524 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

If Clan Ultras fire in bursts of: 2, 3, 4, and 5...

Make IS Autocannons fire in bursts of 1, 2, 3, and 4.

They lose out on the doubletap, but gain slightly more front loaded damage per hit of an autocannon. This seems like a compromise between the two, no? Also reflects on the IS ACs being bigger, bulkier mechanisms.

Could you clarify this? I want to make sure I understand it perfectly before commenting/responding either way.

[Pariah Devalis]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Could you clarify this? I want to make sure I understand it perfectly before commenting/responding either way.

Certainly.

Clan UAC currently fire:
UAC2- 2 shots per burst - 1 damage per projectile
UAC5- 3 shots per burst - 1.667 damage per projectile
UAC10- 4 shots per burst - 2.5 damage per projectile
UAC20- 5 shots per burst - 4 damage per projectile

I propose IS Autocannons fire:
AC2- 1 shot per burst - 2 damage per projectile
AC5- 2 shots per burst - 2.5 damage per projectile
AC10- 3 shots per burst - 3.334 damage per projectile
AC20- 4 shots per burst - 5 damage per projectile

Each projectile is doing more damage per hit than a Clan's, but it is still drawn out over several shells per autocannon blast. So there is a slight FLD edge for the IS autocannons while still retaining a burst mechanic.

If you normalize the total fire duration and cooldown to be in synch with the Clan guns, DPS remains the same. Eventually, when IS UAC are introduced for all grades, just allow the doubletap function. The IS cannons are heavier and take up more space, so it makes some sense that they can force a larger shell out of the barrel.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Certainly.

Clan UAC currently fire:
UAC2- 2 shots per burst - 1 damage per projectile
UAC5- 3 shots per burst - 1.667 damage per projectile
UAC10- 4 shots per burst - 2.5 damage per projectile
UAC20- 5 shots per burst - 4 damage per projectile

I propose IS Autocannons fire:
AC2- 1 shot per burst - 2 damage per projectile
AC5- 2 shots per burst - 2.5 damage per projectile
AC10- 3 shots per burst - 3.334 damage per projectile
AC20- 4 shots per burst - 5 damage per projectile

Each projectile is doing more damage per hit than a Clan's, but it is still drawn out over several shells per autocannon blast. So there is a slight FLD edge for the IS autocannons while still retaining a burst mechanic.

If you normalize the total fire duration and cooldown to be in synch with the Clan guns, DPS remains the same. Eventually, when IS UAC are introduced for all grades, just allow the doubletap function. The IS cannons are heavier and take up more space, so it makes some sense that they can force a larger shell out of the barrel.

Isn't that what I put in the OP? (Except 3 shells for the AC20 due to its bulk) along with higher projectile speeds to make up for in weight.

[Pariah Devalis]

Somehow I missed that when I read it all. But, yes. Except I upped the AC10 to 3 shells, not 2, and AC20 to 4 shells, not 3. The burst is the important balancing bit.

Still, while I expected burst AC to make things so much more fun and to shake things up, I had no idea it would turn out that fun. XD

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Still, while I expected burst AC to make things so much more fun and to shake things up, I had no idea it would turn out that fun. XD

Insufficient "Like"s available. The PTS had me attached for full duration. (Partly due to the fun of the TBR, mostly due to the mixed range long engagement fighting style.)

[Pygar]

They might do this eventually, because the burst ACs are fun, and have their own advantages to counteract not being FLD. Right now, they have this FLD vs DOT thing set as a cornerstone of Clan balance. (and it actually looks like it's going to work) If they change it, the change will come later when people aren't as anxious about Clan balance and they decide need to do this to bury the "pop tart" meta once and for all.

And I think if they made PPCs a charge-fire mechanic weapon like Gauss at the same time, (even including the most recent rule of only being able to "charge" 2 at once) I think things would be about perfect.

Edited by Pygar, 14 June 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Honestly, if they leave IS PPC the way they are and just modify the IS AC to burst, the world will not be over. Not by a long shot. You will still see poptarts, on both sides. Instead of the [*smack head against keyboard here*] easy AC/AC/PPC/PPC poptart mechs, you will see the more skill intensive PPC/PPC/Gauss builds. Hilariously, if you can get the Gauss timing down it is a superior damage delivery than the current meta anyways, just less flexible.

Adding a charge mechanic to PPC seems unnecessary, however. They are hot, standard PPC have a minimum range, and the entire point of the Gauss charge was to not only add an artificial minimum range (which is a joke once you get accustomed to it), but to make it more difficult to fire both Gauss AND PPC at the same time.

Poptarts can exist, that is not an issue. They should exist, and the tactic should work, but it also needs to be harder to pull off and come with attendant downsides that make other combat styles, such as brawling, an equally viable alternative.

I for one feel that the burst AC approach can obtain that in one clean move.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

And the case against the IS having Burst Fire ACs?
Pretty simple.

Clan Burst fire is what balances them having UAC20s vs our UAC5s. Remove that, and no matter how you want to tweak the attendant numbers, Clan ACs will just flat out be better, period.

Clans win the DPS and Tonnage War, IS wins the FLD battle. Simple as that, and how it should remain.

[Pygar]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

..... but to make it more difficult to fire both Gauss AND PPC at the same time.

That's why I mentioned the "charge-up" rule...and even make it so a 2 PPC + Gauss mech can charge the PPCs, or can charge the Gauss. (or even PPC+ Gauss while the other PPC cools....either way, make it so that sniper "boats" like CTF3D and Dire Wolf can't alpha so hard at 800 meters.)

And you are correct, even with all that there will still be sniper boats and jump snipers, and deadly ones at that (especially considering that there are plenty of pilots already used to the charge nerf on the Gauss)...but it at least makes so not as many people use them.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And the case against the IS having Burst Fire ACs?
Pretty simple.

Clan Burst fire is what balances them having UAC20s vs our UAC5s. Remove that, and no matter how you want to tweak the attendant numbers, Clan ACs will just flat out be better, period.

Clans win the DPS and Tonnage War, IS wins the FLD battle. Simple as that, and how it should remain.

I heartily disagree, bishop.

The guns are lighter, yes. The damage they produce per salvo is not greater, however, and the weight savings you get do not offset the limited pod space in the Clan mechs. IS mechs, as currently designed, have a usable tonnage advantage that is as much as 40-50% greater than Clan mechs (outside of a rare few exceptions). Clan weapons (excepting missiles) are not 50% lighter, nor do they deal 50% more damage (outside of ERPPC - but those are also ungodly hot and spread over three sections). Mathematically, you cannot match an IS mech for ballistic based firepower outside of the Dire Wolf, you can break more or less even with missile firepower (except in the Warhawk and the light mechs because of their podspace pools and available hardpoints), and you can greatly exceed the firepower with ERSLas and ERMLas heavy mechs.

10 damage, pinpoint, is simply worth more than the 10 damage total compared to 2.5 damage fired four times. Or 20 damage pinpoint vs 4 damage over five shots. Good aim can help, but a smart enemy can armor roll regardless. It is not like for like, it is not apples to apples, but it is bananas to grapefruits. It also leads to lower TTK and staler gameplay where people are too scared to take even one hit because it is like getting hit with a multi-ton scalpel every time they get hit.

So we have two issues here. One of available firepower for a ballistic mech vs ballistic mech IS vs Clan, where the Clan mech will suffer in most cases, and one of FLD vs spread damage, which further reduces the effectiveness of what few Clan ballistics you can bring. Both are well in the favor of the IS mechs, both at range and up close. I would argue that between the two changes, the very fact that the Clan ACs are ultra is the only reason they can break even right now in the Class 2, 10, and 20 categories, since you can theoretically spit twice the firepower down range, but an IS UAC5 is going to outclass a Clan UAC5 every day of the year, here, too.

You can change how the burst mechanic works between IS and Clan while still retaining a burst mechanic. If they feel similar but different, fine! That is ideal. "Similar, but different." They are supposed to be the same weapon anyways. However, ignoring the future that is the IS UAC 2, 10, and 20 in favor of pinpoint FLD advantage now is shortsighted. It is best to sort it out in advance, then balance each side's peculiarities out in relation to one another.

And if PPC and Gauss are the only pinpoint front loaded weapon systems in the game? Good. Manage your heat or manage your charge mechanic. Pinpoint damage should never be so easy. Even lasers have a burn time.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And the case against the IS having Burst Fire ACs?
Pretty simple.

Clan Burst fire is what balances them having UAC20s vs our UAC5s. Remove that, and no matter how you want to tweak the attendant numbers, Clan ACs will just flat out be better, period.

Clans win the DPS and Tonnage War, IS wins the FLD battle. Simple as that, and how it should remain.

I must disagree with you here, Bishop.

IS would win the FLD battle, but what do mediums do? (PP/FLD is still the death of any medium or light mech that isn't just sniping.)

If you get seen by a 30ptPPFLD mech, the closer you are, the smaller chance of you making out alive, let alone able to fight. (Any medium mech taking 30pts all square in the rear torsos has had his game significantly shortened. Even if it did not kill him in that shot, the next grazing by a laser will.)

Thus the case for burst fire with fewer shells and faster speed.. still concentrated and overall *better* without being surgical.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

No.

The ability to turn, snap an AC20+2xSRM6, and turn away to shield is what kept my Atlas alive when brawling Dire Wolves. It also kept my Wang and Orion alive a lot longer too. I'm already at a huge speed and range disadvantage, the IS mechs need something tokeep them viable.

Besides, the Timberwolf S dethroned the Dragonslayer anyways. So there's that, clans got best DPS, best range, and best poptart. The IS get better lights and better FLD. Sounds fair to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

I heartily disagree, bishop.

The guns are lighter, yes. The damage they produce per salvo is not greater, however, and the weight savings you get do not offset the limited pod space in the Clan mechs. IS mechs, as currently designed, have a usable tonnage advantage that is as much as 40-50% greater than Clan mechs (outside of a rare few exceptions). Clan weapons (excepting missiles) are not 50% lighter, nor do they deal 50% more damage (outside of ERPPC - but those are also ungodly hot and spread over three sections). Mathematically, you cannot match an IS mech for ballistic based firepower outside of the Dire Wolf, you can break more or less even with missile firepower (except in the Warhawk, Direwolf, and the light mechs because of their podspace pools), and you can greatly exceed the firepower with ERSLas and ERMLas heavy mechs.

10 damage, pinpoint, is simply worth more than the 10 damage total compared to 2.5 damage fired four times. Or 20 damage pinpoint vs 4 damage over five shots. Good aim can help, but a smart enemy can armor roll regardless. It is not like for like, it is not apples to apples, but it is bananas to grapefruits. It also leads to lower TTK and staler gameplay where people are too scared to take even one hit because it is like getting hit with a multi-ton scalpel every time they get hit.

So we have two issues here. One of available firepower for a ballistic mech vs ballistic mech IS vs Clan, where the Clan mech will suffer in most cases, and one of FLD vs spread damage, which further reduces the effectiveness of what few Clan ballistics you can bring. Both are well in the favor of the IS mechs, both at range and up close. I would argue that between the two changes, the very fact that the Clan ACs are ultra is the only reason they can break even right now in the Class 2, 10, and 20 categories, since you can theoretically spit twice the firepower down range, but an IS UAC5 is going to outclass a Clan UAC5 every day of the year, here, too.

You can change how the burst mechanic works between IS and Clan while still retaining a burst mechanic. If they feel similar but different, fine! That is ideal. "Similar, but different." They are supposed to be the same weapon anyways. However, ignoring the future that is the IS UAC 2, 10, and 20 in favor of pinpoint FLD advantage now is shortsighted. It is best to sort it out in advance, then balance each side's peculiarities out in relation to one another.

And if PPC and Gauss are the only pinpoint front loaded weapon systems in the game? Good. Manage your heat or manage your charge mechanic. Pinpoint damage should never be so easy. Even lasers have a burn time.

Um, you forget these are UACs. 12 tons for the ability to lay out 40 damage in approximately 1 second, vs 20 damage for 14 tons. And the IS has less range, and is bulkier.

Is it focused? Not as easily, but it's potential, compared to IS weapons, for damage is not even close.

Now you go and have an IS AC20 for more tonnage, more crits, less range.... and it lays out half the DPS?

How is that even remotely a balanced tradeoff.

Slow the cooldown for FLD. Heck, add a CoF past their optimal range if needed, but let's not out right neuter the IS mechs, and thus, the game-

[Livewyr]

JohanssenJr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

No.

The ability to turn, snap an AC20+2xSRM6, and turn away to shield is what kept my Atlas alive when brawling Dire Wolves. It also kept my Wang and Orion alive a lot longer too. I'm already at a huge speed and range disadvantage, the IS mechs need something tokeep them viable.

Besides, the Timberwolf S dethroned the Dragonslayer anyways. So there's that, clans got best DPS, best range, and best poptart. The IS get better lights and better FLD. Sounds fair to me.

A: SRMs would still be FLD.
B: You forget what happens to mediums on both sides with PPFLD everything. (Mediums are big targets that do not move fast enough to evade a surgical strike.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

I must disagree with you here, Bishop.

IS would win the FLD battle, but what do mediums do? (PP/FLD is still the death of any medium or light mech that isn't just sniping.)

If you get seen by a 30ptPPFLD mech, the closer you are, the smaller chance of you making out alive, let alone able to fight. (Any medium mech taking 30pts all square in the rear torsos has had his game significantly shortened. Even if it did not kill him in that shot, the next grazing by a laser will.)

Thus the case for burst fire with fewer shells and faster speed.. still concentrated and overall *better* without being surgical.

I run 90% Mediums, and I can't agree. Yes, I have to play smarter, and yes, if I get caught out, and focused, I die. But it's not the automatic death sentence people make it out to be.

I am running a 3 to 1 or better KDr, PUGing, in most of my Mediums for a reason.

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

A: SRMs would still be FLD.
B: You forget what happens to mediums on both sides with PPFLD everything. (Mediums are big targets that do not move fast enough to evade a surgical strike.)

Not true, I avoid plenty of them, also proper use of twisting mitigates much damage, and Clans have XL engines that allow them to survive losing half their mech and still mount as much firepower as many IS Mechs having to mount Standard Engines to mimic the survivability.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Slow the cooldown for FLD. Heck, add a CoF past their optimal range if needed, but let's not out right neuter the IS mechs, and thus, the game-

That would nerf them even further than a concentrated Burst fire would.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Not true, I avoid plenty of them, also proper use of twisting mitigates much damage,

Your logic escapes me. How does proper use of twisting mitigate 30 points of surgical damage?


(You might have your shield arm in some cases to be removed by the first hit or two, but after that, then what?)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

That would nerf them even further than a concentrated Burst fire would.

No, it really wouldn't. It would reward players who use caution and good piloting. Same reason my YLW with an AC20 and its long cooldown is still able to compete with one using 2 UAC (which for all intents and purposes act as a burst weapon)

[Coralld]

Mr. OP.

That is what, my self, Cimarb, and others have been saying sense CB, that what the game needs is Burst Fire mechanic for ACs and we were ridiculed for it. However, after several years or so with FLD meta, more people have begone to change their minds. With the advent of the Clans and their burst fire, which people are actually enjoying it, just vindicates what we have been saying and were right all along.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And the case against the IS having Burst Fire ACs?
Pretty simple.

Clan Burst fire is what balances them having UAC20s vs our UAC5s. Remove that, and no matter how you want to tweak the attendant numbers, Clan ACs will just flat out be better, period.

Clans win the DPS and Tonnage War, IS wins the FLD battle. Simple as that, and how it should remain.

That's funny considering I have been watching vids of people playing none meta IS mech and do just fine. The proposed changes to IS Burst Fire by reducing the number of shells fired per trigger pull vs their Clan counter parts will not be anywhere near as detrimental as you claim.
Currently, IS meta mechs still rofl stomp Clans just as easily as a regular IS none meta mech. Was watching a twitch feed at work from one of my friends on my lunch break, the game was awesome to watch and I so wanted to participate, but then a meta Victor appeared and annihilated everyone.

Edited by Coralld, 14 June 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Ngamok]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I just read the TRO on the hunchie, doesn't say anything about a "Single Blow."

Every game that I have played and everything that I have read about the 4G is that it's a single shot cannon.

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=566

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

That would nerf them even further than a concentrated Burst fire would.



Your logic escapes me. How does proper use of twisting mitigate 30 points of surgical damage?


(You might have your shield arm in some cases to be removed by the first hit or two, but after that, then what?)

Easy. You take it on a location that is not vital. Clan Mechs survive with half their mech missing, WITH an XL. The logic is not that hard to grasp.