22 replies to this topic

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Well, the title sums it up. I loathe Ravens. I actively swear at them, and describe their presence on my team as a bad omen, unless on a brilliant run. Why? Well, there's quite a few underlying issues there that prompted my hatred, going back as far as MW3. And, of course, I struggle to take them seriously since I read on Sarna that the Ravens they tested MASC on caught fire on activation of the gear. But, recently, I've softened towards the bird. I still will never be caught dead piloting one. Hell no, I'm not going to make the guys who got me into Battletech look down on me with disdain (as they did in Closed Beta when I was forced to use one as a Trial mech for a while), but I'm only going to insult them if I'm having a long loss streak, or they grab kills from under my nose repeatedly, especially if I've taken serious damage and they've had hardly anything done to them.

However, since the arrival of the Clan mechs, one of the specific Raven builds seems to be pointless, or at least flawed. The twin ER Large builds have always annoyed me. The close-range combat potential of the build is limited, since the cooldown on the lasers is too long for effective anti-light combat. Furthermore, they have to have line of sight to shoot, so they can't sit with the LRM boats. In fact, some of the RVN-3Ls I've seen with this loadout sit between the boats and the brawlers - their ECM protects themselves, and nobody else. This very concept annoys me. So, I'll sum down the reason why the Raven has earned my ire most in MWO:

The pilots.

Look, I believe that the Raven is a jack-of-all-trades mech. It's perfectly capable of filling any role that a Light mech could theoretically take. Unfortunately, with the arrival of the Clan mechs, there's only a few that it actually could be called a "master" at.

A summary from a rather long-winded, anger-filled rant I came up with after a Raven grabbed three kills from my one-legged Nova:

1. Streak Carrier is better suited to Commando, Raven just isn't nimble enough. In fact, while it's fast, it's larger hitboxes don't really lend it well to trading blows with other lights without a skilled pilot.

2. One pilot insisted that the Raven "Wolf Packs" well. I refer to said strategy as a Swarm, and again, the Raven's size lets it down. The best Swarms I've seen have been using Locusts, Firestarters and Jenners, often with Cicadas or Spiders supporting. I know that Raven does swarm well, but it just doesn't do it AS WELL as these other lights.

3. Light hunter is a Commando or Jenner's main role.

4. LRM Boat only applies to Huggin, and the Adder does it just as well.

5. Again, Commando, Jenner and Firestarter make better headhunter/assassin mechs, either through better firepower, smaller profiles, or greater speed.

6. Sniper is more suited to mechs with more maneuverability, like the PPC Spiders, or with more space, such as the Clan lights.

Yes, I'll admit it. This is biased to the extreme, but notice I left two roles free - Knifefighter and ECM Support. A Raven has no place keeping it's shroud for itself as it snipes and picks up a large damage total - I've seen plenty of teams fall apart because it's only ECM mechs were either too slow to get into position, or were sitting off to the side 'sniping' and coming out with decent damage totals, despite the fact that it's team was having LRM troubles. The former is Atlas, the latter is Raven. Former is a mech constraint, and is forgiven. Latter is pilot behavior, and that's an issue. However, a Raven with NARC or TAG, and the rest of it's hardpoints filled with knifefighting weapons like Small and Medium Lasers, and whenever I see one of those, I make no comment about a "bad Raven build", because it really ISN'T. That is the reason why Ravens were made in the first place, and it's the role they are best suited for.

Yes, the 2X, 4X and H aren't really suited to that, and I get that. They've got their own roles, but really, aside for the H, the other two are mostly played for EXP to get the 3L mastered, judging by the comments of Raven pilots I've spoken to about the reasons for choosing those mechs. I'll concede that the 2X and 4X really are more suited to sniping than knifefighting, but I still argue that other lights do it better. The H... well, I mostly see them either running up to finish off damaged mechs, so they're being scavengers. It annoys me when I'm killless, since half the time I'm not even dead yet and they're killing my targets. When I'm not, I simply let them do their work. Only time I take issue is if I'm in my Death's Knell, it fills the same sort of role without an ammunition dependency, so it annoys me if they pick up those targets, but eh, nothing I can do.

Since the Clan mechs arrived, though, my hope in the population of Raven pilots has returned - people are leaving the Large Lasers alone, and have brought support weapons into games. I do not boat LRMs, I prefer balanced loadouts with a mixture of weapons systems where possible. When I DO have LRMs, I'm thankful to the pilot, because let's face it, it's gutsy to play support, especially if they bring NARC, which has the range of an SRM, prompting the Raven to get close. When I brawl, I'm thankful for the rain of LRMs that they spot, until they spot my target for said rain when I'm about to finish it.

So in summery, please, keep bringing out the support Raven setups, and keep making the Ravenslayer re-evaluate your mech, the only one he refuses to ever buy. Or you never know, your ER Large Raven might run into my Streakmando and have a bad day ;P

I'm going to get so many haters for this post, but I've been meaning to say it for days

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

2x ERLL/ECM Ravens lose to 3x cERLL/ECM Ullers, I'd imagine. If you want to play light ECM sniper, the Uller is the obvious choice. IIRC it can even take JJs.

[AkilaX]

Haters be hating. But seriously I agree with OP.
Unfortunately, when solo dropping with a support 3L, you risk coming out with nothing to show for, win or lose. When I first got my 3L, I was happier than a pig in mud. I love support roles. However, too many times I dropped into teams that either refused/didn't know how to use their LRMs or had 0 LRMs equipped out of 12 mechs...FML. OR worse yet, the entire team is too afraid to advance even while under ECM cover. Leaving me to have to try and find targets to Tag/NARC without any covering fire, thus ending in my early death in the match.
The only consistent build for the 3L is the ERLL, I remain close enough to the team to ECM blanket them, while pumping out enough damage to get myself some decent xp. I even dropped some armor to put a tag and help LRMs a bit.
Now, on the subject of kill stealing...well, this is not free for all. One less enemy is one step closer to victory. Just be glad you survived.

[Evil Ed]

ERLL-RVN? The mech that makes people wonder why direwolfs arrive (too) late at the frontline with cored CT but full front armour?

[Kali Rinpoche]

I felt the very same about the 2 ERLL Raven's since they started popping up in increased frequency about 3 months ago. I can't tell you how many matches ended with my side down to its last mech,the 2 ERLL RVN-3GL, who'd been sniping all match from max range. Occasionally, if only 2-3 mechs remained, they might pull out a win, but mostly they just extended the amount of time I wasn't able to launch again in my dead mech. Then one night, I spectated a tremendously good RVN 3L pilot running around popping volleys of LL fire while never slowing down. I thought, even though I had grown to despise the 2ERLL raven, I thought it was time to finish them and be done with all light chassis.

So I bought the 3GL, 2x, and 4x and promptly kitted them all out in ERLLs and went out leveling them. What I found was that if I was caught by FS or Spiders, especially with mgs, I got tore up with out doing any significant damage. Hence, again I hated the 2ERLL Raven, especially when it was me playing it. Basically my refusal to waste ECM made the build untenable. I then tried to play every combo of support, ML, SRM, etc combo on the 3GL before finding a build that works for me.

The builds I play:
3GL - ER PPC, LPulse, 210 engine. I play it as ECM cover for the first part of the match, especially for my lance/assaults. I snipe with ER PPC and LPulse on torsos of exposed mechs. Mainly to drive them back to cover and soft up targets already being hit by teammates. Later it's PPC/LP run and gun. This combo lets me take off legs of other lights and chew back armor in brawl melees. On maps like River City and Forest colony it is really effective. The hit-and-run 2 ppc variant is also effective. Finally positive kills in it.

RVN-2X - ER PPC, 2 ML, srm2 and 260XL. Played as a hit and run mech, with some PPC sniping at early stages. Can run and fight with mediums and lights. Fast enough to get repeated alpha strikes in and get away. Has enough burst dps again other lights and the 2ML/SRM 2 can be used to knife fight with again at speed. Has better handling than the 3GL.

RVN-4X - MPL/ML, SRM6 2 tons, 2 MGs, and max engine.What I thought was the worst variant at the start has become my unexpected favorite with an 11-1 K/D ratio as a knife fighter. Run at full speed, hit with SRM's and MLs, and finish off internals with the mgs. Very fun to play. Has proven survivability against clan mechs b/c of its speed and good handling.

In conclusion: the 2ERLL variant can be deadly in a speed 3GL build with the right pilot, but more often than naught, the ECM blanket is more important than the 2 points of damage you are doing at 1100+ range.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Evil Ed, on 23 June 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

ERLL-RVN? The mech that makes people wonder why direwolfs arrive (too) late at the frontline with cored CT but full front armour?

As a Dire Wolf pilot, that could be any light mech. ERLL Ravens are hardly the worst offender, probably because if I see them, I'm typically accurate enough to remove a leg and then report the attack to my teammates if I'm feeling generous, or core it myself, which is more often the case. I've had more issues with the knifefighter builds because they don't hang back to where I've got greater firepower, as the standard sniper variation does, but gets into my non-existent torso twist range and tears my back apart before I can really compensate.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 23 June 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

2x ERLL/ECM Ravens lose to 3x cERLL/ECM Ullers, I'd imagine. If you want to play light ECM sniper, the Uller is the obvious choice. IIRC it can even take JJs.

My point exactly. If you want to be "that guy" and waste an ECM mech as a sniper, at least make it one with the range to make the most of said loadout. The 2xER LL Raven is better suited to abuse it's greater speed, so having shorter range but more versatility is probably the best idea for the mech.

Kali Rinpoche, on 23 June 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I felt the very same about the 2 ERLL Raven's since they started popping up in increased frequency about 3 months ago. I can't tell you how many matches ended with my side down to its last mech,the 2 ERLL RVN-3GL, who'd been sniping all match from max range. Occasionally, if only 2-3 mechs remained, they might pull out a win, but mostly they just extended the amount of time I wasn't able to launch again in my dead mech. Then one night, I spectated a tremendously good RVN 3L pilot running around popping volleys of LL fire while never slowing down. I thought, even though I had grown to despise the 2ERLL raven, I thought it was time to finish them and be done with all light chassis.

So I bought the 3GL, 2x, and 4x and promptly kitted them all out in ERLLs and went out leveling them. What I found was that if I was caught by FS or Spiders, especially with mgs, I got tore up with out doing any significant damage. Hence, again I hated the 2ERLL Raven, especially when it was me playing it. Basically my refusal to waste ECM made the build untenable. I then tried to play every combo of support, ML, SRM, etc combo on the 3GL before finding a build that works for me.

[Build info snipped for space]

In conclusion: the 2ERLL variant can be deadly in a speed 3GL build with the right pilot, but more often than naught, the ECM blanket is more important than the 2 points of damage you are doing at 1100+ range.

A RAVEN THAT AGREES WITH ME? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS??

Really, I'm in the same sort of mindset as you. Only my COM-2D ever ran a standard build of streaks and a medium laser, the rest I experimented with until I was comfortable. Still run that Commando, and you know what I target first? The ER LL Ravens. Just like the Spiders and Firestarters, Commandos are an effective threat to the ERLL Ravens who stand off on their own and shroud nobody but themselves, because all that means is that with the Commando's counter-ECM active, the Raven has to either run towards the front lines with a psychotic baby Atlas pelting it with missiles and the enemy team targeting it, or it has to call for help, dragging a mech out of the front lines to frighten the Commando off. Not that it stops me very often.

You also seem to have come to the same conclusion that I have towards the Raven, that it does better with a mixture of weapon systems and ranges, with short ranges being it's optimal zone because, let's face it, 80% of pilots still don't drop their ECM shroud to counter.

AkilaX, on 23 June 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Haters be hating. But seriously I agree with OP.
Unfortunately, when solo dropping with a support 3L, you risk coming out with nothing to show for, win or lose. When I first got my 3L, I was happier than a pig in mud. I love support roles. However, too many times I dropped into teams that either refused/didn't know how to use their LRMs or had 0 LRMs equipped out of 12 mechs...FML. OR worse yet, the entire team is too afraid to advance even while under ECM cover. Leaving me to have to try and find targets to Tag/NARC without any covering fire, thus ending in my early death in the match.
The only consistent build for the 3L is the ERLL, I remain close enough to the team to ECM blanket them, while pumping out enough damage to get myself some decent xp. I even dropped some armor to put a tag and help LRMs a bit.
Now, on the subject of kill stealing...well, this is not free for all. One less enemy is one step closer to victory. Just be glad you survived.

See, that isn't the ERLL build talking. THAT'S YOUR BEHAVIOR. Plus, you still have support gear, making you a close-support mech, not a true sniper. Do you really think that I would loathe the ER LL Ravens so much if the pilots behaved as you do? No. I'm talking about the guy who sat on Forest Colony on top of a ridge where he was reasonably camoflaged, shooting regularly, but more over, not actually sitting close enough to anyone to actually shroud them. He was the only ECM mech we had, and because he was a "sniper", we got torn to shreds before he felt the need to move. Which was to walk head-first into the enemy team that had facerolled us, and wonder why we were all dead.

Also, I've seen more Support Ravens since the Clan mechs came out than ever before. Probably because 70% of Clan players have LRMs on their mechs. Not as boats, mind, but as long-range weapons to support their builds. Or, y'know, because they've spent so much modifying their other builds they can't afford other missile weapons. Still, claiming that the ERLL is the only consistent build is bullcrap. Knifefighter builds do just as well, as do close-support fighters with Large Pulses, or with the PPC/LPL combo Kali mentioned. Support in any game is a risky play.

I mean, to use Team Fortress 2 as an example, being the class-based game I have the most experience playing. The Spy is not a sniper, although he could be used like one with long-range shots. However, he's squishy, and he's easily taken out by a sniper doing the same role, because that's what the sniper is for. But, a Spy playing the way he was supposed to, sapping defenses and backstabbing the enemy while using his cloak and disguises regularly, is far harder to deal with. Same goes for Ravens. If you want to use the ERLL builds, you're leaving yourself exposed to threats closer in, unless you plan to outrun them or simply stick with your team and try to roll over the threat.

Another point: Do you think that there are other mechs that have the same issueof having inconsistent support setups? While it's not ECM-capable, I've seen Support Jenners. I've seen a single Support COM-2D (He had Narc mixed in with his SRMs). Spotter Spiders are a thing. Player behaviour, people. It works wonders.

Also, a personal anecdote. Back in Closed Beta, I was forced to use Raven for a couple of weeks as it was a Trial mech, and I wasn't playing often enough to build up a decent cash amount for Jenners while keeping up with my Catapult (thank you, repair and rearm). Anyway, I was sitting back in the stock-2X, when a Boompult told me to scout or he would leg me. He ended up legging me anyway after I turned back and ran from an Atlas and Hunchback combo. Did that make me hate the Catapult pilot? Not at all, I was already unhappy to be using the mech. But, seeing Ravens in-game now that are leaving the scouting to medium and heavy mechs while they sit back and snipe makes me wish that I could do the same thing that Catapult did, and threaten to leg the ERLL mechs if they don't pull their weight and share the shroud, or scout.

As for the last point - every kill a Raven steals from my damaged mech is a kill I want to be paid for, since three quarters of the time I've done the damage myself and I was just waiting for cooldown before finishing it. Said payment used to come in the form of removing the Raven's leg, but now it comes in an expletive-filled rant towards the Raven pilot's lack of honor, since no Raven pilot has that while using that mech. It's a support mech being played in a role it really isn't designed for. Plus, since he grabbed the kill, he also just stole the greater portion of the EXP from that kill. Even if we win, and we don't always do that, (Remember, I view Ravens as being cursed and a bad omen. Self-gratifying prophecy is an issue there), I get a reduced payout because someone decided that he was more important than the mech fighting for itself, promptly fed on it's target and took a rather large dump on the emotional state of the damaged mech pilot.

Edited by Tarriss Halcyon, 23 June 2014 - 04:29 PM.

[Galenit]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 23 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

As for the last point - every kill a Raven steals from my damaged mech is a kill I want to be paid for, since three quarters of the time I've done the damage myself and I was just waiting for cooldown before finishing it. Said payment used to come in the form of removing the Raven's leg, but now it comes in an expletive-filled rant towards the Raven pilot's lack of honor, since no Raven pilot has that while using that mech.

1. People talking about killstealing are in the wrong game or should play privat matches only.

2. Honor? Play the Clans! If i play my narc raven, you can be sure that i take out every red internal i see. If that is a problem for you, read under 1. .

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Galenit, on 24 June 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

1. People talking about killstealing are in the wrong game or should play privat matches only.

2. Honor? Play the Clans! If i play my narc raven, you can be sure that i take out every red internal i see. If that is a problem for you, read under 1. .

I do play the clans, and play them well...when IS light mechs don't help themselves to the mechs I've critically damaged. As for berating me about my killsteal comments, it's more my way of measuring progress. Each and every mech I own has it's build recorded in a Word document, and then every single kill I score goes onto the lists to measure both progress and, in some cases, the metagame at specific moments - I can use these logs to tell roughly when certain mechs were in Elite, for example, and, until I have killed X amount in Master, see how many of said mech it killed, which reflects the metagame. For example, one of my mastered Dragons killed six Awesome in basic tier, and has only killed one since it was Mastered. Since none of the other markers on the document are red or gold, the color of Elite and Master tier, and only the one is blue, which tells me the mech is fully mastered, I can conclude that the metagame has shifted away from the Awesome, which we all know it has. It also lets me know what mechs my builds are more capable of hunting down.

Dealing masses of damage, especially in a legged or critically damaged mech, is no help to these logs if I don't kill. Having Ravens or Locusts walk up, kill my target and walk off is, in my view, arrogant. You might see it as padding out your own payment, I see it as you forcing me to run the mech in exactly the same condition again, as I do so until it scores a kill. Is this the wrong game for me? Hell no. Is this the wrong game for me to still be tempted to call KS against Ravens (and only Ravens barring the occasional Locust)? Nope. Is this the game where people think that ER Large Ravens are effective against anything faster than a Dragon? Yup, and that is what annoys me.

[Harathan]

Stopped reading when OP kept saying things like

Tarriss Halcyon, on 23 June 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

...grabbed kills from under my nose...

and

Tarriss Halcyon, on 23 June 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

...they're killing my targets...

which is a shame because I suspect the actual point trying to be made was valid. Maybe team games aren't for you.

Edited by Harathan, 24 June 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[JonahGrimm]

So, I pilot a murderbird, and I do apologize about my murderbird 'brethern' that seem to think LLasers are somehow appropriate murderbird weapons.

Harrumph, I say.

The raven shines precisely because of its relatively heavy mixed loadout possibilities. Those ERLL ravens are a blight, and I enjoy tearing their legs off every chance I get. It is the epitome of the idea of damage being king, without any conception of teamwork and utility - the most selfish build I see on the battlefield.

This: RVN-3L is mine. It moves fast, hits incredibly hard, gets in your face and melts armor. This one dances along with the assaults and makes people pay for entering my ECM bubble.

At the start of the match, I'll scout ahead, looking for the stragglers, the edges of the line. Once we've made contact? I pull back to our firing line, popping out to smash anyone who moves out of place in the enemy's gunline. My bubble goes where the LRMs are aimed, swooping through to disrupt locks and protect our heavy armor.

That's what Ravens should be doing - calling down the rain with NARCs, supporting the gunline, and shredding stragglers. This stand-off-and-shoot ... blasphemy is a waste.

Harrumph, I say. Harrumph.

[Revis Volek]

I also lost interest at that point....no such thing as "KILL STEALING" in a team game. Do you think that the Quarterbacks should get the credit if they threw a 10 yard pass and someone ran it the rest of the way in? Even if it was 3 yards?

So basically this is about you....and your LOGS? Because thats all I really see you upset about...the RVN-3L does wonders as a Sniper/Harasser. If you think its meant for Knife-fighting then you must have never piloted an Ember or FS9-H. I have a necklace around my Embers neck with the empty cockpits of RVN's. The 4X excels in close range where the 3L lacks because of Jump Jets and the diversity of the loadouts. ECM is useless if people can get LoS on you.....and anytime ECM runs off by himself unless specifically told to do so he isnt doing his job.

[Chimerahawk]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 23 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

As a Dire Wolf pilot, that could be any light mech. ERLL Ravens are hardly the worst offender, probably because if I see them, I'm typically accurate enough to remove a leg and then report the attack to my teammates if I'm feeling generous, or core it myself, which is more often the case. I've had more issues with the knifefighter builds because they don't hang back to where I've got greater firepower, as the standard sniper variation does, but gets into my non-existent torso twist range and tears my back apart before I can really compensate.

I've got to agree with this - as a long range dire wolf pilot, ravens and cicadas are of no concern to me. Spiders are probably far more annoying if they know how to play sniper well enough. Mainly because they typically have far more speed and escape capability.

This brings us to another problem with the ERLL raven. Most ERLL raven pilots crest a hill, and stop to fire their lasers. Everyone knows after their first 5 matches in a trial jenner, that you never stop in a light mech. While I've gotten skilled enough with guass rifles to guass most lights that run under 130 kph, the majority of my light mechs kills in my direwolf are either ERLL ravens or cicadas that pop over a hill, stop, zoom, fire, and then immediately repeat in the same exact spot. It's just not playing with your brain.

Also - To all the discussion of kill stealing. Yes, this may be a team game, however it is rarely played as so. You pick a target, and you engage them. Unless you're in a premade, don't expect anyone to help. If you press R you'll probably get LRMs on them, but those take a while for flight time, and do you even have LRM boats on your team? Point being, kill stealing is dirty if you didn't assist in the actual killing of the 'mech and helped your allies. Now if you're focus firing, I wouldn't consider that kill stealing. If you're running around looking for nothing but cored enemies, I'd call that kill stealing.

[Harathan]

For the sake of clarity, my 3L build: RVN-3L

Dedicated to Recon, Spotting and Electronic Warfare. No, I don't get many kills. Yes, I get a crapload of assists and bonuses.

[TercieI]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 23 June 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

2x ERLL/ECM Ravens lose to 3x cERLL/ECM Ullers, I'd imagine. If you want to play light ECM sniper, the Uller is the obvious choice. IIRC it can even take JJs.

I'm not sure. The Raven is cooler and has much better gun mounts. Also, LL (especially those with extra-long burn time) aren't famous for working well with jump jets.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

The reason why I hate Raven isn't because it interferes with my logs, that's just my reason for loathing people running up and coring the mechs I've damaged. Nor is it the key issue in this forum post. Yes, you get more c-bills for assists. Unfortunately, the reverse is true for exp, where kills grant more. My clan mechs are not mastered. The Ravens likely are. But that is beside the point. If you're going to keep bringing up those points, then that's just annoying, and it shows that you can't ignore my measure of a mech's success, the destruction of the enemy, the same way I ignore yours, the magic number of damage over everything. For example, an 800 damage game for me is all well and good, but a four to six kill match is amazing. Normally, in the process of scoring 800 damage, I will amass said amount of kills. But acting like my measure of a build's success is inferior to yours is a supremacist's POV, and it's not one I agree with.

Yes, DarthRevis, you are correct. I have not used Firestarter - I focus on one mech line per weight chassis for exp, or I did before the clan mechs arrived and I had enough mechs to run my RNG properly. However, I introduced a player to the game by showing him the Ember trailer, bought him one, and helped him build it. My own close combat mechs, specifically my Jenners, also kill many Ravens - as does my Flame, which is loaded out uniquely as a non-XL laser carrier. But, I don't agree with the logic of Ravens being suited purely to sniping because they get focused when in combat. It was stated in at least one TT sourcebook that Ravens were not designed to get into combat at all. They were stealth mechs, so if a Raven ended up in a firefight, it was viewed as a mission failure. Yes, Ravens can carry large lasers if they so wish, but the pilot behavior is the problem. As you stated - if he runs off alone without explaining that to the team, then he isn't doing his job.

Chimerahawk and JonahHawk hit the nail on the head. The ERLL Ravens sit off and snipe, quite often on their own, which is a product of the "damage above all" mentality that makes killstealing a thing. My Dire Wolves haven't killed too many, but that's mostly because my teammates pick 'em off. Pilot behaviour needs to change - maybe replace one of the two ER Larges with some closer ranged weapons, so that if a knifefighter mech DOES get close, the Raven poses more of a threat than the rock every light gets stuck on - a minor annoyance.

JonahGrimm, on 24 June 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

That's what Ravens should be doing - calling down the rain with NARCs, supporting the gunline, and shredding stragglers. This stand-off-and-shoot ... blasphemy is a waste.

This statement is my mentality, and that of a lot of the players I've discussed this with, both Raven lovers and haters alike. If it has to be a combat mech, then this is how it should be played. Not a sniper - Spiders are more dangerous due to the maneuverability and escape that they have, as Chimera pointed out.

Terciel1976, on 24 June 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure. The Raven is cooler and has much better gun mounts. Also, LL (especially those with extra-long burn time) aren't famous for working well with jump jets.

Firstly, I wouldn't argue temperature as a thing, nor gun mounts. Both of these are things a skilled pilot can overcome. Secondly, the JJs aren't for poptarting the large lasers. They're more for getting into safer points and to add to the possible escape routes and the mech's evasion - it's the same principal behind the JJs on the laser-builds on Jesters. Hence why the Spider is so potentially dangerous - it combines speed with JJs and long-range energy weapons.

Edited by Tarriss Halcyon, 24 June 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Fnord Asteroid]

I run a 3L with tag, two ML, LRM 10+artemis, BAP, full sensor module suite. My first mission is to cover and support my team. If there are other ecm mechs and the map supports it, I go sneak and peak, and run like hell back to the line if anything gets too close. Some shenanigans at Caustic Valley come to mind...

My 4x carries an ac2, 2 ML, appropriate modules, does 139 kph. Again, first mission is to support my team, and if conditions exist, I slide to the side and harass. (I shoot for the knee cap) When its called for this surprisingly durable mech can fight at closer ranges. Really shines in the Tourmaline Desert.

I don't get a lot of kills in these mech normally. I am trying to harm/distract the enemy enough so my heavies can finish them more easily. The 'w' and surviving the match are what matter to me.

[TercieI]

Tarriss Halcyon, on 24 June 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Firstly, I wouldn't argue temperature as a thing, nor gun mounts. Both of these are things a skilled pilot can overcome. Secondly, the JJs aren't for poptarting the large lasers. They're more for getting into safer points and to add to the possible escape routes and the mech's evasion - it's the same principal behind the JJs on the laser-builds on Jesters. Hence why the Spider is so potentially dangerous - it combines speed with JJs and long-range energy weapons.

Fair point about the JJ. Heat is less of a factor on a sniper, of course, but the 3ERLL Kit Fox may be so hot it's really a 2ERLL with a very occasional extra punch. I'm not sure. I've just started messing with it. As for gun mounts, no amount of pilot skill can get a Kit Fox's low arm mounts to fire over a ridge without having to expose the whole mech. The Raven only has to show a sliver of itself.

[Gunslinger76]

Huge fan of the 3L. I load it up with the 2xERLL build. I also keep a TAG on it. I stick with a large group of heavy/assault mech offering ECM cover. Then I'll TAG for missle locks and snipe with the ERLL. This provides cover to my teammates while helping their assault. The 2xERLL cannot be ignored either and can be used to knock off components or "herd" mechs as they try to avoid it.

It's not a glamorous build but I believe it adds a lot of cohesion to a team.

[Mark of Caine]

When my unit asked me to do the "meta" Raven 3L build with twin ER LL and ECM for the Beta Tournament in May, I cringed.

Although I complied with the biuld, I did practice sniping with it, and got quite good at exposing only a small amount of the mech while applying damage, but still, it was rather.. meh. I just wasn't fond of the build and I'm still not.

The OP, despite the tone of the post which I looked past, brings up some very good and insightful points I had not considered consciously, but rather knew sub-consciously, so thanks for that.

I've been toying around with a hybrid build that really encompasses the jack-of-all-trades the Raven is known for:

XL 255 (130 kph top speed with Speed Tweak)
1 ER LL
2 ML
ASRM6
ECM
BAP

The build allows for some sniping in certain situations, and it's also good for close quarter combat. It doesn't excel at anything, but it's not deficient either. I can go and scout for the team, which is what I love to do, I can cover the team with ECM and the short range weapons if required, and I can assist in countering 2 ECMs if the need arises. I also enjoy gathering the info for others so that they get the instant info when they target the same mech.

And for modules, I'll add the Advanced Sensor Range to see out to 1200m and extend the BAP's ECM counter buff to 240m I believe (might be wrong about that). Then I can add other stuff like Target Info Gathering, Seismic to detect any light approaching while I scout, and Artillery. And again, I can also swap out some other modules like Target Decay if need be.

The nice thing that I like about my build is that if I play in a group that has LRMs, then I can either swap out a ML for a TAG, I can swap the SRM6 for a NARC, or I can even swap out the ER LL for NARC and TAG. I really enjoy the versatility of my build and the different options and roles it can help with.

For me, personally, capping the speed isn't mandatory. I know full well that even if I were to cap the speed to 150kph, I'll still get gunned down by Jenners and Spiders, so what's the point?

But at least at 130 kph, I can outrun mediums, heavies and assaults relatively easily.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Gunslinger76, on 25 June 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Huge fan of the 3L. I load it up with the 2xERLL build. I also keep a TAG on it. I stick with a large group of heavy/assault mech offering ECM cover. Then I'll TAG for missle locks and snipe with the ERLL. This provides cover to my teammates while helping their assault. The 2xERLL cannot be ignored either and can be used to knock off components or "herd" mechs as they try to avoid it.

It's not a glamorous build but I believe it adds a lot of cohesion to a team.

If you have TAG on it, then you aren't playing it like the traditional ER Large combo, which seems to be a solitary bird aiming to score damage above everything else, and as has been commented, seems to love sitting off on it's own, even on small maps, and trying to snipe. I had one do that to my Dire Wolf Prime on Terra Therma, without realizing that, even with his ECM shroud, I could find him by tracing his laser shots. I've been running dual Gauss for a reason - he was down a leg before he realized I'd seen him.

That's the key issue to the Ravens I'm talking about - the solitary behavior. My Commandos are social hunters. Even my ER Large/2x ML TDK isn't afraid to run through firefights to pick off damaged mechs as they try to escape, no matter if I get shaken around by enemy fire. You're playing a social Raven - a guardian or assault buddy setup. I do the same when playing with friends in assaults while using my COM-2D. If I'm asked to scout and spot, I do so, but I always check allied status. If ECM shows up on an allied mech, I run back and help fend off the mech, typically a Spider or Raven. This is where the Streakmando helps most.

Unfortunately, the two ER Larges CAN be ignored, depending on the firepower that the rest of the mechs you're sitting with brings and/or the health of your target. If you're lucky, you'll just get stung by PPCs a few times while the heavier mechs focus on your allies, which are larger targets. If you're unlucky, light mechs with BAP can jam your ECM, and again, the two ER Large build has limited defense from other lights. Still, it's interesting that you've been experimenting like that.

Caine2112, on 25 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

I've been toying around with a hybrid build that really encompasses the jack-of-all-trades the Raven is known for:

XL 255 (130 kph top speed with Speed Tweak)
1 ER LL
2 ML
ASRM6
ECM
BAP

The build allows for some sniping in certain situations, and it's also good for close quarter combat. It doesn't excel at anything, but it's not deficient either. I can go and scout for the team, which is what I love to do, I can cover the team with ECM and the short range weapons if required, and I can assist in countering 2 ECMs if the need arises. I also enjoy gathering the info for others so that they get the instant info when they target the same mech.

You know, I was actually thinking about doing another forum post, highlighting the fact that some highly touted builds are mainly created through flaws in pilot perception and behavior (for example, the LRM Atlas, and again, the ER Large Raven), and it was a build very similar to this that I came up with for the Raven, with exactly the same sort of versatility ideals behind it - the advantage behind removing the SRM6 also means you get even more weight for NARC pods or heat sinks thanks to the loss of the Artemis. Sure, it probably doesn't have the same damage output as an ER Large Raven, but really, damage in this sense isn't everything. You exemplify the Raven pilots I admire - the ones who aren't afraid to tinker with your mech.

I'm exactly the same with the engine cap ideas - both of the two Commandos I own at the moment, the TDK and 2D, sit around 130kph for a very similar reason. Even at engine cap, Jenners and Spiders dance rings around you, so just go for a speed that allows you to hit and fade, or escape threats, and that works out fine.

Yeah, my tone of voice in that first post was really pathetic, wasn't it? I was frustrated and fuming at the fact that, when I voiced my distaste at Ravens running this build as solo hunters, they basically treated me like someone who had no clue about the mech, when I'd started playing in the weeks after it was released in Closed Beta. Still, I'm glad that you were able to extract some of what I was saying and find it helpful.