61 replies to this topic

[Utilyan]

Fixed-Flamer........I think that is so cool! Historically accurate according to sarna http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adder_(Puma)

So it wouldn't be a Adder if it didn't have the fixed flamer.

[Harathan]

Mockeryangel, on 18 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

You should shave that neckbeard.

Yeah, I guess expecting a Mechwarrior game to have anything to do with Battletech is completely crazy.

Edited by Harathan, 18 June 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Koniving, on 18 June 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

stuff

But it's definitely reason for flamers to be rebalanced into something useful.

So if they did make that Adder's 1 (one) Flamer useful, I wonder what carrying 4-5 would be like? LOL!

[MaddMaxx]

FupDup, on 18 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Because the engineers who designed it were dipshits. That's really the most accurate way to put it.

Flamers were semi-functional in the BT but they were still garbage anyways -- the engineers weren't good enough at SSW min-maxing to realize this. If they truly knew what they were doing, they would have made it an ER Small Laser for more range and damage.

But who is to say that the designers did not have enough space, limited cabling, gimbling room blah blah blah to add that erSL and found that a Flamer, with a direct feeder hose assembly fit perfectly and easily fit in the Adder design plan.

[FupDup]

MaddMaxx, on 18 June 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

But who is to say that the designers did not have enough space, limited cabling, gimbling room blah blah blah to add that erSL and found that a Flamer, with a direct feeder hose assembly fit perfectly and easily fit in the Adder design plan.

Space wouldn't be an issue, because both items occupy one critical slot. I dunno about cables and stuff, because both are energy weapons and require the similar heat (3 for Flamer, 2 for ERSL).

[Ultimax]

Harathan, on 18 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Yeah, I guess expecting a Mechwarrior game to have anything to do with Battletech is completely crazy.

The game can be battletech in theme and spirit, without being a complete slave to every single design decision made for a table top miniatures wargame 30 years ago whether or not those rules translate well to a fast paced video game.


Locking table top miniatures into specific designs helps those companies sell you more expansion books and more miniatures and then they can wrap whatever story they want around that like "it's used for burning down trees" or "it's used to light the cigars of Dire Wolves" or "Edition 7e the new, new, super improved version to invalidate the things you already own so you will buy more stuff so we can stay in business." (Games Workshop for example, uses this strategy extensively).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 June 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Zongoose]

I've used the flamer to good effect, especially when fighting a Nova up close. Don't discount it's utility too quickly, it might not always be useful but sometimes it really saves your bacon! It's only half a ton so don't worry about it.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Clans tried to re-engineer the 20th century dashboard cigarette lighter & got carried away.

Think of how badass you'd look in 3049 using a flamethrower to light your post victory cigar.

What a great social media portrait that would make.

That level of awesome (no pun intended) shouldn't be optional.

It should be mandatory.

Hence, they're non-removable!

[Koniving]

MaddMaxx, on 18 June 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

So if they did make that Adder's 1 (one) Flamer useful, I wonder what carrying 4-5 would be like? LOL!

I imagine they'd be too hot to use.

But in TT, Flamers (damage mode), MG, and AC/2 all did 2 damage.

In lore, flamers and MGs are constant fire weapons. The AC/2 is 'fired between 4 and 10 times'.
This size of AC/2, 40mm, is described like this...

and fires 8 times at 0.25 damage each to acquire 2 damage. An AC/5 at 40mm (the smallest size for an AC/5) is fired 20 times to achieve that damage. Meanwhile the largest AC/5, 120mm, is fired 3 times.

(Fun fact, he says 4 pounds per shell. At the lore proper 45 ratings per ton of ammo and 8 shots per rating, that's 360 rounds per ton of ammo, 1440 pounds, then you have the crate holding them, and since the only 40mm AC/2 I found is a burst fire and cassette [magazine] fed, the rest of the weight is in the crate and the magazines holding each volley of 8 shots.
Meanwhile the the Whirlwind-L AC/2 of the Blackjack is a 30mm, 10 shot = 2 damage weapon, automatic and belt fed [so it fires like the MWO Inner Sphere AC/2, with each of those being 0.2 damage and the result being 2 damage in about 10 seconds or less.
The MG, at 20 to 25mm [AC/2's minimum is apparently 25mm], does not fire saboted HEAP rounds but instead regular bullets. Like the LAV on Battlefield 4's 20mm vulcan cannon, MGs are great for tearing through thin concrete, wooden obstacles, sawing enemies in half, but requires lots of bullets to do it. For 1 ton you get 200 ratings, which is one rating per box of ammo, which for half ton machine guns tends to be between 500 and a thousand rounds per box. You essentially get between 100,000 to 200,000 rounds per box, with each bullet doing between 0.00002 and 0.00001 damage. Obviously not possible to replicate in MWO.
Meanwhile in the same time the Whirlwind-L AC/2 pumps out 10 shots, and the MG pumps out 100,000 rounds, the Flamer melts about the same amount of armor in the same amount of time.)

But in MWO..
The MG does 8 damage per 10 seconds. (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The Flamer does 7 damage per 10 seconds. (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The AC/2 now does 26 damage per 10 seconds. (Previously 32, before that 38). (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The medium laser does 15 in 10 seconds; (in source, 5 in 10 seconds).
The AC/5 now does 35 in 10 seconds. (Previously 35. Before that 40.) [in source, 5 in 10 seconds].

Even using Solaris 7 rules, which are pretty much slaps in the face, that's still 2 damage for AC/2s, flamers, and MGs in 4 seconds I believe? Or was it 4.5 or 5? Not sure.

Just food for thought.

Edited by Koniving, 18 June 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 18 June 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

But in MWO..
The MG does 8 damage per 10 seconds.
The Flamer does 7 damage per 10 seconds.
The AC/2 now does 26 damage per 10 seconds. (Previously 32, before that 38).
The medium laser does 15 in 10 seconds; (in source, 5 in 10 seconds).
The AC/5 now does 35 in 10 seconds. (Previously 35. Before that 40.) [in source, 5 in 10 seconds].

Just food for thought.

Does look like we are getting closer though.

Whether we will continue to get closer is another matter, naturally

[Wingbreaker]

When I think "Man, if I only had half a ton more!" it is never on the Adder.

[MaddMaxx]

FupDup, on 18 June 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Space wouldn't be an issue, because both items occupy one critical slot. I dunno about cables and stuff, because both are energy weapons and require the similar heat (3 for Flamer, 2 for ERSL).

But one needs to be fed from the Reactor (plasma) assembly, the other not. Likely a very different design/ engineering challenge.

[Sephlock]

Scratx, on 18 June 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Everybody who bothered to check Sarna (and lots of posts have mentioned it even then) knew the Adder comes with a fixed flamer.

It's half a ton, nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Thats the problem .

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Meh, it is only .5 tons and it was announced pretty early one. In fact I think it was mentioned in the same post when they told us how they intended to follow table top construction rules for engines, crit slots, etc.

Just use it to blind the IS lights/mediums that are running you down.

[MaddMaxx]

Koniving, on 18 June 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I imagine they'd be too hot to use.

But in TT, Flamers (damage mode), MG, and AC/2 all did 2 damage.

In lore, flamers and MGs are constant fire weapons. The AC/2 is 'fired between 4 and 10 times'.
This size of AC/2, 40mm, is described like this...

and fires 8 times at 0.25 damage each to acquire 2 damage. An AC/5 at 40mm (the smallest size for an AC/5) is fired 20 times to achieve that damage. Meanwhile the largest AC/5, 120mm, is fired 3 times.

(Fun fact, he says 4 pounds per shell. At the lore proper 45 ratings per ton of ammo and 8 shots per rating, that's 360 rounds per ton of ammo, 1440 pounds, then you have the crate holding them, and since the only 40mm AC/2 I found is a burst fire and cassette [magazine] fed, the rest of the weight is in the crate and the magazines holding each volley of 8 shots.
Meanwhile the the Whirlwind-L AC/2 of the Blackjack is a 30mm, 10 shot = 2 damage weapon, automatic and belt fed [so it fires like the MWO Inner Sphere AC/2, with each of those being 0.2 damage and the result being 2 damage in about 10 seconds or less.
The MG, at 20 to 25mm [AC/2's minimum is apparently 25mm], does not fire saboted HEAP rounds but instead regular bullets. Like the LAV on Battlefield 4's 20mm vulcan cannon, MGs are great for tearing through thin concrete, wooden obstacles, sawing enemies in half, but requires lots of bullets to do it. For 1 ton you get 200 ratings, which is one rating per box of ammo, which for half ton machine guns tends to be between 500 and a thousand rounds per box. You essentially get between 100,000 to 200,000 rounds per box, with each bullet doing between 0.00002 and 0.00001 damage. Obviously not possible to replicate in MWO.
Meanwhile in the same time the Whirlwind-L AC/2 pumps out 10 shots, and the MG pumps out 100,000 rounds, the Flamer melts about the same amount of armor in the same amount of time.)

But in MWO..
The MG does 8 damage per 10 seconds. (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The Flamer does 7 damage per 10 seconds. (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The AC/2 now does 26 damage per 10 seconds. (Previously 32, before that 38). (Source, 2 damage in 10)
The medium laser does 15 in 10 seconds; (in source, 5 in 10 seconds).
The AC/5 now does 35 in 10 seconds. (Previously 35. Before that 40.) [in source, 5 in 10 seconds].

Even using Solaris 7 rules, which are pretty much slaps in the face, that's still 2 damage for AC/2s, flamers, and MGs in 4 seconds I believe? Or was it 4.5 or 5? Not sure.

Just food for thought.

Ummm, thanks for all that, I guess. My point. When any 1 weapon is considered useful by the players, many of them together will always tend to be OP.

If they made the Flamer (singular) useful, they would likely have to add it to the Ghost Heat List.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 18 June 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Space wouldn't be an issue, because both items occupy one critical slot. I dunno about cables and stuff, because both are energy weapons and require the similar heat (3 for Flamer, 2 for ERSL).

In this instance, the ER SL wouldn't have the ability to deal with any threats on the ground.
The Flamer, however, could light an inferno in front of the mech making it too hot to approach and burning down cover. Also a Flamer in TT is used to create smoke screens. Starting fires can mask approaches and thermal signatures, resulting in being very difficult to find with thermals through the smoke and fire.

An ER SL... it'd be about useless against infantry and battle armor, and no masked approaches.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 18 June 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

In this instance, the ER SL wouldn't have the ability to deal with any threats on the ground.
The Flamer, however, could light an inferno in front of the mech making it too hot to approach and burning down cover. Also a Flamer in TT is used to create smoke screens. Starting fires can mask approaches and thermal signatures, resulting in being very difficult to find with thermals through the smoke and fire.

An ER SL... it'd be about useless against infantry and battle armor, and no masked approaches.

If they really needed anti-infantry that badly (if kiting them by walking backwards every turn with normal guns wouldn't be enough), then they could just make use of the mech's omnipods and make an alternate config with Flamers or w/e mounted on it. Having it on the base config at all times means that there are a lot of fights when it isn't useful at all. The ERSL would be decent (not great, but decent) in any battle.

[Koniving]

MaddMaxx, on 18 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Ummm, thanks for all that, I guess. My point. When any 1 weapon is considered useful by the players, many of them together will always tend to be OP.

If they made the Flamer (singular) useful, they would likely have to add it to the Ghost Heat List.

Don't think they'll need to. Heat retention fries its usefulness already. Probably the one reason people complain most.


For other people who are watching and reading its title... This isn't a bug. This is Heat Retention as Paul once called it in a post about the flamer, which affects flamers, medium lasers, large lasers, small lasers. It does not affect any pulse lasers, ACs, PPCs, or missiles. The flamer's heat raising ability is also 'heat retention', which applies on the target.

Heat retention punishes non-stop use to ensure that heat neutrality can never be achieved. Even though we accomplish pretty close to it regardless.

Honestly instead of running a constant flame, I think all the issues they had with it could be solved by using the Hotshot flamer variant. Shoots a ball of reactor plasma (ballistic style shot and reload). On impact, it 'splashes' said plasma on the mech, spreading and thusly dividing its damage over several body sections and causing heat. Due to the reload, it can't be abused even in bulk, could never perma-lock a mech into shutdown (by means of just one player), and if the heat increases stop before the flamer can fire again even that won't be an issue.

In other news, here's how to abuse current flamers (which the hotshot variant would easily fix and remove).

Spoiler

[Ultimax]

This is why we shouldn't keep bad design carry overs because of "lore".


From Sarna

Small Laser
The Small Laser focuses a beam of light on targets to cause damage. The compact size of the Small Laser allows it to be equipped and used efficiently on practically anything; however the reduced firepower means that Small Lasers are not usually used on heavier combat devices such as 'Mechs or tanks. Small lasers can also be mounted on battle armor or used as an infantry support weapon by conventional infantry, where it is referred to as a "Support Laser."


Timberwolf: Alt. Config. A
Configured specifically for long range, direct fire combat, the A configuration of the Timber Wolf is armed with a pair of ER PPCs. These give the Timber Wolf A the capability of stripping nearly two tons of armor off of an enemy 'Mech at extreme ranges.
For close combat, the A configuration has three Medium Pulse Lasers, an ER Small Laser,
and a Streak SRM-6 to find any weak points in an enemy's armor.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 June 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Piney II]

I Zeratul I, on 18 June 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Clans tried to re-engineer the 20th century dashboard cigarette lighter & got carried away.

Think of how badass you'd look in 3049 using a flamethrower to light your post victory cigar.

What a great social media portrait that would make.

That level of awesome (no pun intended) shouldn't be optional.

It should be mandatory.

Hence, they're non-removable!

ROFLMAO!