178 replies to this topic

[50 50]

All that aside though, we have the clans now and balance is getting better.
It does feel like we have run out of clan mechs to introduce though.
There are a few gaps to fill in with Omnimechs, but the dropship is looking pretty bare.
There is always room to introduce more 2c mechs.... and a few more totem mechs..... but the Elemental is there as an option.

A point to make is that people would pay for the Elementals if they could play them.
Like any of the mechs I am sure it won't appeal to everyone, but there are plenty out there who would grab it.
So from that perspective, there is potential funds that could be made from developing it.

I have pondered over the idea of using them as a consumable and there may be some ways to implement this.
After thinking it over more I have begun moving away from the idea.
As a single shot consumable, it might just have an area effect.... but this doesn't fit that well with how the Elementals operated.
They might instead target a single enemy mech, but how would that work? 5 of them jet towards the enemy, launching missiles then shooting lasers before crashing to the ground dead?
Potentially way too much damage to a single mech and it just seems cheesy.
As a deployable option to be used with an enhanced commander feature? Maybe.
Need to build in that functionality first.

In regards to the game being 'Mech Warrior', I completely understand that argument.
At the moment, the combat is really good.
It's dynamic.
Often brutal.
Glorious in detail and effects.
However, new mechs don't evolve the combat, it's more of a lateral shift.
Elementals would. They add different tactical options to the game play.
It does not look like the Firemoth will be introduced any time soon so there is still no 20ton option for the Clan.
The Elemental could fill that spot and given how they were meant to operate with the Omnimechs and fight against enemy mechs it would be great to see them seriously considered.

I've watched various clips of the elementals in MW:LL and while it was cool to see them there, I thought they could be done much better in MWO.

[VinJade]

as long as Russ and most of his people hate Clans I don't see this going well at all.

Unless Russ hires some who don't have it out for the clans I don't see you guys getting anything nice.

however I will grant you that they are getting better, but I wonder if that is because of the player base or some pressure elsewhere...

In any case it is nice that they are finely bringing the Clans kind of up to par with the IS machines(which they wouldn't have had to do if they didn't let their hate for clan stuff cloud their judgement).

Though I think it would be better if you guys wait because there is a good chance that they will purposely screw you guys over in some way making the the toads most likely unusable.

With all that said, I by no means hat the game and in fact I enjoy it for what it is, a nice mecha first person shooter that is better done than MA or others like it.

Edited by VinJade, 10 April 2016 - 11:11 PM.

[50 50]

Agree with you about this being a top first person mech shooter.
It's a lot of fun and there are some terrific pilots out there.

I am sure we shall see plenty more mechs in the coming months and years.
I do like how there are distinct mechs between the IS and Clan side of things and I think it's important to keep that. Further distinction between the different factions would also be good, as Kael 17 made mention of.
Adding a bit of depth through mech restrictions or unique faction variants (really just for faction play) gives players a bit of a reason to join that faction.
That's why I feel we need to keep the IS and clan tech separate as well.

Anyway, that's all a bit off topic.

The Elementals not only represent another option in expanding what we can take into the field of battle, but they also represent adding features and depth into the combat and there is a certain level of excitement in thinking about the possibilities.

[VinJade]

oh I agree, about keeping them separate when it comes to CW & clan tech only for clan mechs, and a restriction about what mechs a player has access to during CW if they are not Mercs(who has access to all tech because of black markets and things *falling off trucks* and all that, lol) who are still independent contractors and can switch sides once their contracts end.

Anyways back on topic;
I wouldn't mind seeing toads and maybe even standard crunches for the IS, I just don't like the idea of seeing goods units getting the shaft by someone who clearly has a grudge against clan stuff for whatever personal reasons it might be.

They wish to use Battletech's name to get players then they need to suck it up and put their personal hate to the side and do their best to create a balanced system across the board and not screw you clanners over which odds are would happen if you got your toads.

[50 50]

It seems a bit that way.
I have to admit to not knowing the full story or perhaps not understanding some of the intricacies of what went down with IGP but the game has come a long way since then and is better for it in every respect.
Your comments did prompt me to make another post after a pondering the problem for a while.
I put it in the community warfare section and would be interested on your perspectives:
http://mwomercs.com/...succession-war/

With the Elementals, maybe it's something that might be more viable when the collisions get better.
Perhaps this may be a serious option with the new game engine... if that happens.
However it would certainly be possible to introduce them at this current point with more limited capabilities and expand on that later on.
There is some development required to make it work which would involve some new features added (ie. being able to mount and dismount a clan mech) but these don't seem like impossible tasks.
Hopefully with a solid enough concept they might be introduced 'as is' without being dismissed off hand or DOA.

So on that note, here's a summary of how I would like to see them introduced.

• About 3m high... consider them the size of an urban mech's leg.
  
• 1 ton of armour so there is a bit of resilience... what's that... about 20 points?
  
• A few points of internal 'structure' to represent the squishy chewy centre.
  
• Single hitbox... I mean, once you get though the armour... it's not like they will survive with a missing arm, leg or torso...
  
• Adaptable hard points for the equipment so there can be a bit of variety.Essentially the default small laser, missile and claw would be around 1.5 tons worth based on existing weapons, so there could be options for some different loadouts.
  
• Separate weapon list (BA equipment) so it can be easily adjusted without messing up any of the other mech stuff.
  
• Top speed to match the Direwolf at 50 something kph with speed tweak.
  
• Different movement archtype so they strafe and turn like other FPS games.
  
• Jump capability of about 90m.
  
• With unique weapons there can be unique modules.
  
• Some unique consumables can be added. (Hargel, detonation packs, sensor pod, narc pod, drop beacon... I might explain these ideas later)
  
• Adapt the rear CT of the Omni mechs so a single elemental can be carried. (Less parts to update that way)... like a weapon hard point they can be coded to show the elemental in that position when they are mounted.
  
• New key binding to mount and dismount from Omnimechs.
  
• Respawn using something similar to or an adaption of the spectator view so the point of 5 stays true.(Just use them one at a time)
  
• Unique skill tree would be nice, perhaps when that whole area gets looked at there will be unique options for each mech?
  
• A few defensive features to enable some level of survivability. (ie. not detected on radar, no falling damage, not slowed down on hills, etc)
  
• A few adaptions so they work with other mechanics. (ie. no heat scale because there is no engine and therefore no heat dissipation.)

Ahhhhh..... that'll do me for the moment.

[Karl Streiger]

OK finally i have to deviate from my point of view regarding elementals

reason?
Ryoken III and Gestalt -
no Gyro and the cockpit would weight 1t more (so its a weight increase of 1-3tons for all mechs, not to mention the 4 additional crits in the CT

Last not leas when you eject you find your self in a BattleArmor - not that you will do much damage

[VinJade]

actually Clan elementals can still go with missing limbs due to hargel(I think thats what it is called) that stops bleeding and deaden pain which allows them to fight on.

now the center torso having a hole in it is a different matter, lol.

After all toads was bred for combat within their suits and they are deadly even if missing a limb or two.

Edited by VinJade, 13 April 2016 - 06:59 PM.

[50 50]

Tough little buggers.
I think that with the size of the Elementals it's not a good idea to have more than one hit box.
Their toughness can be simulated by adjusting their 'internal structure' points.
Then having HarGel as a consumable is a great idea.
Given the elementals are fairly fragile if we consider the way mechs can dish out the punishment, then using HarGel as a consumable could 'repair/heal' them as a one off for that Elemental.
This could simply heal their 'internal structure' and repair the armour. It's a little similar to the cool shots for mechs and it could have as many varieties.
Something to consider.

Similar options with other consumables as well.
Replace the UAV with a sensor beacon that gets dropped on the ground.
Replace the airstrike and artillery with a detonation pack and narc pack that needs to be attached to a mech.

There is the possibility to give them quite a bit of depth and functionality making them useful and without overpowering them.

Edited by 50 50, 14 April 2016 - 07:37 PM.

[VinJade]

the gel doesn't act as anything like that, it just stops bleeding and removes the pain.

I think it should work more like allowing the toad to still be functional after losing a limb.
losing a leg their JJs on their back would still allow them limited movement but on the draw back uses fuel iirc from the fluff and that should be incorporated into it giving it x amount of JJ fuel forcing the toad to be used wisely.

however if it does lose a leg then it should have 0 movement outside of jumping.

[50 50]

No, not quite as explained in the lore, but I think adding multiple hit boxes to the elementals is not a good idea.
They are a bit too small for it and it's going to spread what little armour they do have very thinly.
I believe that to make them viable there should be just the one hit location with a total amount of armour.
Bit like the turrets. Doesn't matter which direction or where you hit them, they can only take a certain amount of damage.
Hence why suggesting the HarJel could repair the armour.

In fitting with what the HarJel did: if the body of the elemental themselves, which is effectively the internal structure, had enough points then as those points are lost the elemental's effectiveness is reduced. This is similar in nature to what happens with the Clan X engines.
The HarJel could then serve as the pain-killer/wound sealant as described.
I am against the internal structure being greater than the armour. That would seem ridiculous.
So,an example:
If the Elemental has 20 points of armour.... say they have 10 points of body/internal structure.
The 10 points could simply represent 100% effectiveness and gets reduced as they take damage until 0 and death.
The HarJel could restore those points.

Perhaps this does start to get a little too over complicated though. It would seem simpler to have less body/internal structure so once through the armour they are not going to stand up to mech weaponry unrealistically. The HarJel then serves as 'armour sealant' to keep them going a bit longer.

Initially I looked at the existing mech consumables and thought the HarJel would fit the spot of the Coolshots with similar levels of effectiveness.
As with any of these ideas, feedback and testing would be required.
Good fun talk about it!

[50 50]

It's been a while since I bumped this thread so it's about time to bring it back into the light!
Come forth ye developers and make it so!

Personally I love that we see more mechs each month.
It's great.
I love the variety and have to say the concept art and models are just awesome.

But... Clans are still missing a 20 ton option.

So to sum up a possible implementation, this is about getting the Elementals in game as a option to fill that 20 ton slot.
How?

Each Elemental is approximately 4 tons. 1 ton of armour, about 1.5 tons of weaponry, about .5 tons of jump jets, another .5 in myomer bundles, powercells, actuators and life support.... then the living Elemental is probably a good 500kg of genetically engineered brutality.

So, to get them to work, we use them one at a time and have a deploy option from the spectator view so they can 'deploy' from a mech. 5 in total, there's the 20 tons.

Create copies of the MG, Flamer, Small Laser and SRM2 and designate them as Battlearmour weapons so they can be adjusted without messing up the mech weapons.

Create the battleclaw as a short range, high crit weapon.... be nice if it could let you hang onto a target but can work that out later. Give it the same mechanic as the gauss charge up so it feels like a melee attack. (ie. The grab is the charge up, release it to tear the armour or hold to cancel and release.) Nice little animation to go with it.

Speed wise, same as a Direwolf.

Jump range around 90m.

Bind a key to allow attaching to a mech to hitch a ride (the open missile door button for example). Allow one spot to ride on the CT rear of omni mechs. Essentially a unique hard point but only having one on the CT Rear of omni's makes for less work.

Only the one hit location. Way too small to worry about multiple hit locations, plus with a living internal structure (The Elemental) getting through the armour will likely result in death.

Unique consumables and skill tree would be nice. ie. HarJel, Detonation packs, Beacons etc.

There are plenty of arguments for and against including Elementals, but we have mechs... lots of them.
Lets bring in something different!!

[Guile Votoms]

Remove air and artillery strikes from Clans and give them an elemental consumable instead.

Edited by Guile Votoms, 05 December 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

50 50, on 18 September 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

So, to get them to work, we use them one at a time and have a deploy option from the spectator view so they can 'deploy' from a mech. 5 in total, there's the 20 tons.

Create the battleclaw as a short range, high crit weapon.... be nice if it could let you hang onto a target but can work that out later. Give it the same mechanic as the gauss charge up so it feels like a melee attack. (ie. The grab is the charge up, release it to tear the armor or hold to cancel and release.) Nice little animation to go with it.

A single Elemental suit at a time? Not really practical. I was thinking that we would drop with an entire point and be able to give orders to the rest of the point like the automated comm menu (Enemy Spotted, Thank You, etc) like "Hold Fire", "Hold Position", "Target Left Leg", and so on. When the lead suit we are in gets destroyed, we just jump into another suit and keep fighting.

With the claw, a "charge up" is not practical either. Rather, it should be deal steady but continuous damage. Once you grab on to an enemy mech (which in itself is not going to be very easy) it just continuously deals damage to whatever body part it is latched onto until it is either eventually destroyed or disengaged. Simple as that.

That rest was okay.

Looking into the old Battletech novels (reading Test of Vengeance right now), I am reminded that the Elementals were typically carried into battle in carriers on the mechs (that was the Firemoth's primary duty). So there is no reason why it should not work the same here as well.

[50 50]

If it could be done nicely with controling a whole point at once then that would be great. I felt that controlling 5 entities at once might have several problems. Inverse Kinetics might help so we don't see any hovering in mid air and controlling the multiple weapons is little more than the weapon group controls we have now.
Where I see some problems are:
In conforming with terrain so they can move through narrow areas as a group.
Collision and physics effects where one or more of the Elementals might miss landing on the terrain or going past an obstacle.
Handling view point for the player particularly if the entity you are viewing from is destroyed.
How to treat the point of 5 as members are killed.

Hence pushing the single entity with the re-drop function to get through the 5 per point. Thought it would be easier.

While I do love seeing all the new mechs, I also feel that they could be a bit more adventurous and break that pattern. Elementals would be a welcome addition to the Clan forces.

[Jep Jorgensson]

I was thinking that the other 4 would be AI controlled unless you took personal command of them (like how we can shift from mech to mech after our last one is destroyed).

Have a "Follow the Leader" command. That would allow them to pass through anything you could.

PGI already stated that they are (finally) improving the collision aspect with the next patch. So that should take care of it. If not, it can always be improved on even further.

Refer back to the first paragraph.

If an elemental is destroyed then it is destroyed. If it was the last of our point then you would drop in your next mech or point of choice (if there are any left to drop).

I would not consider it easier to attack the enemy one at a time rather than five at a time.

I agree.

I am enjoying our discussion here. Are there any other concerns that you have regarding this issue?

[ArchSight]

I want to see a AI battle armor consumable in MWO. This is how I would go about it.

Drops a single battle armor infront of the player's mech and runs towards the player's cross hair when it was activated.
Assuming if everyone on your team carries a battle armor consumable they'll be 12 on a team.

It stands at that position until a mech walks into range of it's activation. (Like a Homing Mine with a big radius)

It chases and shoots it's armament at the mech until it attaches itself to the mech.

If it doesn't attach itself to a mech in a certain amount of time, it stops chasing the mech, and returns to standing until another mech activates it by running into range of it.

The BA's have a single hitbox and can be shot dead before getting on a mech or while on a friendly mech.

When the battle armor attaches itself to a mech it goes through a choice of which hitboxes it attaches itself too until it reaches the mech pilots cockpit. Leg to torso and then cockpit.

The BA's take a certain amount of time to change their choice of hitboxes to attach too. This time provides the chance to be shot off.

Every hitbox the BA attaches too receives a set amount of damage and the cockpits armor is removed when the BA gets there.

The BA appears in the player's cockpit view and is animated to remove the glass plane with it's armament.

The player's pilot grabs a on board weapon and the player gets the ability to shoot the BA dead with mouse 1.

The BA will always die at this point unless the player doesn't click mouse 1 in time. The amount of time to click mouse 1 could be made easy for new player's to achieve.

Multiple BA's on the mech will not engage the removal of the glass plane animation if the cockpit armor is removed.

The time for BA's to switch to attacking the cockpit is halted if another BA is already attacking it. This it to give the pilot some breathing room to prevent being interrupted all the time by a BA shoot it dead animation. The longer it takes for a BA to switch hitbox choice will extend this amount of time.

Possible, BA's should not be affected by the games slope mechanics so they don't have to know when to use their Jump Jets to reach their target.

A Idle BA could also be picked up by the player who used that consumable so they can reuse and change it's position. This isn't a priority.

Different types of BA consumables is a cool idea but starting out with a Clan and IS version that can be earned via unlock would be the best.

[50 50]

Personally I hope they are pilotable. I'd be straight onto that bandwagon as soon as it was announced and I know many others who would be equally as eager to play as one.

I think we also have a great opportunity to develop them in MWO better than they have been done in other titles and there are things a player will do that an AI will not.

With the view change Jep, I was thinking more along the lines of it being a bit disconcerting to swap from one to another in the heat of battle should the entity you happen to be viewing from is destroyed. I can only think that a 3rd person view would be the way around this but, that just wouldn't be the same. I mean, you really want that feel of being able to look up at a mech towering above you, then latch on to it's gyro's and break them.

I feel that the level of control you get with just one would give them a better feel and make it more personal.

The fragility of the Elemental was also a factor for leaning towards just having 1 at a time. Given most mechs have a damage output that would cut straight through one, being able to redeploy lessens that sense of being so fragile. Where as if you have the entire point running about, you could lose the entire lot in a second. They won't be able to escape combat, so not being seen is their biggest defense and that will be easier solo. The redeploy will also make it seem like there are plenty of them running about and it simulates the 'ride into battle' option quite well and it would be easier to make an adjustment just to the rear center torso of the omnimechs instead of 5 different areas to accommodate a single Elemental hitching a ride.

Having the dropdeck for faction play makes the process a little awkward, but given recent changes and what's still to come, I'm not sure that's much of an issue. Just need the option to re-deploy from an existing mech or return to drop ship.

The biggest problem is the reduction in firepower. As a collective group, 5 ER smalls, 5 SRM 2s and 5 claws is fairly substantial. While in no way would I suggest a lone Elemental is the equivalent of a 20 ton mech, tweaking the weapons and providing some unique consumables could alleviate that disadvantage to some degree. In the end, they are there to support the mechs so if they can get in and disrupt, prevent a mech from escaping and let their team mates close in for the kill, then they have been successful.

Completely agree that any improvements to the collisions is a good thing. No arguments there. If it becomes possible to latch onto an enemy mech and start ripping away at the armour..... awesome.

[Jep Jorgensson]

That makes two of us.

We shall see.

Only the desperate or insane would attack a mech with a single Elemental. There is a reason why they have five in a point. 5 Elementals = 1 mech. If I am in a mech and I see one Elemental attacking me, I am going to laugh. If I see five attacking me, I am going to start sweating. Given how fragile they are, sending them out "one at a time" to get slaughtered "one at a time" is crazy. Relying on them getting overquircked is folly and would make us no better than the IS stravegs. Besides, how would "one at a time" work in QP?

A point of Elementals can easily ride on a mech. Read "Test of Vengeance" and see for yourself.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 14 December 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[50 50]

The redeploy option I was seeing as a simple button from the spectator screen when you die. Cycle through the mechs and jump back into battle.
This wouldn't be required if we can get the full point but seemed like an elegant way to manage how the Elementals rode into battle without too much work.
I'd be happy either way, so lets discuss some of the features.


It was discussed earlier in the post about setting up the Elementals like a mech with each Elemental making up a part. However rules such as loss of leg, headshots and damage transfer don't apply and I would also think that the hit registration might be an issue if we consider the space inbetween each elemental. But perhaps this is not as much of a problem as I might be thinking and treating them as a single entity with relatively small and segmented hit boxes might work. I'd hope with things like Inverse Kinetics and updates to the collisions that they would conform to terrain and change formation as needed. Using the key we have to open missile bay doors, it would be nice to allow a closed/open formation option for them.

Being able to mount/dismount from Omnimechs would not only be true to how the Elementals deployed, but it would look very cool in game and I know from previous comments that there are players who would like this co-operative level of teamwork. There are a couple of considerations to look into.
When the Elementals are mounted, they will block weapons and jump jets in the torso. To prevent friendly fire incidents one might think that these weapons and jump jets should be automatically disabled. For this situation, the mech pilot needs an option to eject the Elementals as well as the Elementals being able to mount and dismount on their own. This will help alleviate potential and unintended problems such as disconnects or communication failures and is only a function for allied units. Some message in the HUD for the mech pilot would also be a good idea.

If we can get that far, then I don't see it being too much of a step to get a swarm attack happening. In the end this involves the Elementals leaping at the target and attacking with the claw. With a point of five we should expect them to all hit different areas but if the player is always considered the 'central point' for targeting, it shouldn't be anything more than a scatter effect to determine where the other Elementals connect and then it's all about the hit boxes.

The 'latch on' with the claw I felt would be nicely done with a more manual process instead of just hold down the fire button.
Hence the idea to use something like the Gauss Charge. Holding the trigger down would feel like punching out with the claw and then while held, maintaining the grab. Releasing the trigger then gives that ripping effect and does the damage. This would allow the Elementals to latch on to enemy mechs, or non-omni friendlies and hangon until they release.
I would think with physics effects and knowing where the hit was established it should be possible to position the Elemental appropriately.
If there is too much warping or the shaking then the Elemental should drop off.

Would you agree with the following:

Each Elemental should be about 4 tons.
An ER Small Laser is .5 tons. (Or flamer at .5 tons or MG with some ammo... lets say a .5 ton bundle)
An SRM2 with one reload would be around .6 tons.
In Lore they had 10 points of armour which be around .6 tons. Might suggest 1 ton of armour for MWO given the differences with the weapons.
The claw didn't really have stats but lets say that it is also .5 tons.
Jump Jets... once again no stats but they had a couple, lets say .5 tons.
Other components such as life support, computers, myomer bundles, power supplies etc... lets say another .5 tons.
And that's just the BattleArmour itself.
The Elemental is a genetically engineered giant about 3m tall and probably weighing in around .5 tons themselves.

That would handily make the point of 5 the equivalent of a 20 ton mech. Something the Clans are missing right at the moment.

Movement wise they are reputed to jump 90m.
Land speed I believe calculated out at 10kph based on the Table Top turns and hex sizes but is a bit rediculous.
Average human walking speed is around 5kph. (3mph)
We are talking about 3m tall genetically engineered super soldiers in power armour.
I would suggest their land speed be the equivalent of a Direwolf at around the 48kph running speed.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Elementals are not body parts. They are five separate entities.

Reading "Test of Vengeance", it mentions that the Elementals hang on to the Elemental hand-holds on the back and sides of their mechs and that said mechs can still fight with them mounted with no difficulty.

While the claw can punch, its anti-mech value comes from ripping the armor open like a can opener. So I am thinking that it would do say 1 damage every 0.5 seconds with a high crit value when they latch on.

They should have their weapons hardpoints like our mechs so we can customize their loadouts.

As tempting as Dire Wolf speed would be, I have to disagree. That should have Lore speed and abilities. Including, after the SRM's are empty, the SRM launcher falls away, thereby speed and performance are increased.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 14 December 2016 - 10:51 AM.