153 replies to this topic

[HumanDuracell]

A question..

With the arrival of the Radar Deprivation module it's a good bet that it is going to be the 'must have' item in all 'mechs meaning that the days of players loading up their 'mechs with LRMs, standing at the back and lobbing over almost constant volleys of LRM grief with little risk to themselves is pretty much over. Pretty soon those LRM boats are going to have no-one to play with.. except the light 'mechs who have just identified them for what they are and are bringing friends.
Personally I feel that this is not a bad thing and something that was needed in-game. Having a game changer such as this is good for any game as it forces the players to adapt. Those that don't, fall behind. The 'meta' changes.

However my question is this.. How does Radar Deprivation interact with TAG and NARC?

My personal view is that it should work like this:
Any 'Mech currently fitted with the Radar Dep. module and has been marked by TAG or NARC may be targeted outside of LoS while the 'marking' effect is maintained. This would open up opportunities for scouting players to seek out targets and mark them up for any of their team's LRM carrying players.

Both TAG and NARC have their advantages and disadvantages to this method:
With TAG you can stand off at distance and paint the target, but the TAG beam can be spotted by the opposing team and is only effective while the target is painted.
With the NARC you can mark the target and then forget about it while the marked target soaks up the LRM goodness coming its way, but the short range of the launcher and low firing velocity of the beacon itself means that you have to get in close to successfully mark your target, and even then it will only work if there is no ECM near enough to counter it.

In this way, the Meta changes.. LRM boats would still be viable but greater co-ordination and team work would be needed for them to be effective.

If however this is not the case and a Radar Dep. equipped 'mech is immune to being locked onto even while marked with TAG or NARC, then I feel that these two items have been rendered pretty much obsolete and that a wonderful chance of role-based warfare (which has been a key aim for the Devs) has been missed.

So could anyone let me know what they think, or what their observations from actual gameplay are.

[Carrioncrows]

Hell no, LRM's are still massively powerful

But it's a step in the right direction.

Clarification: LRM's on a individual basis are weak, but on a team basis they are way overpowered.

The best step would be to remove indirect fire from LRM's (except when the target is hit with Tag, Narc or a UAV)

THEN we can increase the Speed, damage, spread and tracking of the LRM's to make them deadlier and down right evil if someone does get hit with a tag, narc or UAV.

[kapusta11]

Carrioncrows, on 18 June 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

Hell no, LRM's are still massively powerful

But it's a step in the right direction.

Clarification: LRM's on a individual basis are weak, but on a team basis they are way overpowered.

The best step would be to remove indirect fire from LRM's (except when the target is hit with Tag, Narc or a UAV)

THEN we can increase the Speed, damage, spread and tracking of the LRM's to make them deadlier and down right evil if someone does get hit with a tag, narc or UAV.

QFT

[AssaultPig]

if indirect fire is removed, how are narcs or UAVs relevant?

LRMs are fine; they are only 'overpowered' if a team is coordinated and has 1-2 mechs to spot for the boats; there's barely any situations where LRM mechs are gonna be better on a 1:1 basis than their direct fire equivalents.

I personally think that the radar deprivation module is sort of dumb; makes it a lot tougher to effectively use a weapon that already has a number of disadvantages. But really we'll have to get a bigger gameplay sample than we currently have to know for sure.

[Frankdark]

If i would be responsible:

Normal LRM´s can Only Lock on to there targets inside.

TAG, Narc gives abiltity to lock on without direkt contaced.

T3 1 Crit, 1t
Is needed for the system like it is now. ( you give the information out and LRM gunner resive the target information )

[Willard Phule]

What I really want to know is how it interacts with Advanced Target Decay.

I spent a LOT of GXP and Cbills on that module. If it is no longer viable, I'd like a refund so I can spend it all on the new ones.

[willismaximus]

Here's my take, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I never played TT. I'm ok with radar dep simply because you have to spend a module slot and cbills to counter what amounts to a free c3 computer and information sharing, something that should cost tonnage.. People have become accustomed to hiding behind a rock the entire match and leeching off others' targeting data and doing 600+ dmg. Now they are forced to go get LOS on their own targets and keep it, or take a gamble that the shared data will still be there by the time their missiles hit.
Personally, when I use lrms, I try to use my own target data anyways so I dont waste salvos.
Bottom line , the module is good for the game by forcing lrm boats to be a bit more proactive and decide when to launch and when to hold off. I haven't used the module myself yet, but I imagine ill get one soon.

[Gambino87]

Cover is still OP.

[VIPER2207]

Edanomel, on 18 June 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

The 'meta' changes.

i lol'ed and stoped reading here

[Lily from animove]

VIPER2207, on 18 June 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

i lol'ed and stoped reading here

well the JJ changesand fall damage may make the meta less jumpy, but FLD will always stay.

[Carrioncrows]

AssaultPig, on 18 June 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

if indirect fire is removed, how are narcs or UAVs relevant?

LRMs are fine; they are only 'overpowered' if a team is coordinated and has 1-2 mechs to spot for the boats; there's barely any situations where LRM mechs are gonna be better on a 1:1 basis than their direct fire equivalents.

I personally think that the radar deprivation module is sort of dumb; makes it a lot tougher to effectively use a weapon that already has a number of disadvantages. But really we'll have to get a bigger gameplay sample than we currently have to know for sure.

Because indirect fire is removed - --"EXCEPT when the target is hit with TAG, NARC and UAV"

And because once Indirect fire "Spotting" so to speak is removed we can increase the LRM, damage, tracking and spread and then when in used in conjunction with Tag, narc or UAV in an indirect fashion they get really mean.

Then all of a sudden we have role warfare, light mechs might attempt to dive in to plant a narc on a target, or Tag them even though they don't carry LRM's on their mechs.

Call me crazy but I would like to expand team tactics out side of hitting "R"

Then latter we could add, I dunno..C3?

[VIPER2207]

Lily from animove, on 18 June 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

well the JJ changesand fall damage may make the meta less jumpy

i don't think so... one of the members in our unit launched to the testgrounds yesterday after the patch and jumped down from the citadel on river city in a dragonslayer, trying to break his legs... took ages

[Lily from animove]

VIPER2207, on 18 June 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:

i don't think so... one of the members in our unit launched to the testgrounds yesterday after the patch and jumped down from the citadel on river city in a dragonslayer, trying to break his legs... took ages

yes because these changes have not yet been implemented, they are only announced so far since the exact numbers are still something PGI plays around with.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 June 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

willismaximus, on 18 June 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Here's my take, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I never played TT. I'm ok with radar dep simply because you have to spend a module slot and cbills to counter what amounts to a free c3 computer and information sharing, something that should cost tonnage.. People have become accustomed to hiding behind a rock the entire match and leeching off others' targeting data and doing 600+ dmg. Now they are forced to go get LOS on their own targets and keep it, or take a gamble that the shared data will still be there by the time their missiles hit.
Personally, when I use lrms, I try to use my own target data anyways so I dont waste salvos.
Bottom line , the module is good for the game by forcing lrm boats to be a bit more proactive and decide when to launch and when to hold off. I haven't used the module myself yet, but I imagine ill get one soon.

The problem with this whole 'get your own locks' idea is that getting your own locks involves.. line of sight. if you have line of sight WTF are you using LRMs? Direct fire is 10x more powerful. the only strength of LRMs is indirect fire...

[VIPER2207]

Lily from animove, on 18 June 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

yes because these changes have not yet been implemented, they are only announced so far since the exact numbers are still something PGI plays around with.

oh really? sorry then, didn't know that... i thought these changes arrived with yesterday's patch.

but anyways, when we are talking about that new insta-lock-loss-module, the only direction the meta is changing is TOWARDS poptarting, not against it.
without that module, i can (in most cases) lock on a jumping target long enough to get one LRM-volley out... depending on the distance, my LRMs will lose lock before they arrive, but some of them should still hit, because i had the lock long enough. With that new thing, it should be almost impossible to guide the LRMs long enough to let them hit... at least that's my opinion, but i will have to test this against someone who brings that module...

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

lrm's have always been a situational weapon.

lrm boats should always have a trusty scout sidekick with ecm, narc, tag, etc etc. this is when they are truly unstoppable terrain notwithstanding. In fact when i'm in a fast medium or light and i'm playing with an lrm boat in the lance i usually make it a point to take at least a tag.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 18 June 2014 - 03:32 AM.

[wanderer]

Indirect fire works as long as someone's spotting, even with radar dep.

The second you break LOS, *poof* lock goes away. Even if you've got the decay-enhancing module, which doesn't do jack vs. this one. Zip behind a little building on Frozen City for a fraction of a second and break LOS? Buh-bye lock. Scout you were targeting on Caustic runs over the top of a hill? Poof.

LRMs needed decay just to be marginally viable, especially on poptarts or fast targets. This just ends up being another great way to keep the game focused exclusively on direct-fire weaponry.

[El Bandito]

No matter if it is the mech quirks (Victor and T-Wolf), loadouts, equipments or modules, everything PGI does further reinforces the poptart meta, even if they wish to curb it.

They have no foresight.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[willismaximus]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

The problem with this whole 'get your own locks' idea is that getting your own locks involves.. line of sight. if you have line of sight WTF are you using LRMs? Direct fire is 10x more powerful. the only strength of LRMs is indirect fire...

Indirect fire still works. Your teammate just need to keep LOS. Also, indirect is certainly not the only advantage of lrms. That's the mentality that needs to go. They are a great supplemental weapon, especially on clan mechs.

Introduce proper c3, and radar dep can go.

[Carrioncrows]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

The problem with this whole 'get your own locks' idea is that getting your own locks involves.. line of sight. if you have line of sight WTF are you using LRMs? Direct fire is 10x more powerful. the only strength of LRMs is indirect fire...

Because LRM's "TRACK" your targets even if they should happen to move behind cover briefly and allows you to lob attacks over obstacles when direct fire would kiss the dirt.

Energy, Ballistic, Missile....all 3 different forms of direct damage.

Each comparable to each other with slight advantages depending on the situation. LRM's can still indirect fire but only if the target is Tagged, Narced, or under a UAV

And because the LRM's would be "Tuned" it would allow you to dumb-fire your LRM's with a lot more accuracy further reducing the effects of ECM and making it a lot less critical instead of everyone grinding away in the bubble.

This is one of the major reasons why teams stick together instead of lances branching out to take different points. Massed LRM fire. Teams might just have to employ tactics in the future.