524 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Spades Kincaid, on 14 June 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I'd just like to know, what about the IS mechs that -don't- carry PPFLD?

We already know PPFLD dominates IS vs IS play.

If PPFLD is so crucial to keeping IS balanced vs Clans; what about non-meta IS mechs? Been dealing with a PPFLD meta for a long time. Now you're telling me that dominance should remain true -and- you need PPFLD to be 'balanced' against clan mechs as well.

Not all IS mechs are PPFLD. If PPFLD is so necessary, that's a problem.

--------

Oddly, the "it would make things too homogeneous and stale" was an often heard argument against AC burst and PPC dmg arc'ing for IS before the clans test. Yet, all I've been reading is raves about how much fun the clans were to play with that 'homogenized' change. Yet to see a single post saying the clan mechs were stale and boring to play because of it.

it is fun, because it adds a noticeable difference, visually and playwise between the clans and inner sphere. Once it becomes universal, that difference is gone, and once the new wears off, so too the variety, which, I believe is quoted to be the "spice of life"?

[LawDawg]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Of everyone who did the PTS, I've yet to see a dissenting opinion of burst-fire autocannons. This was used to balance against the IS because of clan-weapon lower weight and double-tap capability.

That said, I think IS auto-cannons should get a similar workup, but adjusted to keep them slightly better for their weight.

My solution is simple:
Have the IS Autocannon projectiles be 100m/s (or more) faster than their clan Ultra counterparts. (which I think is already the case, at least in the 20's department)

Have larger bore sizes for IS weapons. (Fits the weight increase, right!?)
Weapon----CLAN----IS
(U)AC20------5--------3 (Shells)
(U)AC10------3--------2
(U)AC5--------3-------2
(U)AC2--------2-------1


This would better allow for the straight brawl-y fun we had in the PTS, while keeping the IS Autocannons better at concentrating damage to off-set their weight and size disadvantage.

(And would also severely cripple much of the poptart meta, along with the JJ/legdmg adjustments.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is my hope that this would be merely a stopgap measure, on PGI's way to making individual variants of weapons. (Different manufacturers: different characteristics.)

Example: AC20
Chemjet 185 = 2 Shells at 700m/s
Pontiac 100 = 3 Shells at 900m/s
Luxor Devastator-20 = 10 Shells at 1400m/s
And so on, and so forth. (You could even make them faction specific for CW)

Each would have advantages and disadvantages. (For a visual demonstration, look for Koniving's video, he put words into pretty film.)

Dude, obviously not seeing the Clan mechs malfunctions. Annnnnnnnnnnnd as I have posted in a few threads, PGI has already said, these PTS will NOT represent the 17th launch. So Weapons you know them MAY change.

Again thank you for buying packages/premium time/ clans packs /and Golds.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Tell you what man, sorry to be snappish, but how about we just have all our mechs duel with papercuts at 20 meters?

Compared to 3 shotting anything under 80 tons...that might just be pleasant.

I don't want CoD:3050, which is pretty much what the combination of magical convergence and frontloaded weaponry have caused.

The Clan PTS showed how different the game can be with spread weaponry, and I found it to be much better.


But I guess it is safe to say we'll never agree on that.

[Hastur Azargo]

Trust me, a meta poptart knows very well that his pinpoint alpha's favorite food is a medium, and they will try to target you even in a group. Yes, you can still engage targets that have already engaged someone else, but that isn't a good argument in favor of multiple weapons one-click-hitting same location, and IMO, nothing is.

I very much support OP's point about substitution of IS one-shot cannons with burst fire, why there have been many topics detailing how there can be different models of same class ACs, with different number of shells per burst and different rate of fire, but same overall DPS.

Frankly, I don't think IS burst-fire ACs gonna happen, but I do hope that some solution to several weapons simultaneously hitting same point problem comes around eventually.

[Spades Kincaid]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

it is fun, because it adds a noticeable difference, visually and playwise between the clans and inner sphere. Once it becomes universal, that difference is gone, and once the new wears off, so too the variety, which, I believe is quoted to be the "spice of life"?

But you're playing without it in a clan mech, and having fun. In fact, by many accounts more fun than ever. In part for the very reason -of- that change according to many (less PPFLD flying around). Apparently there's still enough variety in your clan mech to enjoy it. If we were to believe all the strident statements before, that was impossible. You'd have found it boring and stale to play your clan mech. That's what people stated it would be to play without it, just as you are now. Yet that hasn't proved to be the case has it? Clan mech play was spicy and lively.

Also, you didn't answer the primary question. If PPFLD is so crucial to IS vs Clan balance, where do the non-meta IS mechs fit in?

Because if PPFLD is so important to IS vs Clan balance, then all you've done is make Clan vs IS meta. And IS non-meta is still left lacking.

[DONTOR]

Very good idea!

[Hastur Azargo]

BTW, an excerpt from Sarna

"Caliber is fluff for the size of the barrel that the shell or shells are fired from and no standard caliber has been set for any of the classes of Autocannon. Autocannon in a class vary by manufacturer and model. With the fluffed number of shells and caliber being specified, no Autocannon has been specified to be one shell fired for each "round" or burst of fire. Probable exceptions are the 185 mm ChemJet Gun Autocannon/20 mounted on the Demolisher combat vehicle and Monitor Surface vessel or the 203 mm Ultra Autocannon/20 on the Cauldron Born A BattleMech."

Is such variety just a dream? Idk, some dreams did come true when we dropped into that PTS a day ago...

[Hobo Dan]

I my humble opinion, burst fire for IS will make this game better.

Make it happen (it should have been this way all along) and then balance the IS and Clan.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 14 June 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Compared to 3 shotting anything under 80 tons...that might just be pleasant.

I don't want CoD:3050, which is pretty much what the combination of magical convergence and frontloaded weaponry have caused.

The Clan PTS showed how different the game can be with spread weaponry, and I found it to be much better.


But I guess it is safe to say we'll never agree on that.

if you are 3 shotting everything under 80 tons, you either brought friends or need to stop playing against the Underhive.

You 1-2 0r 3 shot my Griffin, Shad or Ember I was asleep at the wheel or did something dumb and deserved to die.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

if you are 3 shotting everything under 80 tons, you either brought friends or need to stop playing against the Underhive.

You 1-2 0r 3 shot my Griffin, Shad or Ember I was asleep at the wheel or did something dumb and deserved to die.

Patience, my friend. They have to stare at you to fire. You use that time to blow their ST out. CTF has 90 total armor plus structure. 3 shots puts that down assuming you hit the RT every time, not impossible.

Meds have some favourable hitboxes which makes that harder to do. But my BJ only has 66 total side torso structure+armor, 3 shots to kill, unless there's a crit. That could bring it to 2.

FLD kills best.

[MischiefSC]

I've been pushing burst fire ACs for over a year. FLD weapon designs pretty much destroy most build concepts and have created a lot of the issues we've had with the game from PPCs to poptarts.

The issue is that it's the only 'advantage' the IS has over the Clans at this point and it's not a whole lot except for a small handful of mechs. The current meta game design going forward is going to be IS needing to be poptarts or peak meta builds, and the Clans taking... pretty much whatever they want. Any other combo is going to be horribly one sided. I get that there's going to be people saying how they take their QuickDraw to the PTS and killed all 12 enemy Clan mechs with their MPL build and they do that all the time but reality says otherwise.

The real question is, why in the world would anyone play IS other than nostalgia and giggles?

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 14 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Patience, my friend. They have to stare at you to fire. You use that time to blow their ST out. CTF has 90 total armor plus structure. 3 shots puts that down assuming you hit the RT every time, not impossible.

Meds have some favourable hitboxes which makes that harder to do. But my BJ only has 66 total side torso structure+armor, 3 shots to kill, unless there's a crit. That could bring it to 2.

FLD kills best.

It does. The disparity doesn't have to be so extreme though. And the consequences for failed dFLD attacks should leave you opèn for counter attack.

It's like you wanting to have a Rapier and Battle Axe act through the same mechanic.

DoT is like the rapier is a lot faster, or agile, and used by an expert, the deadlier weapon. But requires more precision, concentration and focus.

FLD is the battleaxe. You land the blow, it's utterly devastating. But if you miss it, you should be vulnerable while you try to recover. Right now, FLD is a little too stacked in favor...but it's funny, you mention any sort of nerf to it, save absolute removal, and suddenly it's nuked and useless. Well, it it's THAT OP; it can't be made useless THAT easily.

And if it's NOT that OP, then there is no reason it cannot be tweaked to work in accord with DoT.

So which is it, so OP it cannot be redeemed, or on the precarious balance where a merely increasing cooldown makes it totally useless? Because it cannot, realistically, be both.

And you are right, we will not agree. I prefer to have both the Axe and the Rapier in game. The Machine Gun and the Bazooka. If FLD weapons have long cooldowns, it's not an egregious weakness that makes them useless..... it's a balancer that makes boating and relying on them foolish. And because of that, smart players would still use them, but also use a lot more of those SRMs and Lasers that Btech mechs usually carried with them for a reason.

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I've been pushing burst fire ACs for over a year. FLD weapon designs pretty much destroy most build concepts and have created a lot of the issues we've had with the game from PPCs to poptarts.

The issue is that it's the only 'advantage' the IS has over the Clans at this point and it's not a whole lot except for a small handful of mechs. The current meta game design going forward is going to be IS needing to be poptarts or peak meta builds, and the Clans taking... pretty much whatever they want. Any other combo is going to be horribly one sided. I get that there's going to be people saying how they take their QuickDraw to the PTS and killed all 12 enemy Clan mechs with their MPL build and they do that all the time but reality says otherwise.

The real question is, why in the world would anyone play IS other than nostalgia and giggles?

Because rumors of the Clans OP-ness have been greatly exaggerated.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Because rumors of the Clans OP-ness have been greatly exaggerated.

Fun is OP too, Bish.

Please, do me a favor. Currently I'm banking cash to buy several Clan chassis for cbills when they come out. I'm off to play other games until November/December, when it's all out. While I'm gone, please be one of the first ones to be honest.

I get that right now you're loving the Clan mechs. You're having fun, probably more fun than you've had in MW:O in a long time. You're positive, your take on everything is positive.

Later, when things start to mellow out and you're a little more realistic about it, try to be one of the reasonable guys. For IS to compete they need to hump the meta, the same stale meta that everyone has been hating for a year. Which one is the Clan Dragon, Quickdraw, Awesome, Commando?

The average Clan mech is better than the average IS mech. A peak meta poptart IS mech can keep up with the current non-peak Clan mechs. Is that really the balance that's going to populate half the game with IS mechs?

There's a difference between 'better' and 'op'. Better isn't just about field performance; it's about enjoyability. Clan mechs let you play a wide range of builds and still be reasonably competitive - that's something IS mechs can't do.

So when people complain about how unbalanced it is, please listen. After Tuesday, obviously. When you see the population of IS mechs fade after the next 2 weeks, please don't blow it off. Don't be the guy making excuses for why the 11 heat ERPPC is perfectly balanced and everyone just needs to 'adapt to the new tactics'.

Then, when all that's done, tell me how we're going to populate IS vs Clan CW with only a handful of people enjoying playing IS mechs.

[Creovex]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

A: They would be diverse: IS would have fewer shells at faster speed. That appeals to a playstyle similar to what they have, without the problem I'm going to repeat in "B."

B: "A medium mech in the current live server, trying to do anything other than snipe is generally a death sentence. (Get seen, eat 30 point alpha to one torso... If you get that 30pt alpha in the back of either torso, your fighting life has significantly shortened, because even if you kept the torso, the next graze by anything would remove it.)

Pin point surgery is bad for everyone, but even worse for medium mechs."

Counterpoint
A) Not the level of diversity that needs to be there

B ) I run all my Hunchbacks and Centurions regularly if not daily and I don't snipe. I play Assault support and weed off lights or help focus fire with the big boys...and turn in good numbers each match on average

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Fun is OP too, Bish.

Please, do me a favor. Currently I'm banking cash to buy several Clan chassis for cbills when they come out. I'm off to play other games until November/December, when it's all out. While I'm gone, please be one of the first ones to be honest.

I get that right now you're loving the Clan mechs. You're having fun, probably more fun than you've had in MW:O in a long time. You're positive, your take on everything is positive.

Later, when things start to mellow out and you're a little more realistic about it, try to be one of the reasonable guys. For IS to compete they need to hump the meta, the same stale meta that everyone has been hating for a year. Which one is the Clan Dragon, Quickdraw, Awesome, Commando?

The average Clan mech is better than the average IS mech. A peak meta poptart IS mech can keep up with the current non-peak Clan mechs. Is that really the balance that's going to populate half the game with IS mechs?

There's a difference between 'better' and 'op'. Better isn't just about field performance; it's about enjoyability. Clan mechs let you play a wide range of builds and still be reasonably competitive - that's something IS mechs can't do.

So when people complain about how unbalanced it is, please listen. After Tuesday, obviously. When you see the population of IS mechs fade after the next 2 weeks, please don't blow it off. Don't be the guy making excuses for why the 11 heat ERPPC is perfectly balanced and everyone just needs to 'adapt to the new tactics'.

Then, when all that's done, tell me how we're going to populate IS vs Clan CW with only a handful of people enjoying playing IS mechs.

actually we have no idea how wide a range of roles clans can play successfully. That will take weeks of actual gameplay to figure out.

And I have lots of fun on SMM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

actually we have no idea how wide a range of roles clans can play successfully. That will take weeks of actual gameplay to figure out.

And I have lots of fun on SMM.

And we'll sort it out with the Clans - can you say though that so far, they haven't been way more fun?

SMM is private matches. Sure it's fun with IS mechs - you're essentially making them work, in a wonky way, like clan mechs. You're getting around all the 'peak meta' BS that makes them less enjoyable in the regular gameplay.

Just saying, please. As a favor. In a couple of weeks when this all shakes out and people start doing the same thing they've always done (just adapt! It's not OPed, you just need to bring a poptart! I had a good game in my QD one time, thus the QD is perfectly balanced!) please be one of the reasonable guys.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

And we'll sort it out with the Clans - can you say though that so far, they haven't been way more fun?

SMM is private matches. Sure it's fun with IS mechs - you're essentially making them work, in a wonky way, like clan mechs. You're getting around all the 'peak meta' BS that makes them less enjoyable in the regular gameplay.

Just saying, please. As a favor. In a couple of weeks when this all shakes out and people start doing the same thing they've always done (just adapt! It's not OPed, you just need to bring a poptart! I had a good game in my QD one time, thus the QD is perfectly balanced!) please be one of the reasonable guys.

They have been fun, because they are different. After a while, different wears off and becomes the normal. So I try not to evaluate based on that. (Fun factor is important, but very very fickle and subjective. For instance, I find making all weapons DoT, "not fun". Others would disagree).

Plus it's hardly only "Meta" that use FLD weapons. With the Buckton Fix, SRMs are FLD and hopefully reliable again. LRMs. Using an AC20 does not make you "meta". Any reasonably decent IS build should from what I saw be able to stand up to an equivalent Clan Mech, for the most part. There will assuredly be balance changes needed as we play on.

Poptarting is broken for a number of reasons, PP-FLD is just one of the symptoms, not the underlying problem.

I also feel I am being perfectly reasonable. I am not one of the ones calling for a wholesale revamp of the game based off of one 12 hour test that half the people complaining didn't even play in. I am the one who has been saying cool your panties and let's let it play out. As of THIS moment, there is no reason to self destruct FLD. There are plenty of reasons to tweak it , though.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Davers]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

and Lights can usually maneuver out of focus fire situations, which is a trade off.

But I do love the continued myth of the Medium Mechs abject inferiority. My Totally non-meta, scarcely PP-FLD (btw, can you accuse UACs of being PP FLD; since the second shot can conceivably hit somewhere else? Also, how much FLD is too much? Cuz if we are quaking in fear over ac5s, it's time to play a different game. And btw, for the majority of the last 2 years, all the pros have repeatedly stated the ac10 is junk...so when did that change?) UAC, 2 Mlaser, 4 SSRM2 SHD certainly never feels at a loss when killing DS jocks.

And yet it is the fear of the dreaded dual AC/5s that drives threads like this.

[Bishop Steiner]

Davers, on 14 June 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

And yet it is the fear of the dreaded dual AC/5s that drives threads like this.

in fairness, if people really looked into the matter, it's as much the dps the ac5s provide than their alpha potential, even. They allow lots of low heat firepower while your ppcs are cooling down, or your mech, making it harder to approach unmolested.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I am basing my argument on the 2 years of play on the live server. (The clans merely served as an example of what I, and others, proposed a while ago.)

So you didn't fight Clan mechs with IS mechs? Just Clan on Clan and the occasional (as in 1 in 24) IS mechs. And you're assuming that your two years of IS on IS makes you knowledgeable on IS on Clan without having done it?

I spent 4 of the 8 hours on the PTS in various IS mechs. I've already sold 8 IS mechs because they were absolute garbage at fighting clans. Everything they did, the clan equivalent did 2-3x better.

IS v IS is radically different than IS on Clan. Things I could get away with in IS v IS got me mulched against Clan mechs. I died in my Atlas to many a Dire Wolf until I figured out how slow they were and how small their firing arc was. Before that, those double UAC20s were putting out 80 damage in the same window my Atlas with its lone, heavy AC20 was putting out just 20.

My poor 4P was no match for a Nova. Ever.

Timberwolves were running circles around my Orion. What was the only thing keeping my Orion alive? Snap shotting an AC20.

The only thing my 3L has over my Kit Fox is about 30kph. Other than that, it has less heatsinks, less range, and less damage.

Played my Awesome as well. It's even more boned against the clans than the IS.

I played my Hammerfist Victor, it couldn't keep up in the flinging of Ordinance. So I popped the stock 320 back in it with an optimized stock loadout. It had everything short of the Dire Wolf outmaneuvering it. I tried it with an XL380, slightly better but Timberwolves and lighter ravaged it. My Highlanders shared a similar fate.

My Griffon did okay, but it's 106kph with JJs and 2 PPCs, so I was faster than the opposition. My Wolverine SRM bomber did okay as well because its moving 99kph and doesn't need to stick around very long. My Cent bomber didn't fare so well, its speed being 98 and no JJs wasn't enough. My Shadowhawk with AC10 and 3xSRM4 moving 90kph was viable-ish too, because it didn't need to be exposed long to deal damage.

My Catapults? Only the Jester did will with it's 2 PPCs and JJs. The rest just got mulched by UAC spam. So instead of dying in 30 points of damage over about 2 minutes, I died in about 45 seconds of DPS autocannon spam from mechs that could run me down.

That basically left me with my Jenner F, which was great because speed. Then players started packing SSRM6s with a 360m range. So I had to get in, deal damage, get out and hope no one got a lock. 4xSSRM6s hurts, a lot.

As well as my 3D and Dragonslayer. By the time I started running those, the only Timberwolves I was seeing were 2xERPPC+Clan Gauss+JJs. Which is faster, cooler running, better hitboxed, and better armored than the 3D. The Dragonslayer was almost a match with better hitboxes and marginally better armor, but much shorter ranged, much slower, far less responsive, with a far squishier engine.

That's what I experienced on Thursday for about 4 hours.