, i cant be touched?