524 replies to this topic

[Thcucolate]

Do my points in this Topic reflect on this one at all?

http://mwomercs.com/...chain-fire-bug/

[DarthPeanut]

Livewyr, on 15 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Along with the change (either the shortened burst or the splash mechanic) would include a a faster projectile speed- to increase the accuracy of IS cannons and, if needed, a RoF increase to achieve a better (stable) DPS in a brawl.

Splash mechanic seems ridiculous for an AC honestly, they should stay accurate to the component location they hit for full damage of that projectile. Otherwise those are not bad ideas at all and I do not want you to think I am closed minded. I appreciate what you are suggesting honestly cause you put a lot of thought into it but I disagree with the changes.

Let me preface that I am not a high elo poptart meta whatever guy, just a casual player having fun. That said... for me it is all about the Clan and IS having specific differences in play style, weapons, tactics, etc. Keeps the game from becoming a mundane grind of gray area FPS blah.

EDITED to clarify my wording a bit.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 15 June 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Livewyr]

DarthPeanut, on 15 June 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Splash mechanic seems odd for an AC honestly, they should stay accurate to the component location they hit for full damage of that projectile. Otherwise those are not bad ideas at all and I do not want you to think I am closed minded. I appreciate what you are suggesting honestly cause you put a lot of thought into trying to balancing it and not just handicap IS.

I am not a high elo poptart meta whatever guy, just a casual player having fun. For me it is all about the Clan and IS having specific differences in play style, weapons, tactics, etc. Keeps the game from becoming a mundane grind of gray area FPS blah.

Indeed, the splash mechanic irks me a little bit as well. (Although it could be justified by the larger rounds being High Explosive, as opposed to depleted uranium slugs.) I just want to help the mediums out against the current IS meta, regardless of how it is done.

[Rampancy]

Livewyr, on 15 June 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

A: I don't buy anecdotes (I could counter you IS NOT example with an IS SO example.) so one must look at the mechanics. 30pt PPFLD does 60-90% damage to a component on a medium mech. In one shot, in one click.

B: The firestarter's (or Jenner's) alpha is spread on a moving target by virtue of being lasers.

Spread damage is still damage, with increased survivability. (And as I noticed on the PTS, it also results in more Cbills, having to do more damage. Minor buff to everyone.)

A.) Not really. If I'm a sitting duck at range, sure, but most of the time if I'm not playing like a moron that damage is going to be spread to at least one other component, or at least placed on a component I don't care about a whole lot.

B.) Some damage is spread, yes. But reducing the ability of the medium to fire damage back, or forcing increased exposure to do said damage, punishes mediums disproportionately, since they lack the speed or armor of other chassis. Time-on-target hurts mediums the most. Period.

[Graugger]

ACs need 1.5x max range instead of 2x

AC/2 velocity needs to be 1350 m/s with a cooldown of 1 second.
AC/5 needs a velocity of 850 m/s with a cooldown of 2 seconds.
AC/10 velocity must be 420 m/s with a cooldown of 3 seconds.
AC/20 needs to be at a velocity of 200 m/s with a cooldown of 5 seconds.

[Coralld]

Graugger, on 15 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

ACs need 1.5x max range instead of 2x

AC/2 velocity needs to be 1350 m/s with a cooldown of 1 second.
AC/5 needs a velocity of 850 m/s with a cooldown of 2 seconds.
AC/10 velocity must be 420 m/s with a cooldown of 3 seconds.
AC/20 needs to be at a velocity of 200 m/s with a cooldown of 5 seconds.

Still does not solve the problem.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Although I like the idea of having burst fire for IS Mechs, if the general consensus seems to be, to give Clan AC Weapons the burst fire functionality, then the only current weapon that possibly could see Clan style burst is the IS Ultra AC/5, since its only real differences from its Clan Cousins should be minimal tweaks done to the Clan versions, since the clans had the tech support to fiddle with them (assuming we won't be seeing different weapons from different manufacturers for CW) before the invasion.


So, at any rate, I'd like to look at another alternative for IS AC weapons such as simply reducing damage per round, cooldown (and heat where necessary for HPS), with an increase to ammo and projectile speeds as necessary. (And even consider looking at minimum range reducing damage on targets hit within that minimum, to be able to prove further buffs as more trade offs in relation to Clan weapons such as the idea in this thread).


Here is a table brainstorming some idea as to what could be explored:

Spoiler

If these kind of numbers could help to reduce FLD, and keep them different from Clan weapons then I hope that they would be considered.

Dual Gauss would now deal 20 damage every 2.50 seconds, dual AC/20s would deal 20 damage every 2.00 seconds. (If that is still too much FLD from those, I wouldn't mind seeing how they might work if they could lay down some dakka instead as the two options on the bottom of the table).

Gauss side-note

Spoiler

Having a rapid fire Gauss could be interesting, it is supposed to be a super-sized Coilgun after all. (and of course such a change would no longer require the charge up sequence).

Here's a handheld one in action (imagine that kinda fire rate on a Battlemech using huge electromagnets and the fusion engine).

Two PPC and Two AC/5 would deal 26 damage every 4 seconds if group fired together (I didn't look at PPCs in the table above, but with tweaking Gauss, PPCs could a projectile speed buff or even inherit Gauss's charge mechanic, if that mechanic would workout still to stay in MWO).

And so on.

[Goose of Prey]

]Keep the A/C's as they are now. The penalties in weight, ammo, and range more than make-up for the FLD. If you miss there is no getting some of the damage on target like beam weapons

There is something to be said for the "feeling" one gets when firing a weapon system. Video games are about an emotional experience, not math hammer. The RoF nerf to the ac/5 and ac/2 almost made me quit. Not because I was causing less damage, but because the weapon systems felt like I was firing trough molasses. They could have lowered the damage and upped the shots per ton, getting the same numbers in the end.

Give me my ac/10 any day. BOOM Smack, Boom Smack that's how I deal with a stressful day at work when I play my computer game. I don't want the clan ac's they sound weak, BUZZZZ BUZZZ plink, plink, plink. It sounds like I'm chain firing a BB gun, not a BFG cannon.

For those people that can't handle getting shot I would suggest you look to an increase in armor. The RoF over TT values is 3 to 4 times greater. The armor only doubled. Maybe a 3x or 4x of base with a little less going to lights, due to hit box, HSR issues will help out.

Having said that, I think people tend to forget that this is not the table top rendered on a computer screen. We play the different formats to have a different experience. Leave the TT nerfs where the belong, on the gaming table.

Flame away flamers.

[Livewyr]

Goose of Prey, on 15 June 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

There is something to be said for the "feeling" one gets when firing a weapon system. Video games are about an emotional experience, not math hammer.

What about the emotional experience of the IS medium that got killed in one-two shot(s)?

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 15 June 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

What about the emotional experience of the IS medium that got killed in one-two shot(s)?

since I am one of those IS Mediums (75% Medium Mech matches), and if I may be immodest, probably one of the better ones.... why is it I am not crying about it happening?

Come quickly, Papercut Warrior Online. We cannot get to your neutered genericness soon enough!

[Sephlock]

Livewyr, on 15 June 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

What about the emotional experience of the IS medium that got killed in one-two shot(s)?

The more bitter his pain and the lighter his mech, the sweeter his tears.

I believe the formula is something like

(amount of tons under 100) x (bitterness + 10) = (sweetness and satisfaction factor) / 2

[kesmai]

Last time i was on the pst i found a weapon that is called c-ac, although it's range was a tad better than it's is pendant, it worked exactly the same way.
guess what, a c-ac/10 deals exactly the same 10points of pinpoint damage as the is-ac does.
the only difference there is, is the uac/5. Different mechanics, no problem.
the only question is did the is have ultra autocannons of another caliber than '5'? If so they should be implemented WITH the same is mechanics.

Leave the **** where it is now pgi. Maybe a little tweak here and there.
all in all I do not see a problem. And I do not think there is one... (at least not with the ac's).
what really is op are the normal is ppc's. And we will se a lot of them in the next weeks.(if that is even possible).

[wanderer]

Quote

Come quickly, Papercut Warrior Online. We cannot get to your neutered genericness soon enough!

By those standards, lasers and missiles along with LB-X are already firmly stuck in papercut mode.

Of course, AC/PPC/Gauss is meta master race at this point. Three guesses why.

[TexAce]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Of everyone who did the PTS, I've yet to see a dissenting opinion of burst-fire autocannons. This was used to balance against the IS because of clan-weapon lower weight and double-tap capability.

That said, I think IS auto-cannons should get a similar workup, but adjusted to keep them slightly better for their weight.

My solution is simple:
Have the IS Autocannon projectiles be 100m/s (or more) faster than their clan Ultra counterparts. (which I think is already the case, at least in the 20's department)

Have larger bore sizes for IS weapons. (Fits the weight increase, right!?)
Weapon----CLAN----IS
(U)AC20------5--------3 (Shells)
(U)AC10------3--------2
(U)AC5--------3-------2
(U)AC2--------2-------1


This would better allow for the straight brawl-y fun we had in the PTS, while keeping the IS Autocannons better at concentrating damage to off-set their weight and size disadvantage.

(And would also severely cripple much of the poptart meta, along with the JJ/legdmg adjustments.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is my hope that this would be merely a stopgap measure, on PGI's way to making individual variants of weapons. (Different manufacturers: different characteristics.)

Example: AC20
Chemjet 185 = 2 Shells at 700m/s
Pontiac 100 = 3 Shells at 900m/s
Luxor Devastator-20 = 10 Shells at 1400m/s
And so on, and so forth. (You could even make them faction specific for CW)

Each would have advantages and disadvantages. (For a visual demonstration, look for Koniving's video, he put words into pretty film.)

I am all for this, but only if we really get different weapons by different manufacturers so there is ONE manufacturer who produces a sluggish AC20 with only one shell.

I dont care that much about AC5 and AC10 but shooting one shell of a AC20 is sooo much fun, I dont wanna miss that.
It can knock my mech over or twist its torso, whatever, I dont mind that, its a BMFG but it should stay in the game.

Edited by TexAss, 16 June 2014 - 03:42 AM.

[Critical Rocket]

I was ignorant to the fact that Inner Sphere autocannons fired in different ways depending on manufacturer. It's a cool little thing to know, but for this game maybe it's too late to change it now. So many players are used to the solid shot system of MWO now and the burst fire of the new clan AC's keeps them distinct from one another.

Maybe one day in the far flung future PGI will make a massive overhaul of weapons, adding things like manufacture quirks and different values based on such things, but for now I would prefer they finish up the clans, get them working and add new maps, modes and community warfare before they start messing with weapons again.

Not saying Livewyr's suggestion is bad (it's fine and more in line with BT canon) just I would prefer PGI prioritise other features first.

[P e n u m b r a]

no because LBX slug round and enough brawler focused weapons as is

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

since I am one of those IS Mediums (75% Medium Mech matches), and if I may be immodest, probably one of the better ones.... why is it I am not crying about it happening?

Come quickly, Papercut Warrior Online. We cannot get to your neutered genericness soon enough!

Your anecdote and opinion are noted and cataloged.

(Also, you might want to read the last few pages, a suitable alternative has been suggested: Dealing with the problem while keeping the precious Semi-AutoRifle effect.)

Sephlock, on 15 June 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

The more bitter his pain and the lighter his mech, the sweeter his tears.

I believe the formula is something like

(amount of tons under 100) x (bitterness + 10) = (sweetness and satisfaction factor) / 2

Give me my real clan weapons and double heatsinks. (Not this extended beam crap.)

I will create a river of tears and blood!

James Heywood, on 16 June 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

I was ignorant to the fact that Inner Sphere autocannons fired in different ways depending on manufacturer. It's a cool little thing to know, but for this game maybe it's too late to change it now. So many players are used to the solid shot system of MWO now and the burst fire of the new clan AC's keeps them distinct from one another.

Maybe one day in the far flung future PGI will make a massive overhaul of weapons, adding things like manufacture quirks and different values based on such things, but for now I would prefer they finish up the clans, get them working and add new maps, modes and community warfare before they start messing with weapons again.

Not saying Livewyr's suggestion is bad (it's fine and more in line with BT canon) just I would prefer PGI prioritise other features first.

Under different circumstances, I would agree, but this has been a problem for over a year. We have seen the effect it has on the live server for many months now.

L e 0, on 16 June 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

no because LBX slug round and enough brawler focused weapons as is

I am not so sure that LBX's will have a single solid slug, given that their stopgap measure for ammo-switching problems was to create two different weapons (LBs and regular ACs) where the ACs still fired in bursts.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 June 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The funny thing is, I can see a point in the future when almost all IS mechs in the field will be poptart Assualts and Heavies and everything else will be Clan mechs LOL.

The IS will support a superior autocannon for pinpoint damage with PPCs, and Clan weapons seem to be geared better for almost all other tactics. The only other IS mech type fielded might be a Light mech due to the high speed of IS lights.

I do like the idea of IS autocannons being 1 round per shot high damage to help combat Clan mechs and tech, but I do feel like that is the only real good weapon advantage the IS has over clan weapons.

I think the IS Heavies and epecially Mediums are really going to be at a disadvantage and be almost gone going forward. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling I will be right.

[Praehotec8]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 June 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

The funny thing is, I can see a point in the future when almost all IS mechs in the field will be poptart Assualts and Heavies and everything else will be Clan mechs LOL.

At higher ELOs, how is this different from the way it is currently? In lower ELOs, people already run a variety of mechs and loadouts based more on personal preference than effieciency. While we certainly have to watch how things unfold and adjust accordingly, at this point even if the clans have a slight edge, I see no evidence that everyone will abandon the IS for the clans (once the novelty factor wears off of course).

[stjobe]

It's funny.

I've argued for ACs to be burst-fire for the last year or so, and now here we are where everyone has had a chance to see for themselves what a great addition to the game it is.

I feel vindicated

Naturally, I fully support the OP; make all IS ACs burst-fire ASAP.