153 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 18 June 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

No, the module needs a nerf, CLRMs need a small speed nerf. They trck to the CT and get a better total % of hits. Check your stats vs IS ones if you run them. Long, narrow stream, like a waterfall of death. Also a bit faster than IS LRMs.

Then it's good.

Dual AMS + overload module is a hard counter to Clan LRMs. Try it some time, just sit out there and watch the missiles explode like fireworks as they come in. Never mind a triple mount like the Kit Fox.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 18 June 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Dual AMS + overload module is a hard counter to Clan LRMs. Try it some time, just sit out there and watch the missiles explode like fireworks as they come in. Never mind a triple mount like the Kit Fox.

Except that the Timberwolf for example has no AMS at all save on one component and most mechs don't have dual AMS, and making Overload a required module is as bad making the new Radar Buggery module one?

Packing multi-AMS is a sacrifice in tonnage. It should give big payoffs. Having a module to buff them should have huge payoffs. That's atypical though.

[Shaio]

"You Gota Narc it...Narc it... NARC IT !!!.... Narc it Goood!! "

[Aresye]

I highly suggest rereading Rampancy's replies on changing the LRM mechanics, because he isn't talking about nerfing missiles or making them less effective. He's talking about changing the mechanics to make missiles more viable and more damaging, at the expense of pretty much nothing except player rage and (maybe) an insignificant higher level of skill that most players can adapt to.

It's literally a win-win suggestion. Players won't rage about missile mechanics as much, and missiles themselves will be more damaging and have less limitations than they currently do, ultimately making them a more viable weapon system.

[Widowmaker1981]

Trauglodyte, on 18 June 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

For the record, and I want to clear this up, I'm not slamming anyone for their thoughts on LRMs. And I'm especially not calling out Widowmaker. It just seems to me that, since Beta, the community has gone into this unimpressive and really blind "all or nothing" mind set. Yes, right now the only weapons worth using are PPCs, some ACs, and Md/Lrg Lasers. I'm hearing good things about SRMs since the patch. But, when it comes to LRMs, people get this crazy idea like you can only run LRMs. You can't back them up with anything, you can't mix and match weapons for different engagement ranges or situations, and you can't use them intelligently because spamming them indirectly for 20-25% hit rate is the best way of doing it (which means taking 2 tons of ammo per 10 tubes). THIS is what I don't get. Why is the concept of LRM brawling so horrible? What is wrong with PPCs or ACs and LRMs? I run an AWS-8V that has 2 PPCs, an ALRM15, and 2 ASRM6s and it was wonderful prior to a lot of patches. I can front load pin point damage at range with a sprinkle of LRMs to go through the holes that I just punched or I can lean on the LRMs when my heat is too high.

I agree.. LRMs do not have to be exclusively boated. (my LRM mechs are a HGN-733P w/ 2xPPC ALRM30 + 1800 shots, a GRF-3M with 1xERPPC and LRM25 + 1440 shots, and now a TBW-S with 2xCERLL and LRM40 + 1620 shots, so all have decent non LRM firepower) However, they do require a large tonnage investment in order to be worth having, notably needing 7 tons of ammo or more, and if their indirect fire ability is removed or neutered, there is simply no point using that tonnage on LRMs, when you could use ACs instead and have far, far more effective direct firepower.

EDIT: just read that advanced target decay is not completely countered by this module, and you still get a 2.5s window. That changes things, and means that this Radar deprivation module is nowhere near as silly OP as i thought. Half decent LRM mechs should/will be using ATD regardless.

Also, to people still trying to say LRMs are somehow OP as they are now.. in 1000s of drops i can count the number of times ive been killed by LRMs on the fingers of one hand. (by killed by i mean they did the majority of damage, not a random lucky last hit). I almost never use AMS. LRMs are incredibly easy to avoid, just stop sucking so much and your issues will vanish... (though i suppose in all fairness im not a brawler really)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 June 2014 - 02:16 AM.

[Funky Bacon]

Even when spotting your own targets with tag, BAP and all sorts of sensory boosting goodies, this one cheap tonnage-free module can make any effort you put into your salvo completely null. It counters everything except NARC, but that takes up missile slots and a lot of tonnage and as a missile boat you probably don't want to stand so close that a NARC can actually hit, cause you'd probably be focused to death in a sec or two.

I'm all for lock time reducing modules, but instant lock loss? that's a bit over powered for just one module slot.

[Reptilizer]

ExoForce, on 18 June 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

for mechs sake, in hundreds of games I was the ONLY LRM boat. I remember only a few occassions there were 2 or more of us...
Am I the only fool there that is wasting energy slot for a TAG?

Probably part of the problem here.

Most LRM setups i see in PUG games are actually premade 4-mans. 3 boats, 1 spotter. And they really are effective. But then, most premades are, at least more than the pure random groups.
As a solo dropper, there is far too much chance involved of not having a spotter or not having a second LRM boat or dropping with poptarts who do not even know that "R" locks targets...

[Reptilizer]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 June 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

*snip*

EDIT: just read that advanced target decay is not completely countered by this module, and you still get a 2.5s window. That changes things, and means that this Radar deprivation module is nowhere near as silly OP as i thought. Half decent LRM mechs should/will be using ATD regardless.

*snip*

Changes things? Not really. As it kills target decay without any modules, actually the spotter now needs advanced target decay.
Any spotter not having it loses the lock for him (and the LRM boat, even when equipped with target decay) immediately when LOS is broken.
This makes life for spotter and LRM boats a lot harder, because as a spotter target decay now is mandatory. Forcing even more specialization on spotters without any gain in return.
And as a solo drop LRM boat you are just screwed. The chance any non-LRM boat carries advanced target decay AND acts as spotter is zilch.
Spot your targets yourself or go home. No casual fire support, no low-threshold teamwork. Either full solo LRM-boat (which is a very mediocre weapon setup to be honest), or go with a premade.
Makes the game worse for me.

[Expired]

I tried leveling my TBR's as LRM-Boats but it really became difficult because of the new module because it also counters Adv. Target Decay completely.

I'd like to see that Adv. Target Decay somehow counters the new module. Maybe that you keep your lock for at least 1 second after your target hides instead of 2 seconds.

Edited by Expired, 20 June 2014 - 12:27 AM.

[Appogee]

So much derp about whether people who can't even see their damned target can still fire remotely-guided munitions and hit it.

The whole system of remote-locking targets is stupid. All the downstream arguments about modules which let you extend the magic remote locks or counter them are just symptoms of the inherent stupidity of the basic remote-locking system.

[Reptilizer]

Appogee, on 20 June 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

So much derp about whether people who can't even see their damned target can still fire remotely-guided munitions and hit it.

The whole system of remote-locking targets is stupid. All the downstream arguments about modules which let you extend the magic remote locks or counter them are just symptoms of the inherent stupidity of the basic remote-locking system.

You are so right. The whole concept of indirect damage or guided weapons with target information from other sources is totally unrealistic, not called for in a shooter and introducing a level of tactical depth that really nobody needs or wants.
by the way, there are quite a number of games out there that do not include such mechanics.
Why not just go and try some of them instead? How about now?

[Appogee]

Reptilizer, on 20 June 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

Why not just go and try some of them instead? How about now?

You know what, you are so right. Suggesting that one stupid remote-locking mechanic in MWO should be addressed is exactly the same as being dissatisfied with the entire game. And, completely walking away from a franchise that I've been following for 30 years would be a much better solution than my suggesting that the developers improve a flaw in its current implementation.



I swear the derp in here gets stronger by the minute.

Edited by Appogee, 20 June 2014 - 03:02 AM.

[kesuga7]

Advanced target decay and 360 target retention are now useless because of this module
if enemy mech has it equiped

[Appogee]

kesuga7, on 20 June 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

Advanced target decay and 360 target retention are now useless because of this module
if enemy mech has it equiped

Yes, two stupid magic modules which should never have existed are now invalidated by another stupid magic module which shouldn't exist.

If you all QQ hard enough, they'll invent another stupid magic module ("Radar Re-Amplification") to invalidate the stupid module which invalidated the other two stupid modules.

Or, how about they implement an intelligent and plausible radar system which friendly Mechs can all participate in, and doesn't involve line of sight at all, so that can have some true information warfare, like the one we enjoyed in MWLL?

Edited by Appogee, 20 June 2014 - 02:45 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Appogee, on 20 June 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

You know what, you are so right. Suggesting that one stupid remote-locking mechanic in MWO should be addressed is exactly the same as being dissatisfied with the entire game. And, completely walking away from a franchise that I've been following for 30 years would be a much better solution than my suggesting that the developers improve a flaw in its current implementation.



I swear the derp in here gets stronger by the minute.

Cheers and love!

Edit: With your follow up comments, my answer might have been different, you know.
Perhaps even free of sarcasm, who knows...

Edited by Reptilizer, 20 June 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Varik Ronain]

It honestly is not that big of a deal and I think it was PGIs way of dealing with the rage/qq of so many players about the indirect nature of LRMs. We still have plenty of ways of bypassing this obstacle that if you honestly want to LRM you still can fairly successfully. I know my LRM brethren and I do not see eye to eye on this but I think all LRM primary mechs should be able to deploy their own UAV and Narc their own targets. Evolve, adjust and adapt and just carry on... it really is not that bad or hard to do.

As of the time of this posting I have a combined total of 2,626 matches in the Catapult A1, C1, and C4 variants. In my catapults I have landed 3,178 narcs to the dismay of many opponents. I have killed many dragon slayers and 3d phracts by sticking a narc on them on their jump up. And guess what a narc trumps this module hands down. I have used the UAV 553 times according to the archived stats and by my estimate since the reset I have used them another 900 times at least; conservatively that means I have dropped a UAV 1453 times.

If I can do it so can you, this module just made it so I do not fire salvos needlessly!


Here is a post Clan release screenshot of a defeat I had the other day on caustic. Yes people used the new module and they even had ECM coverage. EDIT: I only use 2 LRM 15+Artemis so a total of LRM 30




If we take out the really good matches and the matches where I play subpar my average matches look like this.

Edited by Varik Ronain, 20 June 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Varik Ronain, on 20 June 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

It honestly is not that big of a deal and I think it was PGIs way of dealing with the rage/qq of so many players about the indirect nature of LRMs. We still have plenty of ways of bypassing this obstacle that if you honestly want to LRM you still can fairly successfully. I know my LRM brethren and I do not see eye to eye on this but I think all LRM primary mechs should be able to deploy their own UAV and Narc their own targets. Evolve, adjust and adapt and just carry on... it really is not that bad or hard to do.

As of the time of this posting I have a combined total of 2,626 matches in the Catapult A1, C1, and C4 variants. In my catapults I have landed 3,178 narcs to the dismay of many opponents. I have killed many dragon slayers and 3d phracts by sticking a narc on them on their jump up. And guess what a narc trumps this module hands down. I have used the UAV 553 times according to the archived stats and by my estimate since the reset I have used them another 900 times at least; conservatively that means I have dropped a UAV 1453 times.

If I can do it so can you, this module just made it so I do not fire salvos needlessly!

You are playing LRMs rambo style. No doubt you excel in that. But to conclude from there that it is no great issue for all the other ones that actually did use spotters is plain wrong.

Drop your UAV/NARC: You have to be near to do this. Wasting a potential range advantage of your LRMs. Also, you never carried NARC on your C1 i bet and even on a C4 it is somewhat debatable if the loss of firepower rectifies this.

Evolve, adjust, adapt all to become solo LRM rambos? Why? Why throw away a tactical element of the game without any need?

Do not get me wrong, i also play rambo in my C1. TAGing my own targets and stuff and it is fun and i kill stuff. But it is a very mediocre mech for its weight and if my TAGs do not benefit another few LRMs on the team, my team would actually be far better off with me being in my Jager...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Varik Ronain, on 20 June 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

It honestly is not that big of a deal and I think it was PGIs way of dealing with the rage/qq of so many players about the indirect nature of LRMs. We still have plenty of ways of bypassing this obstacle that if you honestly want to LRM you still can fairly successfully. I know my LRM brethren and I do not see eye to eye on this but I think all LRM primary mechs should be able to deploy their own UAV and Narc their own targets. Evolve, adjust and adapt and just carry on... it really is not that bad or hard to do.

As of the time of this posting I have a combined total of 2,626 matches in the Catapult A1, C1, and C4 variants. In my catapults I have landed 3,178 narcs to the dismay of many opponents. I have killed many dragon slayers and 3d phracts by sticking a narc on them on their jump up. And guess what a narc trumps this module hands down. I have used the UAV 553 times according to the archived stats and by my estimate since the reset I have used them another 900 times at least; conservatively that means I have dropped a UAV 1453 times.

If I can do it so can you, this module just made it so I do not fire salvos needlessly!


Here is a post Clan release screenshot of a defeat I had the other day on caustic. Yes people used the new module and they even had ECM coverage. EDIT: I only use 2 LRM 15+Artemis so a total of LRM 30

If we take out the really good matches and the matches where I play subpar my average matches look like this.

Problem is, I'm only...so far...seeing 2-3 people per match running the module. It's kind of like Seismic, it hasn't trickled down to the masses yet.

It's also expensive, so you may not ever see it in derp land.

The problem is once again, LRMs are good against derps, and suck against anyone with common sense. And PGI keeps reinforcing that with this stupid mechanics and hard counters.

[Varik Ronain]

Reptilizer, on 20 June 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

You are playing LRMs rambo style. No doubt you excel in that. But to conclude from there that it is no great issue for all the other ones that actually did use spotters is plain wrong.

Drop your UAV/NARC: You have to be near to do this. Wasting a potential range advantage of your LRMs. Also, you never carried NARC on your C1 i bet and even on a C4 it is somewhat debatable if the loss of firepower rectifies this.

Evolve, adjust, adapt all to become solo LRM rambos? Why? Why throw away a tactical element of the game without any need?

Do not get me wrong, i also play rambo in my C1. TAGing my own targets and stuff and it is fun and i kill stuff. But it is a very mediocre mech for its weight and if my TAGs do not benefit another few LRMs on the team, my team would actually be far better off with me being in my Jager...

The C1 is not a narc cat you are correct there but the C4 I always carry it... recently I have been sporting 2 of them... seriously.. no joke. I dont think of it as being "rambo" I am the scout and lrm support all rolled into 1. You have plenty of time to take advantage of a UAV you drop. I added some screenies and added that I do all my lurming with just 30 per shot.(LRM30)

Edited by Varik Ronain, 20 June 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[ExoForce]

First you freaked me up, so Ive checked Alpine and Caustic. Still doing ridiculous huge high amount of damage on them with my Stalky.Testing continues, I will log postbattle data for my chronicles.