156 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Jack Corban, on 23 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Thats some bullshit seriously. The Direwolve has allways been short to medium range oriented in its weapon loadouts. And it is a Spearhead Assaultmech ment to storm enemy positions and tear them a new one. It is well balanced with its speed and Torsotwist. There is absolutly no reason to make it a 100 ton Bullseye DoA Trashcan with its current Hitboxes. The Direwolve is a very teamdependent mech and that won't change with better hitboxes. Right now its just a joke. **** i'm going heads on with a Direwolve in my squishy little nova and you know what 8/10 times i win. Thats just wrong. It has lost its scarefactor completly.

Are you looking at the Same Dire Wolf I know? The one bristling with ERPPCs, Gauss, AC2s and ER large lasers??? Heck even The LPL have a 20 hex range? Medium to short? I think not.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 June 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

I played a -B recently with quad gauss and 7T of ammo. To get that I had 50pts of armor on the arms and legs and the front RT and LT. Rear armor was 10pts in all slots and the front CT was max, which was 114pts I think. Even with stripped down armor and exploding gauss rifles all over my mech, I never once died to a side torso kill. I did loose a single side torso once or twice, but every death was a CT kill. Now, I am not a superb player, but I do know what torso twisting is. The DW is like my catapults, only worse. In my cats I usually get CT killed about 80% of the time. The DW is, so far, 100%. Heck, one match I was directly facing a PPC sniper who was about 500m out and slightly above me. He snapped a shot at the top of my mech and actually landed it on the REAR CT. I was facing him full on, and the slightly higher position he was in was enough to hit something that counted as rear CT. I don't want the Dire Wolf to become god-like, but you have to admit that it's hit boxes are screwed up.

[Whatzituyah]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

yes, it really does. Because otherwise it becomes the Death Star, incinerating anything in front of it.


When the Stalker can realistically carry over 120 damage alpha, let's talk.
DWF-PRIME

or a 75pt PPFLD alpha
DWF-PRIME
Yes, it works, though you really only want to use that 3rd PPC on special occasions.

For the second one what about this? DWF-PRIME Mixed Config This way you can take advantage of some of the quirk bonuses. If you could find a way to do that with the first one same goes with the first.

EDIT: Heres my idea of the first DWF-PRIME Mixed Config 2

Edited by Whatzituyah, 23 June 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 23 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I don't think it needs more mobility, it just needs to have that borked CT hit box fixed. I actually like the fact that it handles like a land yacht, but then my Atlases all have Standard 300s in them so I'm used to piloting land yachts.

The Daishi isn't a brawling Mech. It's a slugger. It's not Floyd Mayweather, it's Tank Abbott.

But I don't think that it's balanced as-is. It's broken as-is. You can't take the results of a few elite players (who can do 800+ damage in a Jenner) and use their results to argue it's balanced.

In they hands of an average player, and Atlas is a much better Mech than a Daishi because it can actually take a little bit of damage before getting thrashed. I'm not elite, but I'm pretty good, and in my Elo band I'm watching Daishis go down in less than 10 seconds. They're literally dead before they can stop and throw it into reverse. That's just not balanced.

Fixing the borked CT hit box might at least give them the chance to lose a side torso instead of instantly dying, which means they at least get to play in that match for a little while longer.

fixed that CT and I think you will see them become dang near unstoppable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Whatzituyah, on 23 June 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

For the second one what about this? DWF-PRIME Mixed Config This way you can take advantage of some of the quirk bonuses. If you could find a way to do that with the first one same goes with the first.

EDIT: Heres my idea of the first DWF-PRIME Mixed Config 2

could work. I was jsut throwing really quick build to prove a point. They certainly are in no way optimized, so your ideas probably will be a plus. I'll look at them a little more tomorrow maybe and see what clciks when my brain is clicking.

[Ozeo]

Would be nice if we could get some official word about the DW, could we get a dev of some sort to weigh in and say what if anything could happen for it?

This is the 7th topic i have seen on this matter generate more then 3 pages, and it hasn't even been a week yet.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Finally unlocked double basics on my Dire Wolf and it is like a completely different mech. Durability has greatly increased. I still think the CT is a bit of an issue, though. However, based on my experiences today I strongly believe that a strengthened armor (~10-12%) quirk on the CT of the Prime and A configurations would be all that is needed.

Also, now that we have seen such quirks it sure would be nice to give something similar to those poor Awesomes, Dragons, etc. to help with their hit box issues.

With a bit more experience with the Dire Wolf I have also come to the conclusion that you should play it as a siege weapon early on. Stay a little ways back and unload on anyone who peeks their head out. Once a few mechs go down and some damage has been traded start moving in. At this stage it seems just about every mech you run across will quickly explode from your massive fire power, often on the first alpha.This is of course for solo pug play. If you have a group or think you can count on support then you have more options. A well supported Dire Wolf pretty scary.

Edited by Rouken, 23 June 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Lucas the Old]

The problems with the center toso hitbox is not just in the Direwolf. I think it's in most of the assault mechs. I have read the posts where a single ERPPC or Gauss cannon shot completely destroys the CT of an assault mech. Now if the said mech has had earlier damage, then yes, one of these attacks could take them down. But this happened to me recently. I have been running an AS7 D-DC, full ECM. I was in the Tormalaine desert gathering component points. I had made it to one of the sites untouched by anything. My armor was pristine. I then saw a red triangle coming in my direction, from behind a ridge. No direct LOS, so he didn't know I was there.
1) I targetted him (A Locust) I aimed at where I thought he would come out into the open.
2) I hit my advanced zoom and waited.
3) He came out in the right spot and I Alpha fired (2 ER large laser, AC20, 3 SRM6)
I blew his Left leg completely off, but I heat spiked.. As I was cooling, he opened fire with 2 Machine guns. When I was up I turned and resighted him and fired my AC20 and SRM's. Destroyed him, and heat spiked again. When I came back up, I heard that lovely voice say "Center torso critical damage."
He had fired for no more than 5 or 6 seconds. Now my front CT armor is 104 points. and MG ammo only does 0.08 damage. Are you telling me he fired almost 1300 rounds in 6 seconds? I don't think so. I think this is a glitch that needs to be addressed.

[Blue Boutique]

Bluetavius, on 23 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Almost, but assault mechs always lead the charge right?

Assaults should more like shock troops. Nothing brings dread to a few damaged enemy mechs when they witness a fresh assault bearing their way.

[Triskelion]

Rouken, on 23 June 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Finally unlocked double basics on my Dire Wolf and it is like a completely different mech. Durability has greatly increased. I still think the CT is a bit of an issue, though. However, based on my experiences today I strongly believe that a strengthened armor (~10-12%) quirk on the CT of the Prime and A configurations would be all that is needed.

Also, now that we have seen such quirks it sure would be nice to give something similar to those poor Awesomes, Dragons, etc. to help with their hit box issues.

With a bit more experience with the Dire Wolf I have also come to the conclusion that you should play it as a siege weapon early on. Stay a little ways back and unload on anyone who peeks their head out. Once a few mechs go down and some damage has been traded start moving in. At this stage it seems just about every mech you run across will quickly explode from your massive fire power, often on the first alpha.This is of course for solo pug play. If you have a group or think you can count on support then you have more options. A well supported Dire Wolf pretty scary.

That's the issue I have with it in the first place. It's not a siege weapon, it's a corner camping weapon because peeking is too risky. However, I like the idea of CT armor as a quirk, since it could still keep the massive hitbox, but just be harder to take down. I've virtually always been cored before a match is over, regardless of what's been going on. That's kind of nonsensical, since it's always been a mech designed to storm and scare people. Right now I just feel like I'm playing CoD with slower turning speed.

[Masterzinja]

It seems like damage is bleeding off other sections of the mech into the CT, and the internal health seems to be significantly weaker for some reason as well. Once the CT armor is gone I've gone from a yellow CT to dead with a single c-erml hit or a burst of mg fire.

It really doesn't take even the remotest amount of skill or experience to kill one of these things, but their usefulness is dependent on a great amount of skill, support, and inability to offer any kind of well-rounded contribution to a team. You basically have to put one somewhere away from the main fight and then baby-sit it every time you guys want to move because it will get left behind and die to pretty much anything that it stumbles across.

[Praehotec8]

Yesterday I had the opportunity to participate in some 1-1 zellbrigen duels yesterday, and aside from the humbling realization that my pinpoint aiming is poor compared to some players, I was able to finally pit my Misery against the dire wolf-B in close combat.

The match was closer than I thought. The dire wolf had 6X UAC-5s, and was able to put out a ton of damage in a very short time. My own dire wolf with a more mixed configuration fell to it because I could not out DPS it. My Misery won the match sans its entire right side (arm, ST, leg) and with a red CT. Had I been a better pilot, more able to aim through the smoke and somewhat (IMO) ridiculous cockpit shake with greater accuracy, I would have won by a greater margin.

On one hand I recognize that the dire wolf's sheer DPS output is very high, and 1-1 it is not weak. On the other, a mediocre pilot like me was able to destroy one in close, 1-1 full frontal combat, a situation in which plays fully to the dire wolf's strengths...and it was taken down by a mech 15 tons lighter, with less armor and a much lower DPS.

All of this is because it has a huge CT, must constantly face forward to fire, and cannot twist well. Perhaps when mastered they are a little better, but I still have doubts.

I don't think people are asking for it to be invincible, but a small CT adjustment would help make it worth taking the slow 100-ton mech over a smaller one.

I still like the dire wolf, and (in addition to working on my dueling skills!!) will be working to find loadouts that allow it to shine at prolonged close combat. Until then, my Misery is still king of my mechlab!

[SgtMagor]

that's the whole point about the Dire Wolf, and Atlas, making them so frail that light mechs with machine guns can take out an assault is redunkulous. 100 ton mechs, while not indestructible should be out in the front lines making good use of there size and weapons, and yet since I've been playing this game most of the time you find an assault hiding in the back field taking pot shots since destroying an Atlas right torso is so easy, and now with the Dire Wolfs CT.

[Karl Marlow]

I have never seen a Dire wolf lose a side torso, Leg, or Arm. They loose their CT long before any other component even loses armor. I won't say it never happens. I see armor taking hits in other locations so I know that it is possible to somehow hit those locations. It just gets cored out extremely fast.

Yeah I know it can have 100 points of armor in the front CT. So can an Atlas. An Atlas will lose it's side torsos long before it loses that Center Torso so not only do you have to work through that 100 points of armor you have to work through all the side torso armor and the side torso internal structure before you bring it down. Plus I'm fairly sure that hitting a destroyed side torso transfers reduced damage to the center torso so that is even more armor. You never have to worry about that with a Dire Wolf.

As for it being overpowered. I think I've died to a Dire Wolf once. IT was an 6x UAC5 build and it only killed me because I didn't see it until it took off the Left torso of my Timber Wolf and by then it was too late. Any other time I've faced one of these down it dies. Yeah it might do damage to me. Sometimes it does severe damage to me but I always win. There isn't anything a Dire Wolf can do to save it's CT. That just isn't right for something that is supposed to be so feared in the battletech universe that it was called the great death. I don't look at Dire Wolves and feel fear or even concern. I see them and think free kill.

Edited by ThomasMarik, 24 June 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Sable]

I don't think an oversized CT hitbox is a good "balancing factor" for any mech. Every previous mech that has had a CT that has been too large has been adjusted and those mechs perform much better. Some examples being Kintaro, Stalker, and the Awesome (they did try).

I've taken a full spread of SRMs in my Direwolf and my CT was the only thing that blinked. It doesn't matter if you think the Direwolf would be too strong, it's bad implementation. I don't think oversized hitboxes should be on any mech, and in turn I don't think they should be on the Direwolf either.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

fixed that CT and I think you will see them become dang near unstoppable.

Possibly, but I would still argue that relying on a broken mechanic for balance isn't wise. The CT hit box is clearly borked, which means that it's hiding some other imbalance that needs to be fixed.

It's entirely possible that, once the CT hit box is fixed, the Dire Wolf will need negative quirks in order to balance its awesomeness. I'd be fine with that if it turns out to be the case.

N.b. my W/L ratio in Clan Mechs is pretty close to exactly 1.0. My W/L ratio prior to the Clan pack being released was 1.10. I'm wondering if that 10% difference is due to my Clan Mechs not being mastered yet since most of the efficiencies are in the 5-10% range... if so, I'd say they're pretty damn well balanced overall.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bluetavius, on 23 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Almost, but assault mechs always lead the charge right?

Actually, not true.

People keep thinking of them as Tanks and as such, should "tank" the damage and lead the charge. If one looks closely, Mechs are not used particularly like "modern" armor, but almost entirely like WWII armor.

Except that really is not how it works. (Mostly because against other tanks, tanks really are not terribly "tanky")

A successful armored attack features your MBT as the center piece. Assault Mechs are NOT, in general your MBTs, because MBTs are traditionally mobile, with decent armor and a big gun. In this, your centerpiece should actually be your Heavy Mechs (and mobile Assaults, like Victors, traditionally). More mobile, and because of that mobility, harder to kill, easier to bring firepower where needed.

A good armor advance needs SUPPORT elements to protect it, hence your Mediums, in effect work as your Light Armor, and your Light Mechs as the Infantry/Mounted Infantry protecting your flanks and scouting.

What are your Assault MEchs, then? http://en.wikipedia..../Tank_destroyer

That's right. not tanks, but tank destroyers, which are deployed totally differently from Tanks, because while they usually bigger, and often better armored (at least in front) and have the biggest guns.... they are devoid of mobility in general, and as such, leading the charge, are easily flanked, swarmed and overwhelmed. The best place, usually for an Assault, is coming in BEHIND the Heavies, so that when the opposing units are flushed, then they can bring that massive frontal armor and firepower to bear on the opposing tanks.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 June 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Powder Puff Pew Pew]

From what I remember of Dire Wolf's in previous games is that it walked literely 25-30 mph. It didnt hop up and down and it was the same hight as an Atlas. It was a Massive mech. The scaling of the Dire Wolf in this game is off by like 30-50 ft or so in hight from compairing it to an atlas. The arms on the Dire Wolf bobble up and down on the shoulder join as if it wasnt even attached to the body. The 3rd party view for this beast sucks too, its way too close.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Powder Puff Pew Pew, on 24 June 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

From what I remember of Dire Wolf's in previous games is that it walked literely 25-30 mph. It didnt hop up and down and it was the same hight as an Atlas. It was a Massive mech. The scaling of the Dire Wolf in this game is off by like 30-50 ft or so in hight from compairing it to an atlas. The arms on the Dire Wolf bobble up and down on the shoulder join as if it wasnt even attached to the body. The 3rd party view for this beast sucks too, its way too close.

53.5kph = 33.24mph. Also, mechs are 10-20 meters tall which is around 33 - 66 feet tall.

[SICk Nick]

I agree whole-heartedly w this post. The Dire Wolf needs to be fixed.
I had my ass handed to me by a SDH solely because I couldn't turn fast enough and have no lower arm actuators.
I am too slow to take cover from missiles. At most I can mount a single AMS
I die due to CT damage w the rest of my whole body at 80-90% health almost every. Single. Match.

It's annoying. I get more damage in my Kit Foxes on the regular than my Dire Wolf.
If I break 300dmg in my Dire Wolf I consider that a very good game.

It needs to be fixed. The Atlas is a much, much much better mech ton for ton than a Dire Wolf.
I've hit 1554 Dmg in an atlas. I'm yet to break 400 in a Dire Wolf.