64 replies to this topic

[Preyzer]

more like 3 but tell pgi says some thing about it there well be many more

[Praehotec8]

Cavendish, on 23 June 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

If I place myself in a bad situation, or one is forced upon me by the red team, there is a large chance that I will die.

Look at the Atlas, another 100t mech that is usualy gunned down in seconds, or are you suggesting that the Dire Wolf, in addition to carrying enough firepower to level a small city, should also be able to stand up to 120+ incomming damage?

1.) Unfortunately, right now a bad situation can be forced on the dire wolf in a PUG due to no fault of the pilot's. If your own team runs off and leaves you, there is little you can do to adjust. If you get flanked by an enemy (sometimes it happens no matter how good you are), there is little you can do to react.

All of that would be fine IF the dire wolf could take a beating, but it cannot. It's the perfect storm of huge size, bad hitboxes, slow aiming, and terrible mobility. Good mechs in this game either have the speed and maneuverability to get out of a bad situation, or the durability to survive a bad situation. The dire wolf has neither. You MIGHT kill that one mech in your line of fire before you go down, but that's it. Compare the shadowhawk to the awesome or the orion (pre-CT fix).

2.) Actually I do. The dire wolf has 124 points of CT armor, and each ST has 84 (divided among front and back). The internals are 62 and 42, respectively. Assuming good hitboxes to spread damage and a reasonable player, the direwolf should be able to soak well over 200 damage without going down. As currently stands, the dire wolf will die shortly after taking 160-170 damage (enough to go through CT front and then internals)

The dire wolf is not as bad as the awesome because it DOES carry enough firepower to be a threat in the short time it can sustain fire. However, it is not what most people want when they think of a giant wall of walking armor and weapons.

[Triskelion]

Masterzinja, on 22 June 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

This mech is actually not working correctly, snide comments aside. Not only is the center torso taking way more damage than it should, but it catches on the tiniest little scap of terrain forcing it to ponderously circumnavigate wide areas on certain maps leaving it far behind and exposed.

I've been noticing this as well. The CT hitbox is completely unacceptable, and the terrain problem makes it pretty much impossible to play skirmish without a full 4, since you're always going to be shot first when people ring around. I've stuck on hill climb as a fairly necessary module (and it functions rather well surprisingly).

As an edit: The firepower a dire wolf can carry is immense, as I'm sure everyone has dealt with, but it really doesn't outweigh the fairly common "I've been cored and nothing else is damaged" problem that is pretty consistent. I mean, you might as well just bring along an Atlas with bigger individual weapons in that case, as it ends up performing better anyway, plus it gets the FLD you want for peaking and longer range harassing.

Edited by Triskelion, 23 June 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[Triskelion]

Lynx7725, on 23 June 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

[/size]
I don't own a Dire Wolf, but every time I see one on the field, I try to make sure it gets to its position as intact as possible, escorting it with my Timber Wolf (walking backwards... xD). A Dire Wolf with support is nothing less than a horror show -- for the target. Trying to flank it would run into the support mechs, trying to take it head on would just result in getting chewed up by the Dire Wolf. The Dire Wolf is great in an assault, but it needs to be well supported.

This as well. Running full 4's is exceptionally helpful, since it's basically just a weapons platform. Honestly though, it's not great at peaking, it's not great at facing things down, and it's really only good if it's not being shot at (which only happens when there's something else closer or more damaged).

[Sepulchritude]

I see no issue what-so-ever.

The CT vulnerability is the price one pays for the right to equip 50.5 tons of weaponry and 100-tonner armor. It's a balancing factor for being the most heavily armed mech in existance, that can melt any mech it looks at within 5 seconds. It's a weapons platform, not a traditional front liner assault like a highlander would be.

[Praehotec8]

Sepulchritude, on 23 June 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

I see no issue what-so-ever.

The CT vulnerability is the price one pays for the right to equip 50.5 tons of weaponry and 100-tonner armor. It's a balancing factor for being the most heavily armed mech in existance, that can melt any mech it looks at within 5 seconds. It's a weapons platform, not a traditional front liner assault like a highlander would be.

Do you pilot one? It looks great on paper, and against a stationary target, it works great. Against anything with any mobility piloted by a reasonably skilled opponent - forget it. A summoner was circling me last night faster than I could turn, and they go less than 90 kph.

The dire wolf is great anytime it can focus down a target engaging something else or otherwise not moving. It's not exactly the poster child for zellbrigen.

The stalker is a weapons platform too, and it is at least twice as durable and just as dangerous as the dire wolf - aside from ballistics it can boat the same number of weapons (as practically is efficient) as the dire wolf. That aside, WHY is the largest mech in the game NOT a traditional front-line assault mech?

[Lynx7725]

Praehotec8, on 23 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Do you pilot one? It looks great on paper, and against a stationary target, it works great. Against anything with any mobility piloted by a reasonably skilled opponent - forget it. A summoner was circling me last night faster than I could turn, and they go less than 90 kph.

Pretty much this. My Timber Wolf S, jump capable and all, look at Dire Wolves as dangerous prey. If I get shot up on the approach, I'm going to hurt; but once I get into brawl range, the Dire Wolf is in dire straits -- it simply cannot turn or twist fast enough to keep up even with a ground-bound mech.

That's why never leave your team Dire Wolves unsupported. Always give them an escort. They'd blow holes in defensive lines... as long as they survive the trot to the firing point.

[Wingbreaker]

Praehotec8, on 23 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

A summoner was circling me last night faster than I could turn, and they go less than 90 kph.

Counter turn, reverse, and bring your ridiculous firepower to bare. A summoner should be the absolute least of your worries.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 23 June 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Alexandrix]

I was curious just how bad the maneuverability was on the DW,wondering rather I was just over reacting to how bad it felt.So i got into a situation the other night that let me test something out.A stalker came up to brawl with me.Instead of doing the back up,turn,etc. I just stood in place and turned and torso twisted to the right while he circled me.the stalker was able to out walk my turning speed(and worthless torso twist) and circle around me faster than i could turn at a stand still.a STALKER.Yea.it's that bad.

My DW's are all fully mastered by the way.

My atlas feels like a ballerina in comparison.

On topic,yes the CT hitbox is way to large.It soaks everything from every angle unless the shot is from a shallow angle to your side and slightly behind you.It needs to get the stalker treatment for hitboxes.

Yes,the dire wolf can carry a lot of fire power.It can be a great mech in certain circumstances.But,I think PGI was in fear of the DW turning into an OP monstermech,and they swung the nerf bat just a little to hard at it's mobility and hitboxes.

Edited by Alexandrix, 23 June 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Wingbreaker, on 23 June 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Counter turn, reverse, and bring your ridiculous firepower to bare. A summoner should be the absolute least of your worries.

I didn't say I lost...I killed it just fine, but you're missing the point. A moderate speed heavy mech can circle-jerk the dire wolf unless you reverse direction and meet it half-way. A skilled opponent will quickly change tactics so you can't do that, and a light should have no problem staying behind you. All of which would be fine except that when you add in the ridiculously large CT and the inability to escape any bad situation, it's just too much to be truly "fair".

Not to mention that practically speaking the stalker can carry just as much sustainable firepower and is much more durable.

[Triskelion]

Praehotec8, on 23 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Do you pilot one? It looks great on paper, and against a stationary target, it works great. Against anything with any mobility piloted by a reasonably skilled opponent - forget it. A summoner was circling me last night faster than I could turn, and they go less than 90 kph.

The dire wolf is great anytime it can focus down a target engaging something else or otherwise not moving. It's not exactly the poster child for zellbrigen.

The stalker is a weapons platform too, and it is at least twice as durable and just as dangerous as the dire wolf - aside from ballistics it can boat the same number of weapons (as practically is efficient) as the dire wolf. That aside, WHY is the largest mech in the game NOT a traditional front-line assault mech?

That's sort of the issue. People are mistaking the ability to be a weapons platform with their usefulness in the first place. If you can't soak damage in an assault, you might as well play a jager or a catapult, since you'll be able to keep fairly strong burst and not have the insane drawbacks the dire wolf does.

[Cavendish]

Praehotec8, on 23 June 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

1.) Unfortunately, right now a bad situation can be forced on the dire wolf in a PUG due to no fault of the pilot's. If your own team runs off and leaves you, there is little you can do to adjust. If you get flanked by an enemy (sometimes it happens no matter how good you are), there is little you can do to react.

All of that would be fine IF the dire wolf could take a beating, but it cannot. It's the perfect storm of huge size, bad hitboxes, slow aiming, and terrible mobility. Good mechs in this game either have the speed and maneuverability to get out of a bad situation, or the durability to survive a bad situation. The dire wolf has neither. You MIGHT kill that one mech in your line of fire before you go down, but that's it. Compare the shadowhawk to the awesome or the orion (pre-CT fix).

2.) Actually I do. The dire wolf has 124 points of CT armor, and each ST has 84 (divided among front and back). The internals are 62 and 42, respectively. Assuming good hitboxes to spread damage and a reasonable player, the direwolf should be able to soak well over 200 damage without going down. As currently stands, the dire wolf will die shortly after taking 160-170 damage (enough to go through CT front and then internals)

The dire wolf is not as bad as the awesome because it DOES carry enough firepower to be a threat in the short time it can sustain fire. However, it is not what most people want when they think of a giant wall of walking armor and weapons.

So, it can easily put out huge alphas (or as close to alphas as you get with this design of clan weapons), pays for that by being as agile as a pregnant cow on ice and "only" being able to take 160ish damage to its huge CT. I dont find this unreasonable tbh, im soon done mastering the prime version and have yet to find it broken.

It gets slaughtered if caught abandoned by its team? You mean just like any assult without jumpjets? Yeah I will admit that when I fight alone in my Atlas i have a chance to survive while in the DW its more like "ggclose", but then again, the atlas do not carry anywhere near the amount of weapons the DW do. There HAS to be a huge downside for all that firepower unless we want (even more) whining about P2W/OP Clans then we already got from people who has never even tried to pilot them. Just read the forums and you will see how good and elite people feel by posting that "h1 guyz! i kill3d dashi lololol!".

Currently a force of supported Dire Wolfs flanking an enemy is an amazing thing to behold, solo DW stumbling around alone, not so much. An assult mech is not supposed to be the end-all weapon of solo choise, it should need support and skillful handling to be effective.

How do you suggest this mech is balanced against the atlas if you "fix" the hitboxes, makes it able to roll damage due to swifter twisting and yet allow it to carry its diffrent lore loadouts?

(regarding the 120 pts damage you are ofc correct, I was reading the example given (2xLRM 60s 2 shotting) and wrote 120 instead of 240)

[Arrogusss]

I piloted the Direwolf chassis all weekend.
If you know how to play a Jager and survive, and also can control a Stalker to some degree... the Direwolf is a little like both combined.
I agree that the pure LRM center torso damage is unacceptable, but I have fared very well due to my experience in a fragile XL Jager.
Don't have a photobucket/whatever account so I don't feel like going through all that to post screenshots; but I owned many a Timberwolf..many Atlas etc.. even caught by myself facing multiples at once.
6 of every 10 games highest matchscore of 24 people.. even a game with 1300+ dmg and a 161 matchscore. If they improve the hitboxes I will become more than a Monster in the DWF, for me it would become godlike.
It took a good 25 games to get the hang of it.
All in all it depends on your playstyle and how to work around the weaknesses. Biggest weakness is the HitBOX.

[Lynx7725]

Cavendish, on 23 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Currently a force of supported Dire Wolfs flanking an enemy is an amazing thing to behold, solo DW stumbling around alone, not so much. An assult mech is not supposed to be the end-all weapon of solo choise, it should need support and skillful handling to be effective.

In a recent Alpine game, we started on the low side and our Alpha lance decided not to play the H10 hill game, and went for H11 hill. They met 3 Daishis. They died (but gave a good accounting of themselves). Said three Daishis later came trotting down the slope, and they were an impressive sight... but by then our team has already mauled half their team and the others were not supporting the Daishis.

Our lights and mediums slashed in from the left and took one Daishi out, I worked on the rightmost, and when the center Daishi was within 300m, I charged in with my Timber Wolf. He got one shot, didn't kill me, and then I splat him to death. None of the three Daishis survived their downward walk which should have been a shooting gallery for them. Without support in ECM, AMS, flank protection, and scouts to flush things out to let them use their awesome firepower, Daishis are very limited. Very team-based design, really.

[Kushko]

I think the mobility on the DW is fine, but the roof on top of the mech that appears to be all center torso making pretty much every lrm that hits you hit your center torso is unacceptable. I dont mind energy and ballistic weapons having an easy time hitting my center torso since its a fair tradeoff for the immense firepower i can bring in to the game, but lrms are supposed to be a spread damage weapon not focus fire on one component and with the current lrm spam meta this problem is just that much worse.

So please fix the "roof" so it actually acts as a proper distribution of center torso/side torso/arms instead of just one huge center torso area for every lrm fired at you to hit.

*edit* And in general i believe that non tag/narc/artemis lrms should be made far less accurate. So that players that want to specialize in being a LRM platform wont only take as many big LRM launchers as they can fit but also want to take all the support equipment for them as well.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[At least I can shoot]

1) Try and get an ECM mech to stick with you.
2) Find a good spot with lots of cover
3) Don't run around like a moron.

I don't personally own a Dire Wolf, but I know what it is like to pilot a slow mech, you are a target for LRMs (I know I play a LRM boat a lot) Once you are NARCed or Tagged you are public enemy #1. And DW are easy to take down with a few salvos but that is just one of the weaknesses of being sooo goddamn slow.

[Kushko]

At least I can shoot, on 23 June 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

1) Try and get an ECM mech to stick with you.
2) Find a good spot with lots of cover
3) Don't run around like a moron.

I don't personally own a Dire Wolf, but I know what it is like to pilot a slow mech, you are a target for LRMs (I know I play a LRM boat a lot) Once you are NARCed or Tagged you are public enemy #1. And DW are easy to take down with a few salvos but that is just one of the weaknesses of being sooo goddamn slow.

You are not really hearing/reading what people are saying. Its not that a DireWolf is slow and big or that we dont know how to use cover or try to keep up with a friendly ECM mech, its that its upper hitbox (the "roof")is broken/bugged/stupid and it makes pretty much every LRM fired at you hit your center torso while on other machs (not sure if warhawk has the same problem) at least some of the missiles will spread to the side torso and arms.

This is not a tradeoff for the firepower that a direwolf can bring in to a match, simple fact is that lrms are not meant to focus fire only one section with every missile (even with tag and artemis, not that that is really required since even basic lrm with no support equipment will hit CT of a direwolf with the vast majority of the fire missiles).

[Zolaz]

PGI just forgot to put the ECM on the Direwolf.

[VIPER2207]

Twistar, on 22 June 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

Please do not comment about this mech unless you have master one.

lucky me, i have my Dire Wolfs mastered, so i'm allowed to answer
But really... yes, it is a walking CT, and yes, it's damn slow, and yes, it moves like a damn Airbus A380... but because of the fact that you can oneshot anything up to a 55-ton-medium, i think the mech is pretty much balanced, with a really good pilot it might even be a little bit too powerful. Positioning and tactical awareness are the keys to succeed in a Dire Wolf. You get swarmed by lights? Fine, your fault, you die. Trying to do a close-range-dance with anything, even an atlas? Your fault, you die. You go out in the open and die a quick and brutal death by LRMs? Again your fault, and again you die.

I don't say that very often, but really.... Learn to play that mech, then you will see what a hell of a battlestation it is. I had several games over 1000 damage and 5-6 kills with them, once i found out how to use them.

[Triskelion]

VIPER2207, on 23 June 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

lucky me, i have my Dire Wolfs mastered, so i'm allowed to answer
But really... yes, it is a walking CT, and yes, it's damn slow, and yes, it moves like a damn Airbus A380... but because of the fact that you can oneshot anything up to a 55-ton-medium, i think the mech is pretty much balanced, with a really good pilot it might even be a little bit too powerful. Positioning and tactical awareness are the keys to succeed in a Dire Wolf. You get swarmed by lights? Fine, your fault, you die. Trying to do a close-range-dance with anything, even an atlas? Your fault, you die. You go out in the open and die a quick and brutal death by LRMs? Again your fault, and again you die.

I don't say that very often, but really.... Learn to play that mech, then you will see what a hell of a battlestation it is. I had several games over 1000 damage and 5-6 kills with them, once i found out how to use them.

And so do I, but the point isn't that it's in terrible shape, it's that it's really only useful when people aren't targeting you first, which makes "positioning and tactical awareness" second to "allow them to walk around the corner first because the weapon placement is awful and you can't crest/peek/brawl in the first place, since you're going to get cored".

The other thing I keep reading that I find hilarious is "A dire wolf can mount more weapons than an atlas so it's fine that the atlas is better at X", except that filling a dire wolf completely is idiotic, and that an atlas can take more than enough firepower that is front-loaded to make it exceptionally more useful for peeking, and with the non-issue of the core, much better for getting into shorter range fights.

Yeah, I've got tons of games over 1000-1100 damage, that's great and all, but it doesn't mean crap about the mech. It's still extremely likely that you end a game with nothing but your core destroyed, and if people actually let you get to 1000 damage, it's as much your doing as it is the enemy team herp derping and letting you shoot them without dealing with you first.


Plus, for comparison:




The core, even on the model, is nonsensically huge. Just look at the roof, which is almost all CT.

Edited by Triskelion, 24 June 2014 - 01:17 AM.