524 replies to this topic

[Rampancy]

Statius, on 20 June 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

0.1 would not be so if the whole had ten ticks, say, for an AC20 and longer range. And for an AC2 or AC5, with a shorter burst would preserve near FLD, with the possibility of some spread on a moving target.

Yeah, this was essentially my reasoning. Preserves FLD but requires more careful aim to get the full damage on one component.

[Rampancy]

Livewyr, on 20 June 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

Oh that is cute, I did not immediately hop on board with your proposal (which was taking the OP overboard), and instead posted my concerns with it, so I am not even pretending...

Go home.

Not my issue with your response. My issue with your responses in this thread has been telling dedicated medium pilots in definitive terms what will and will not help mediums while being completely wrong about it.

For example, an AC20 shell goes at 700 m/s. With a .1 second burst, the third shell fires 70 meters behind the first shell. Against a target at 210m, that shell will take .3 seconds to reach its target. A Centurion with a STD 225 (a slow engine for a Cent) and double basics can still turn 16 degrees in .1 seconds. In .4 seconds, it will have spun a full 64 degrees.

Say the Cent starts twisting away from facing the AC20 at the exact moment the AC20 fires. The AC20 is aimed at the general vicinity of the moving CT. First shell hits. Cent has turned 48 degrees. Shell hits CT or LT, depending on exactly how well the shot was aimed. Second shell hits. 56 degrees. That's a LT shot, or a shield arm shot. Third shell hits. 64 degrees. That shot will 100% hit the shield arm.

Without the burst, the Cent probably takes 20 damage to the CT, possibly the LT. With the burst, the AC20 firer has to react and track VERY carefully with his aim to squeeze that second shell into the CT, and that 3rd shell hits the shield arm every time.

I don't know if you've use heavy ballistics against mediums, but most are fast enough that being off a few pixels in aim means you hit a different component or whiff entirely a lot of the time, depending on relative motion and what component you were aiming at. .1 seconds is that few pixels.

You're more than welcome to not like the proposal, but rejecting it because ZOMG IT DOESN'T HELP MEDIUMS (Which is what you've been doing this whole thread to GUYS THAT PILOT MEDIUM MECHS) is just obnoxious.

Edited by RampancyTW, 20 June 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Sprouticus]

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Not my issue with your response. My issue with your responses in this thread has been telling dedicated medium pilots in definitive terms what will and will not help mediums while being completely wrong about it.

For example, an AC20 shell goes at 700 m/s. With a .1 second burst, the third shell fires 70 meters behind the first shell. Against a target at 210m, that shell will take .3 seconds to reach its target. A Centurion with a STD 225 (a slow engine for a Cent) and double basics can still turn 16 degrees in .1 seconds. In .4 seconds, it will have spun a full 64 degrees.

Say the Cent starts twisting away from facing the AC20 at the exact moment the AC20 fires. The AC20 is aimed at the general vicinity of the moving CT. First shell hits. Cent has turned 48 degrees. Shell hits CT or LT, depending on exactly how well the shot was aimed. Second shell hits. 56 degrees. That's a LT shot, or a shield arm shot. Third shell hits. 64 degrees. That shot will 100% hit the shield arm.

Without the burst, the Cent probably takes 20 damage to the CT, possibly the LT. With the burst, the AC20 firer has to react and track VERY carefully with his aim to squeeze that second shell into the CT, and that 3rd shell hits the shield arm every time.

I don't know if you've use heavy ballistics against mediums, but most are fast enough that being off a few pixels in aim means you hit a different component or whiff entirely a lot of the time, depending on relative motion and what component you were aiming at. .1 seconds is that few pixels.

You're more than welcome to not like the proposal, but rejecting it because ZOMG IT DOESN'T HELP MEDIUMS (Which is what you've been doing this whole thread to GUYS THAT PILOT MEDIUM MECHS) is just obnoxious.

I like your example, but how would it look if you did not start turning until the first shot hit you. Because a LOT of the time that is the case. A pilot gets hit, THEN he reacts. Assuming good reaction I would guess that you would STILL get 2 shells on target before he even STARTED turning. Sure better pilots would spread more, anticipate more, etc. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.

If the IS AC's had 4 shells that would be 50% on one section. Not bad at all IMO. If it was 3, even more.

[Rampancy]

Sprouticus, on 20 June 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

I like your example, but how would it look if you did not start turning until the first shot hit you. Because a LOT of the time that is the case. A pilot gets hit, THEN he reacts. Assuming good reaction I would guess that you would STILL get 2 shells on target before he even STARTED turning. Sure better pilots would spread more, anticipate more, etc. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.

If the IS AC's had 4 shells that would be 50% on one section. Not bad at all IMO. If it was 3, even more.

If you don't start moving until the first shell hits, you deserve every bit of that damage on your CT

[Cimarb]

Statius, on 20 June 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

0.1 would not be so if the whole had ten ticks, say, for an AC20 and longer range. And for an AC2 or AC5, with a shorter burst would preserve near FLD, with the possibility of some spread on a moving target.

If it was ten ticks for a total of 1 second (0.1x10=1.0), I agree. He is proposing three ticks in 0.1 second, or 0.033 per tick. Big difference. There is no noticeable spread within 0.1 second.

[Rampancy]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

If it was ten ticks for a total of 1 second (0.1x10=1.0), I agree. He is proposing three ticks in 0.1 second, or 0.033 per tick. Big difference. There is no noticeable spread within 0.1 second.

.05 per tick, actually.

A shot doesn't have to miss a component by a mile to be a miss. It just has to miss.

[Statius]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

If it was ten ticks for a total of 1 second (0.1x10=1.0), I agree. He is proposing three ticks in 0.1 second, or 0.033 per tick. Big difference. There is no noticeable spread within 0.1 second.

Ah! I see, yes, that would be short. I think total burst times of 0.3-1.0 would be reasonable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 20 June 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

self righteous golden crusade rant

Yup, as I said, too emotionally invested, wronged party, have to win the argument.

If you are LEGITIMATELY interested in talking some form of compromise, I'll be delighted to. But as long as you are on your moral crusader, emotionally charged crusade, taking every comment as a personal attack and out to vindicate your holy name tact to things, there really is nothing to discuss, no place to start.

As long as your comments are going to be completely skewed and seeing red, why bother?

IF, big if, you are wanting to actually discuss other options. Then do so. If instead all you want to do is argue, then keep looking to pass all blame, and act the wounded righteous martyr.

Up to you.

[Livewyr]

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Not my issue with your response. My issue with your responses in this thread has been telling dedicated medium pilots in definitive terms what will and will not help mediums while being completely wrong about it.

I also pilot mediums as a specialty. (Personal favorite is the YLW for its maneuverability.) I only switched to the Timber Wolf because it has general medium maneuverability, while having better firepower and armor. (That, and it is the Timber Wolf.)

Do not presume that I do not know how to pilot a medium mech.

And regardless of that, anecdotes, which is what these are, have no basis in balance discussions. Numbers do.

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

For example, an AC20 shell goes at 700 m/s. With a .1 second burst, the third shell fires 70 meters behind the first shell. Against a target at 210m, that shell will take .3 seconds to reach its target. A Centurion with a STD 225 (a slow engine for a Cent) and double basics can still turn 16 degrees in .1 seconds. In .4 seconds, it will have spun a full 64 degrees.

Do not forget that all of the shells will take .3 seconds to arrive at the target, not just the last one.

.1 seconds of firing is .1 seconds of impacts.

To bring the math in, a centurion moving 98kph perpendicular to to the angle of the firing POO (Point of Origin):
(98 kph = 27.2222 m/s)
In the same time frame of the first and last bullet(s) hitting, the mech will have moved 2.7 meters. (1.36m between 1st and 2nd bullet)

So, in that best case scenario (perpendicular at max speed), a paper-thin centurion component might escape the last bullet, and possibly the shawk, maybe.

Any sort of angle below 90degrees from the POO angle , or any mech slower than 100kph will result in less traverse achieved and severe reduction in chances of spreading the damage.

Example: Mech also moving 98kph, at a 45 degree angle from the POO angle:
100/90*45 = 50%
13.6111 = 27.2222 /2
The mech will have a lateral movement of 1.36m for the duration of the shot(s)

Final Example:
A shawk moving 89kph at a 60 degree angle.
24.7222 m/s
100/90*30 = 33.3333%
24.7222 * 0.333333 = 8.2407

8.2407 /10 = 0.82m for 0.1.

That shawk would have lateral movement of 0.8 meters during the .1 second burst. Unless you started at the tail of the component, all rounds are going to hit it.

You can do whatever math you want after that, but it all boils down to the best case scenario for a Centurion moving 98kph spreading 1 bullet worth of damage.

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Say the Cent starts twisting away from facing the AC20 at the exact moment the AC20 fires. The AC20 is aimed at the general vicinity of the moving CT. First shell hits. Cent has turned 48 degrees. Shell hits CT or LT, depending on exactly how well the shot was aimed. Second shell hits. 56 degrees. That's a LT shot, or a shield arm shot. Third shell hits. 64 degrees. That shot will 100% hit the shield arm.

I cannot open my client at the moment from where I am, but I don't remember the centurion torso twisting that fast in 0.1 second.

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Without the burst, the Cent probably takes 20 damage to the CT, possibly the LT. With the burst, the AC20 firer has to react and track VERY carefully with his aim to squeeze that second shell into the CT, and that 3rd shell hits the shield arm every time.

I think you are overestimating how much time 0.1 second is. (Think about a Small Pulse Laser, take one into the training grounds and shoot it, then divide that duration by five.)

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I don't know if you've use heavy ballistics against mediums, but most are fast enough that being off a few pixels in aim means you hit a different component or whiff entirely a lot of the time, depending on relative motion and what component you were aiming at. .1 seconds is that few pixels.

I use them all the time (well, before I went clan, though I still use my YLW on occasion) and max-speed/traverse profile shots are difficult and unsure, and I typically avoid those. When the mech changes direction is when the shot is more guaranteed and he eats it.

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

You're more than welcome to not like the proposal, but rejecting it because ZOMG IT DOESN'T HELP MEDIUMS (Which is what you've been doing this whole thread to GUYS THAT PILOT MEDIUM MECHS) is just obnoxious.

Again, I am one of those guys that pilots medium mechs, and I just gave you math for the mechanics instead of just anecdotes.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yup, as I said, too emotionally invested, wronged party, have to win the argument.

If you are LEGITIMATELY interested in talking some form of compromise, I'll be delighted to. But as long as you are on your moral crusader, emotionally charged crusade, taking every comment as a personal attack and out to vindicate your holy name tact to things, there really is nothing to discuss, no place to start.

As long as your comments are going to be completely skewed and seeing red, why bother?

IF, big if, you are wanting to actually discuss other options. Then do so. If instead all you want to do is argue, then keep looking to pass all blame, and act the wounded righteous martyr.

Up to you.

<insert appropriate equally condescending remark>

I have already made the case for the Arc damage, I have invited you 3 times (four now) to discuss it.

Feel free.

Edited by Livewyr, 20 June 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Cimarb]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yup, as I said, too emotionally invested, wronged party, have to win the argument.

Bishop and Livewyr: we are trying to actually have a discussion here. If you want to continue arguing, just do it in PMs. If you still feel that the discussion isn't going anywhere just stop posting. But the bickering back and forth between you two is silly... Since you can't agree on each other's proposals, start picking apart mine - I would LOVE the feedback!

[Cimarb]

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

.05 per tick, actually.

A shot doesn't have to miss a component by a mile to be a miss. It just has to miss.

Where do you get 0.05 per tick? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Rampancy]

Livewyr, on 20 June 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

I also pilot mediums as a specialty. (Personal favorite is the YLW for its maneuverability.) I only switched to the Timber Wolf because it has general medium maneuverability, while having better firepower and armor. (That, and it is the Timber Wolf.)

Do not presume that I do not know how to pilot a medium mech.

And regardless of that, anecdotes, which is what these are, have no basis in balance discussions. Numbers do.



Do not forget that all of the shells will take .3 seconds to arrive at the target, not just the last one.

.1 seconds of firing is .1 seconds of impacts.

To bring the math in, a centurion moving 98kph perpendicular to to the angle of the firing POO (Point of Origin):
(98 kph = 27.2222 m/s)
In the same time frame of the first and last bullet(s) hitting, the mech will have moved 2.7 meters. (1.36m between 1st and 2nd bullet)

So, in that best case scenario (perpendicular at max speed), a paper-thin centurion component might escape the last bullet, and possibly the shawk, maybe.

Any sort of angle below 90degrees from the POO angle , or any mech slower than 100kph will result in less traverse achieved and severe reduction in chances of spreading the damage.

Example: Mech also moving 98kph, at a 45 degree angle from the POO angle:
100/90*45 = 50%
13.6111 = 27.2222 /2
The mech will have a lateral movement of 1.36m for the duration of the shot(s)

Final Example:
A shawk moving 89kph at a 60 degree angle.
24.7222 m/s
100/90*30 = 33.3333%
24.7222 * 0.333333 = 8.2407

8.2407 /10 = 0.82m for 0.1.

That shawk would have lateral movement of 0.8 meters during the .1 second burst. Unless you started at the tail of the component, the rounds are going to hit.

You can do whatever math you want after that, but it all boils down to the best case scenario for a Centurion moving 98kph spreading 1 bullet worth of damage.




I cannot open my client at the moment from where I am, but I don't remember the centurion torso twisting that fast in 0.1 second.



I think you are overestimating how much time 0.1 second is. (Think about a Small Pulse Laser, take one into the training grounds and shoot it, then divide that duration by five.)



I use them all the time (well, before I went clan, though I still use my YLW on occasion) and max-speed/traverse profile shots are difficult and unsure, and I typically avoid those. When the mech changes direction is when the shot is more guaranteed and he eats it.

Seriously, dude? How far up your own ass is your head?

I didn't forget the travel time, because I clearly included it in my torso twisting calculations.

2.7m is over half of almost any component width. It's not insignificant.

Spreading one bullet's worth of damage is 1/3 of the total damage. More than your arcing AC damage proposal would do, but it's dependent on player interaction, not on a nonsensical mechanic.

A Cent packing a STD 225 and double basics turns 158 degrees/s. With a STD 275 that goes up to 193 degrees/s. My numbers are correct according to the mechlab, regardless of what you "remember."

I didn't give you anecdotes, I gave you hard numbers about what torso twisting alone can to do spread a shot. COMPLETELY ignoring relative speed/motion. Torso twist alone.

You seem to have an issue with medium mechs taking full damage from an AC salvo while doing nothing to spread/mitigate said damage, because the combination of your numbers and mine paint a pretty clear picture of the burst being spread or requiring careful aim to put the full burst on target against a competent medium pilot. A shot doesn't need to miss a component by a mile to be a miss-- it just has to miss.

IF YOUR DESIRE IS NOT TO SEE DAMAGE SPREAD ACROSS COMPONENTS, THEN COME RIGHT OUT AND SAY IT. IF YOU WANT PORTIONS OF SHOTS TO MISS MEDIUMS ENTIRELY, THEN SAY SO. Just cut the bullshit, okay? This conversation will be a lot more enjoyable that way.

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Where do you get 0.05 per tick? I'm not sure what you mean.

Initial shot is at t=0. 2nd shot of burst is at t=.05. 3rd shot of burst is at t=.1. Cheers!

[Bishop Steiner]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Bishop and Livewyr: we are trying to actually have a discussion here. If you want to continue arguing, just do it in PMs. If you still feel that the discussion isn't going anywhere just stop posting. But the bickering back and forth between you two is silly... Since you can't agree on each other's proposals, start picking apart mine - I would LOVE the feedback!

I am waiting for him to actually discuss his proposal. I believe he made a comment about arcing damage, to which he has never added anything further. As of this moment I have nothing to add to it, and so am waiting for him to elucidate further on his plan or idea.

Instead he seems content with it as is.

I have been done arguing for quite some time. I am waiting for him to actual put together a proposal, in detail as to how his arcing would work across the board.

Until that is done, and until the emotion is taken out of it, there is nothing I can possibly add to it.

If the arguing is bothering you, the simplest solution is to put us both on your ignore list, and then you don't have to see it anymore.

[Cimarb]

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Seriously, dude? How far up your own ass is your head?

Do you really think that is helping the situation, or going to get you a rational answer? Leave the insults out so we can discuss the issue instead of making it an issue.

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Initial shot is at t=0. 2nd shot of burst is at t=.05. 3rd shot of burst is at t=.1. Cheers!

Guess it just depends on how you want to break it up. Regardless, 0.033 and 0.05 are minutely small numbers and there is virtually no spread between shots that close to each other - nothing that a pilot can do anything about, at least - making it useless to use as a burst. 0.1 is as small of a division as needed.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 June 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

I am waiting for him to actually discuss his proposal. I believe he made a comment about arcing damage, to which he has never added anything further. As of this moment I have nothing to add to it, and so am waiting for him to elucidate further on his plan or idea.

Instead he seems content with it as is.

I have been done arguing for quite some time. I am waiting for him to actual put together a proposal, in detail as to how his arcing would work across the board.

Until that is done, and until the emotion is taken out of it, there is nothing I can possibly add to it.

If the arguing is bothering you, the simplest solution is to put us both on your ignore list, and then you don't have to see it anymore.

(Emphasis mine) you have both been arguing, quite emotionally, for the last day or two. You can't put it all on Livewyr, nor is it all on you - it's a two-way street. All I'm asking is that we calm the bickering and discuss the topic.

I'm not a fan of the arcing idea, at all. It makes no sense. I would prefer to keep ACs front-loaded as opposed to that, and I do NOT want to keep them front-loaded. PPCs, on the other hand, I have been pushing for an arc (or other area spread) for quite some time.

Arcing only makes sense if the hit explodes upon impact. If we get explosive ammo, then I think it is feasible, but not before.

I do think that burst-fire is the way to go, though, and would love to get back on topic and discuss what you think is wrong with what I proposed (way back near the beginning of this thread..see my sig).

[Rampancy]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Do you really think that is helping the situation, or going to get you a rational answer? Leave the insults out so we can discuss the issue instead of making it an issue.


Guess it just depends on how you want to break it up. Regardless, 0.033 and 0.05 are minutely small numbers and there is virtually no spread between shots that close to each other - nothing that a pilot can do anything about, at least - making it useless to use as a burst. 0.1 is as small of a division as needed.

Yes, by all means, ignore the plethora of math just laid out for how it can easily break up damage because you FEEL like the numbers are too small. Who needs facts, right?

Are you actually confused by why this is frustrating for me? Feel free to disagree with the method for whatever reason you see fit, but continuing to argue that it doesn't break up damage is just incomprehensibly dumb to me. It mathematically is demonstrated to do so. Period. That is not in doubt. Stop pretending it is.

[Monky]

Basically posted this to the clan feedback section after evaluating weapons on the last public test. My only thing is IS AC's shouldn't go above 2, and possibly the AC10 should be exempt as it is already not optimal. AC5/AC20 are the ones that needed the 2 shot burst, particularly AC5's though.

[MischiefSC]

I'm enjoying matches with fewer IS mechs, especially without poptart/FLD-heavy mechs, WAY WAY more. They are funner, harder fought at every range and more interesting. They also reward teamwork more.

Burst fire IC ACs. Wants it. Make them short; give them slightly faster recycle times to increase their DPS to be similar to Clan (but heavier and with less range) and it's beautimus. Then make PPCs 7 points on target and 3 point splash or 6 on target and 4 point splash. Then....

Give PPCs and ISERPPCs a heat buff. Say 9 and 13.

Then it's all glorious. GLORIOUS.

[Cimarb]

RampancyTW, on 20 June 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yes, by all means, ignore the plethora of math just laid out for how it can easily break up damage because you FEEL like the numbers are too small. Who needs facts, right?

Are you actually confused by why this is frustrating for me? Feel free to disagree with the method for whatever reason you see fit, but continuing to argue that it doesn't break up damage is just incomprehensibly dumb to me. It mathematically is demonstrated to do so. Period. That is not in doubt. Stop pretending it is.

Feel free to insult me all you want. Been there; done that.

I am setting a baseline on the number that I think would be balanced, and that is 0.1. Anything less than that is a waste of time, as it does not accomplish the goal of spreading the damage ENOUGH. It's not an exercise in making more work for PGI just to be able to say it is firing a "burst" of three rounds in a tenth of a second.

As long as the IS ACs are made into burst weapons and are balanced, I honestly could give two surat behinds what the numbers wind up being.

[Coralld]

MischiefSC, on 20 June 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

I'm enjoying matches with fewer IS mechs, especially without poptart/FLD-heavy mechs, WAY WAY more. They are funner, harder fought at every range and more interesting. They also reward teamwork more.

Burst fire IC ACs. Wants it. Make them short; give them slightly faster recycle times to increase their DPS to be similar to Clan (but heavier and with less range) and it's beautimus. Then make PPCs 7 points on target and 3 point splash or 6 on target and 4 point splash. Then....

Give PPCs and ISERPPCs a heat buff. Say 9 and 13.

Then it's all glorious. GLORIOUS.

I am currently of the mind that IS ACs should fire fewer rounds than the Clans, an idea that many of those who faver IS burst fire agree on. As for projectile velocity buff and such, I'm not to sure about, at least not right off the bat.
Any way, as I said before, increase the base cycle time for Clan ACs by say .5 second for example. This would mean in a straight up DPS fight with out the Clan using the double tap ability would favor the IS ACs, however, the Clan UACs when using double tape would not only match the IS burst Fire ACs but would surpass it but force Clan usesers to use the double tape and likely risk a jam.

This would bring a flavor and unequness between the two AC types even though they are both burst fire. IS ACs are more reliable and have a fast base cycle time but come at the cost of being heavier and larger, where as Clan ACs have a slower base cycle time but with the doubletap ability of their all UAC weapons would net them a high DPS potential, thus being high rist high reward.

As for Cimarbs .3 second burst duration for IS ACs, I'm not to sure, that still sounds to low. Perhaps .4 but deffenetly not above .5, at which point I would most likely say yes, give them their projectile velocity increase.

Edited by Coralld, 20 June 2014 - 09:28 PM.

[Cimarb]

Coralld, on 20 June 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Spoiler

I am currently of the mind that IS ACs should fire fewer rounds than the Clans, an idea that many of those who faver IS burst fire agree on. As for projectile velocity buff and such, I'm not to sure about, at least not right off the bat.
Any way, as I said before, increase the base cycle time for Clan ACs by say .5 second for example. This would mean in a straight up DPS fight with out the Clan using the double tap ability would favor the IS ACs, however, the Clan UACs when using double tape would not only match the IS burst Fire ACs but would surpass it but force Clan usesers to use the double tape and likely risk a jam.

This would bring a flavor and unequness between the two AC types even though they are both burst fire. IS ACs are more reliable and have a fast base cycle time but come at the cost of being heavier and larger, where as Clan ACs have a slower base cycle time but with the doubletap ability of their all UAC weapons would net them a high DPS potential, thus being high rist high reward.

As for Cimarbs .3 second burst duration for IS ACs, I'm not to sure, that still sounds to low. Perhaps .4 but deffenetly not above .5, at which point I would most likely say yes, give them their projectile velocity increase.

I agree with all that, but I am not saying to have a 0.3 second total burst. I am saying that is the MINIMUM that I think is acceptable. Anything less than that and it might as well not even be a burst. So, at the minimum, have a 3-round burst that lasts 0.3 seconds (0.1 seconds between rounds).