24 replies to this topic

[Hornviech]

What do you think about Clan ACs.

The Clans have no weapons which will do more then 10 damage to one location as the IS AC 20 do.

I think at least the Clan Standard ACs should do that too.

The Clan Weapons have to many disadvantages

longer Beam time for the Lasers
Burst fire on all ACs
More Ghost heat.

thats no balance!

[Demoncard]

Standard Clan ACs are supposed to be able to switch ammo types between Clan LBX and standard Clan AC shells. Clan ACs don't do that yet because PGI's still working on it. Clan

Edited by Demoncard, 10 July 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Vanguard836]

Clan gauss rifle does 15 damage, same as IS version.

[Karamarka]

C Ultra AC/2 is really bad. I'l give you that one.

Edited by Karamarka, 10 July 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Only clan weapon better than IS is the ppc.


Lrms are better on IS for now. Maybe they will be equal when they have no minium range.
AC weapons IS wins
Lasers are about the same.
Gauss is the same.

[Hornviech]

The Clan PPC does 10 dmg plus splash dmg what was it 2.5 x2 or something.

The IS PPC does 10 dmg as it supposed to be.
The Clan PPC should do 15 dmg as it supposed to be.

[zhajin]

Monkey Lover, on 10 July 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Only clan weapon better than IS is the ppc.


Lrms are better on IS for now. Maybe they will be equal when they have no minium range.
AC weapons IS wins
Lasers are about the same.
Gauss is the same.

this is true if you completely ignore the damage per heat and damage per ton metrics.....

[Charons Little Helper]

Sum up of the OP - "The pixels I paid $ for don't let me PWN as much as I want!"

[Angel of Annihilation]

Monkey Lover, on 10 July 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Only clan weapon better than IS is the ppc.


Lrms are better on IS for now. Maybe they will be equal when they have no minium range.
AC weapons IS wins
Lasers are about the same.
Gauss is the same.

This is debatable in my opinion.

For one the IS can mount a standard PPC which while shorter ranged and has a 90m minimum range, is massively more heat efficient. The 5 splash damage is inconsequential.

As far as lasers, don't get my started. The extra range on a Clan ER-LL does not make up for the 50% longer pulse duration, slower re-fire rate and longer exposure time as compared to the IS versions. The Clan versions of the LPL is even worse with a near double burn time. Don't get me wrong, they are great for causing damage.....ALL OVER THE ENEMY MECH. But I can guarentee you the IS versions can concentrate more damage on a critical location, ALOT faster than the Clan versions can. This concentrated fire is what actually KILLS the enemy, not 1-2 damage being spread all over every inch of their mech.

I will concede that the Clan ER Med Laser is truly excellent but that is the ONLY clan laser that is good.

Clan ACs suffer from the spread as well. Unless an enemy is just standing there, it is almost impossible to concentrate a full UAC/20 burst into one location. Instead you get maybe 5 Damage in the CT, 5 in the LT, 5 in the left arm and 5 damage wasted as a clean miss.

The only thing I agree with is that Gauss is the same and that IS LRMs are in general better, although the lighter weight Clan Launchers mean you can typically carry more tubes to help make up the difference if you so choose.

One thing I want to mention. Clan weapons are typically great at putting out damage so yeah you will see larger damage numbers at the end of the match in clan mechs. However, that damage is generally spread everywhere across a mech they are engaging. Basically they lack the same "Kill Power" that IS weapons do.

[Mad Ox]

Clans weapons being twisted to do damage over longer time is rather annoying but vs their other benefits and in order to keep IS on the playing field other thens some tweaks think its about right on.

- Lasers durations being longer
- Missiles firing in a stream vs 1 big bunch.
- AC's firing bursts instead of IS firing 1 big slug

Laser duration i find to not be to bad a thing sure I fire for a bit longer then IS. But as I out range them done right they can't return fire during this time anyway. Perfect example is ERLL max range on it allows me to plink away at far mechs while their return fire does nothing to me. Considering they are Point and shoot no travel time (no travel time being very key) the duration is a minor inconvenience. Even the Pulse Weapons which number wise don't make any sense for the added weight over an ER version, still seem to be rather nasty. Started using LPL and MPL to figure out what use they are and they remind me of the clan AC's Multiple "Rounds" fired, in this case mulitple laser shots fired each one concentrating its amount of damage far better then ER version. Add on they have no travel time they are much easier to get on target then AC rounds flying around, so while yes weighs more then ER a pulse is sorta the bridge between Laser and Ballistic, sure weighs a little more but in comparison to how much similar AC would weigh the Pulse is still Much much lighter.

Missiles - big group for IS or stream for clan both have advantages Big group easier to get through AMS and burst damage enemy. Stream due to OUT of Sight in general use of lrms can be handy too how often have wee seen some small object get between us and enemy soak up entire Group from a IS launch.. While Clan assuming enemy is moving sure will lose a couple missiles but not all of them on object. Add on much much lighter versions Clan has PGI balanced them well in my opinion. SRM's dont use all that much so really can't comment on but they do seem to be pretty even only oddity being Streaks but with such limited range don't see this as a huge advantage.

Ballistics - while IS is heavier firing 1 big slug has definite advantages to it concentrate damage easier for sure. but minus is you miss total waste while clan version sure damage more spread around but a miss can be "corrected". Honestly to me it makes sense from weight point of view Clan saves weight with smaller gun but firing more shots effectively. This even fits into Battletech descriptions of AC's. What I would love to see is both IS and Clan having both options 1 slug vs multiple shots. Less shot means weight goes up, clan would still weigh less but the weight savings would not be as much.

All in PGi did a few odd things but think there way of putting in Clan tech was a very good good/bad setup and well done to not allow clan to totally overwhelm IS as badly as they do in miniatures game. Good job keepign thins competitive but still bring the right feel of it to the game they made clan stronger but IS stays strong ends up being all in how the PILOT uses the mech
.

Edited by Mad Ox, 10 July 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[ztac]

The real problem is that on the tabletop a clan mech is more powerful than it's IS counterpart (So I am lead to believe), however we are in a game that is not a tabletop one and multiplayer at that, so they tried to make things balanced whilst trying to at least make the clans different.

[Zypher]

ztac, on 10 July 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

The real problem is that on the tabletop a clan mech is more powerful than it's IS counterpart (So I am lead to believe), however we are in a game that is not a tabletop one and multiplayer at that, so they tried to make things balanced whilst trying to at least make the clans different.

They had to go that route, otherwise the IS population for CW would likely be too low if clan mechs were just more powerful across the board, even in 10:12 or something other variation. I would have like to at least have seen it tested.

[Enigmos]

Not to mention that some clan weapons appear to have a problem registering a hit.

Last night on Alpine a spider came to a dead stop right under my cross hairs. Maybe he was surprised, more likely he was looking for his END key, but my C-LBX20 was fully cooled and loaded. I took the shot. The spider didn't move for a subjective second. All 20 pellets passed completely through his torso yet he was undamaged. Listening around we came up with the impression that a third of the time some clan weapons do not register a hit even when it is clear the shot was accurate.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 10 July 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Phlinger]

I've noticed that accidental friendly fire is at an all-time high since Clan Lasers hit the live servers. With the increased burn-time and not wanting to stare down the opponent, if you twist half-way through a beam and a friendly is moving in close, you will rake the beam across their back-side. I've switched my tactics a bit and usually just decide to finish my beams on target lately regardless of how much FLD I get to my CT in retaliation in order to prevent any collateral damage to friendlies.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mad Ox, on 10 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Laser duration i find to not be to bad a thing sure I fire for a bit longer then IS. But as I out range them done right they can't return fire during this time anyway. Perfect example is ERLL max range on it allows me to plink away at far mechs while their return fire does nothing to me. Considering they are Point and shoot no travel time (no travel time being very key) the duration is a minor inconvenience. Even the Pulse Weapons which number wise don't make any sense for the added weight over an ER version, still seem to be rather nasty. Started using LPL and MPL to figure out what use they are and they remind me of the clan AC's Multiple "Rounds" fired, in this case mulitple laser shots fired each one concentrating its amount of damage far better then ER version. Add on they have no travel time they are much easier to get on target then AC rounds flying around, so while yes weighs more then ER a pulse is sorta the bridge between Laser and Ballistic, sure weighs a little more but in comparison to how much similar AC would weigh the Pulse is still Much much lighter.

See this is where I disagree. Everyone keep pointing at the range of Clan ER LLs but the reality is that most combat takes place under 500m in game. Hell lets just for the fun of it extend that envelope out to 650m for the max range that 90% of the combat that takes place in the game. Even at 650m, an IS ER LL can do full damage and it can do that damage in 1 second vs 1.5 seconds with a Clan ER LL. The clear point about range is that if it is only useful 10% or less of the time, just how much of a real advantage is it?

Additionally as I pointed out, most combat is really at actually 500m or less. At those ranges, a standard IS Large Laser is doing max damage or very near to it while being TREMENDOUSLY COOLER than a Clan ER LL. So now your are comparing a 1.5 second pulse and much hotter for the Clan ER LL, vs a 1.0 second pulse and much cooler for a IS standard LL.

Plus you have to take into account that due to the pulse duration you can fire an IS LL or ER LL three times in the same span that you can fire an Clan ER LL twice.

Now sure a Clan ER LL has a bit more damage, 11.25 I believe, but that is spread over the 1.5 second pulse. This means that a Clan ER LL is only doing 7.5 damage in the same 1 second duration that an IS ER LL or LL will do 9 damage. You only get the bonus damage IF you manage to hold the pulse on target that extra 0.5 seconds. Which brings us to another thing, exposure time.

The IS mech equiped with an ER LL or LL steps out, fires and does 9 damage in 1 second at which point he can defensively torso twist or move back into cover. In that same 1 second, the Clan mech equiped with a Clan ER LL only manages 7.5 damage and is locked in place for another 0.5 seconds if he doesn't want to waste the extra damage. However, when your taking fire, 0.5 seconds is an eternity and can mean the different between an enemy missing you entirely or a crippled or killed mech.

Further then you have to consider that the Clan LPL is not only shorter ranged than a IS ER LL, but a ton heavier AND still has a 0.1 second longer burn duration. I mean seriously, a Clan Large Pulse laser having a longer burn duration than a IS ER LL or LL??? If PGI or anyone can't see how adversely unbalanced that is, there must be something wrong with them.

My personal opinion is that PGI decide to release clan weapons that were by and large balanced on the side of caution and while some of them like the Clan ER medium laser are generally fine, many, especially the majority of Clan Laser weaponry, need a buff. However unless we speak up, the clans are going to be stuck with a few very subpar weapons.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Longer burn time was a pretty half assed way to balance it, would have just been easier to have them use a longer cooldown timer, right now ERLL feels like a mech light saber.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ronyn, on 10 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I've noticed that accidental friendly fire is at an all-time high since Clan Lasers hit the live servers. With the increased burn-time and not wanting to stare down the opponent, if you twist half-way through a beam and a friendly is moving in close, you will rake the beam across their back-side. I've switched my tactics a bit and usually just decide to finish my beams on target lately regardless of how much FLD I get to my CT in retaliation in order to prevent any collateral damage to friendlies.

Yes this is happening alot. It isn't even them twisting necessary its simply that the beam duration is so long that people actually walk into it as it is still firing. Additionally if you are actually firing and you see a friendly walking into your beam, even trying to move your crosshairs off him, often means your going to have to drag it across another friendly.

It is also very hard to get off any sort of shots without hitting a friendly if you have to be bunched. You might think you have a wide open target shooting between two friendlies but with a 1.5 second burn time, often as not someone is going to get in the way before the burst ends.

So yet another reason why Clan ER LLs suck.

[ztac]

What do I think about clan weapons and ergo IS weapons....

There should allways be a Risk vs Damage factor to weapons. New concept for anyone I wonder?

Basically longer range and less time in open = less damage , closer range more time in the open = more damage. Indirect fire should be a paltry amount as it probably has the smallest amount of risk in the game.

Burst weapons therefore should be less whilst long duration should be more , but we don't do that in Battletech games do we!

[Signal27]

Hornviech, on 10 July 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

What do you think about Clan ACs.

I think they weigh less and take up less slots than IS ACs do.

[Foxfire]

I think all AC's should function like Clan AC's, with the exception of the AC-2's.

That change a long time ago would have fixed so many things with this game that have plagued it for so long.