19 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

The LB2-X and the LB5-X are extremely ineffective at anything beyond 400m (200m for the LB2-X)

I am sure they are dealing damage correctly but the spread of the pellets is so wide that it is rare that one will connect with any enemy mech.

I would suggest adding more pellets and lowering the damage of each pellet.

LB2-X
Fires 10 pellets that each do 0.2 dmg with a very tight spread - about 1/2 of what the lb10-X does. This is so you can hit targets at it's effective 810m range with most of the pellets

LB5-X
Fires 10 pellets that each do 0.5 dmg with a tight spread - At the effective range the LB5-X should hit the target with the majority of it's pellets.

The whole idea behind LBX weapons is that they should be easier to hit targets at the cost of diffusing damage.

By giving each LBX a minimum of 10 pellets each we can achieve this result.

[reaverOfCheesecake]

hmmm... i like your idea but you might find that increasing the number of pellets might be enough without needing to adjust the spread. maybe a two fold test will be needed: add the extra pellets and if the damage is still too low due to missing, then adjust the spread... i think it does also encourage the clan mechs to close in more for ballistics usage, giving the IS mechs a ballistic advantage. Which is fine considering that Clan mechs have a missile advantage (being able to bring more lrm's to the battlefield over IS... even if they can be shot down more easily)

[Carrioncrows]

reaverOfCheesecake, on 25 June 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

hmmm... i like your idea but you might find that increasing the number of pellets might be enough without needing to adjust the spread. maybe a two fold test will be needed: add the extra pellets and if the damage is still too low due to missing, then adjust the spread... i think it does also encourage the clan mechs to close in more for ballistics usage, giving the IS mechs a ballistic advantage. Which is fine considering that Clan mechs have a missile advantage (being able to bring more lrm's to the battlefield over IS... even if they can be shot down more easily)

The LB2-X has an effective range of 810m

At 810m you should be able to hit the target with the majority of those pellets. So in essence you have to make the spread tighter to get that sort of controlled groupings.

Otherwise at 810m you will be lucky to hit the guy with 1 pellet.

[Summon3r]

indeed lbx2 in its current state is utterly useless, the more pellet idea is a good one

[Grendel408]

The IS LB-10X weapon is really only effective up to 500 meters before the spread is entirely too much to rely upon. It's a shotgun... shotguns (spread/buckshot) are close-range weapons. Think of any LB-class ACs as that and you'll be fine Don't always trust the "effective range" of a weapon... there's an "effective range," and the "I can still hit you but only scratch you range," that some folks fail to notice. Try a private match with some friends to test weapons, you'd be amazed.

[Tim East]

By that reasoning, LB groupings should be tighter all around, since you could theoretically hit with all pellets up to the standard range of the weapon in TT. Frankly, the LB2's current in-game listed range far exceeds its practical range, rendering it somewhat a weapon of poor quality. At closer range, you're probably going to choose a higher LB due to the damage per ton and the improved likelihood of pellets connecting due to more pellets firing. At further range, you're not likely to pick an LB at all, since there is no guarantee you'll even hit your target with anything past a certain point, even if your aim is flawless.

I suppose what I'm saying is, bring back the LBX2's role as a harassment weapon, please.

[reaverOfCheesecake]

Ah, I think i see where the problem is... the trouble is, Clan mechs do not have a single fire ballistic weapon. the closest we have to it is the LB weapons which are really shotguns as Grendel408 suggested. the effective range of a shotgun should be less so really the lb2-x and lb5-x should have their description changed in the mech bay. I don't want the current effective range to be reduced as this would mean that the damage would fall off for each pellet far too soon, unless they changed the ballistic stats for LB's, which IMHO, IGP will not do. The only direct fire, single shot ballistic weapon that the clans have is the machine gun (each round does the described damage) and the guass rifle. All other ballistics are spread over multiple pellets which is putting a few people off using them.

on the other hand, the balancing isn't too bad and it puts the clan mechs (including my own btw) at a disadvantage in certain situations when using ballistics. I do understand that this is frustrating though, and i have a few fixes i would love to see, but I am afraid to suggest anything that will unbalance the game. clan mechs are supposed to have hardly any disadvantages according to lore, and should generally own IS mechs, until the IS develop the technology and tactics to counter them later on (melee battle being the clans biggest weak point), but you cannot simply introduce clan mechs without them having some disadvantages otherwise hardcore IS pilots will not be able to compete and cannot have fun.

Sorry for stating some obvious points but they need to be said.

[Malcolm Decker]

Low number of pellets is a major issue for the 2 but not so much for the 5. Mainly they need a reduced spread to make them able to hit an atlas-sized silhouette at their effective range. While larger LBX's do function like a mech-sized shotgun, the smaller ones were usually used as a long-range anti-aircraft weapon. True, they use cluster rounds, but its 3050 so the sub-munition you're firing is a little more advanced than some lead pellets stacked on top of paper wadding.

I don't think a long range LBX would be unbalanced in any way. Even in the best case scenario, you land the better part of 2 (or 5) damage spread over 2-4 hit locations. They still wouldn't be as good as an IS light autocannon but they might be worth the tonnage it takes to mount them. As it is now, the LB-2X is eating pizza at the kid's table along with the flamer and the clan small pulse laser.

[Bigbacon]

i tried dual LBX2s on a nova for a bit and it was useless over just the regular AC2 or the UAC2. All it can do is front load the damage in one trigger pull at the same time assuming both rounds hits where as burst rounds hit in succession. it didn't make a whole lot of sense since the others have accuracy where as the LBX is just kind of random.

only thing I can see the LBX2 being ok for would be trying to hit fast lights and hoping you score a hit but you'd be better off saving the weight for something else than could probably do more damage and be easier to hit with.

Edited by Bigbacon, 26 June 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Nik Reaper]

Heres a better question, why isn't LBX like in the lore , exploading cluster ammunition? This means it flys like an AC round but on impact it explodes and does splash damage , but hey I'm never agains tighter spread .

[reaverOfCheesecake]

yeah... maybe your right about the spread Malcolm Decker. I must admit that i like that balance of the game atm and am concerned about seeing it altered. I will admit that i have removed the lb-5-x from my kit fox in exchange for a cuac/2, which i like better atm due to the straight flying slugs. I think that IGP should maybe allow gamers to experiment with the goupings a bit on the test server and see how things go.

[ollo]

Grendel408, on 25 June 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

The IS LB-10X weapon is really only effective up to 500 meters before the spread is entirely too much to rely upon. It's a shotgun... shotguns (spread/buckshot) are close-range weapons. Think of any LB-class ACs as that and you'll be fine Don't always trust the "effective range" of a weapon... there's an "effective range," and the "I can still hit you but only scratch you range," that some folks fail to notice. Try a private match with some friends to test weapons, you'd be amazed.

That's another problem with mixing tabletop rules with realtime mechanics in an inappropriate way. LBXs are supposed to scatter at a defined distance from the target, so the effective range would be ok (it doesn't matter if you're 50 or 500m away for the scatter cone coverage, only the pellets dmg degrades with distance).

PGI's implementation (maybe also because of technical limitations) is off in this regard - so we're suggesting workaround solutions that hopefully solve the issues with the wrong implementation. But it's OK, because as everyone should know by now, TT and RT don't mix up very well unless implementing even worse replications (like random convergence or similar crap that would do nothing but frustrate everyone).

ECM and information warfare implementation on the other hand...

[Bigbacon]

actually, I never had a proble m with the LBX mechanics in the game. the LBX10+ seems like a great deal for a lot a reason at times. the 5 is meh and the 2 is pointless only outclass in pointlessness by the flamer.

I like using the LBX10

[Strum Wealh]

Nik Reaper, on 26 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Heres a better question, why isn't LBX like in the lore , exploading cluster ammunition? This means it flys like an AC round but on impact it explodes and does splash damage , but hey I'm never agains tighter spread .

Because you've misread the lore, Nik - it's not that the LB-X cluster rounds "flys like an AC round but on impact it explodes and does splash damage" (your words, complete with misspellings), but that the cluster rounds function like real-world vehicular canister rounds, like the 120mm M1028 Canister Cartridge used by the Abrams Main Battle Tank: the LB-X cluster round fragments and releases its submunitions at muzzle-exit, causing it to behave like a very large anti-vehicular shotgun shell.

The difference between the LB-X cluster round and the flechette rounds fired by Standard ACs is that the LB-X cluster round submunitions are themselves explosive, being similar to bomblets or grenades. By contrast, the submunitions of the flechette round are inert metal shrapnel, like the tungsten balls released by the M1028 round.

This is further contrasted with the "flak rounds" also used by Standard ACs, which were modeled on the now-obsolete "Shrapnel shells" developed during the late 1700s; "Shrapnel shells were anti-personnel artillery munitions which carried a large number of individual bullets close to the target and then ejected them to allow them to continue along the shell's trajectory and strike the target individually... The munition has been obsolete since the end of World War I for anti-personnel use, when it was superseded by high-explosive shells for that role."

[Spheroid]

Strum you are not correct in this. The round does not fall apart upon leaving the barrel. It breaks up near the target most likely from a proximity fuze.

They have boardgame weapons with fewer cluster hits at range(i.e. HAGs). The LBX in no way resembles this. Lore does not support your view.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 June 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Spheroid, on 28 June 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Strum you are not correct in this. The round does not fall apart upon leaving the barrel. It breaks up near the target most likely from a proximity fuze.

They have boardgame weapons with fewer cluster hits at range(i.e. HAGs). The LBX in no way resembles this. Lore does not support your view.

Actually, it does.

"In addition to firing standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-BattleMech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location." (Technical Readout: 2750, pg. 08)

"The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions. This improves the attacker’s chances of striking a critical location but disperses total damage by spreading hits over the target area rather than concentrating the damage on one location. Cluster munitions can be used only in LB-X autocannon, not in standard or Ultra autocannon types." (Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 132)

"An improvement on the common autocannon intended to expand the weapon’s role into anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work, the LB-X makes use of light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce its weight and thermal buildup. These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons. However, the slight range increase and the ability to switch between standard-style bursts and explosive cluster munitions - both specially developed for this weapon system - more than mitigate this higher cost." (TechManual, pg. 207)

"Natasha's laugh survived computer modulation intact. "Of course. Would you prefer that they use a strategy that makes them comfortable or uncomfortable?"
"Point taken. This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe. Once you've softened him up, your lasers ought to cut him to ribbons."
Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"
"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."" - Natasha Kerensky & Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19

Nearly every sourcebook & novel in which they appear describes LB-X cluster rounds as behaving similarly to large shotgun shells, with there being not even a single canonical statement that supports the notion that they possess any form of proximity detonation mechanism.
Additionally, several sourcebooks list the LB-X's other munitions as "slugs" in the cost tables, despite their being anything but that (as slugs, by definition, are solid projectiles that carry no explosive charge, while LB-X "slug munitions" are HEAP/APHE shells like those fired by Standard ACs - which, by definition, carry an explosive charge); the "slug" designation is a reference to shotgun slugs & used to contrast this with the shotshell-like behavior of the LB-X cluster rounds and further emphasixe the LB-X's comparison to a gigantic shotgun.

Moreover, BattleTech has specific gameplay rules for proximity-detonation rounds (in the form of "Air-Burst Rifle Munitions" for handheld rifles, described on page 20 of Combat Equipment), and the LB-X cluster rounds behavior does not resemble the behavior of these weapons (wherein "...the player must announce to the gamemaster the range at which the player intends to program the munitions to pre-detonate (up to the maximum range of the rifle itself). Up to the announced range, the munitions function like standard explosive ammunition, but they automatically detonate once they reach the programmed distance, causing blast damage based on the firing weapon’s normal damage...").

So, what canonical sources support your assertion that LB-X cluster rounds possess any form of proximity detonation mechanism?

[Spheroid]

^ Use your brain dude. LBX acts just like flak rounds for standard autocannons. Are you saying that flak AC rounds are grapeshot? Of course not.

All your quotes say that it breaks up after firing. Semantically there is nothing incorrect by this happening as the result of a fuzed warhead.

I am a member of the battletech forums we can take our argument there if you want definitive rulings.

The exploding canister model goes way, way back. Why do you think they modeled it in that fashion for MechWarrior 2? Programming wise doing it as a shotgun would have been easier.

Why does cluster shot have the same effective range as the slug in TT? Do you think air drag does not affect the submunitions?

I can find quotes supporting my view as well but it is going to take a long time to manually search all my tech manuals for the relevant passages.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 June 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Spheroid, on 28 June 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

^ Use your brain dude. LBX acts just like flak rounds for standard autocannons. Are you saying that flak AC rounds are grapeshot? Of course not.

All your quotes say that it breaks up after firing. Semantically there is nothing incorrect by this happening as the result of a fuzed warhead.

I am a member of the battletech forums we can take our argument there if you want definitive rulings.

The exploding canister model goes way, way back. Why do you think they modeled it in that fashion for MechWarrior 2? Programming wise doing it as a shotgun would have been easier.

Why does cluster shot have the same effective range as the slug in TT? Do you think air drag does not affect the submunitions?

I can find quotes supporting my view as well but it is going to take a long time to manually search all my tech manuals for the relevant passages.

"A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions. This style of submunition was particularly effective against vehicles, but also proved effective for short-range anti-aircraft flak, and for dispersing attacking infantry." - Era Report: 2750, pg. 98
"Cluster Ammunition: For attacks made with cluster munitions, apply a –1 modifier to the to-hit number at all ranges. Resolve successful attacks as a cluster weapon (see LB-X Weapons, p. 120).
When firing cluster munitions, LB-X autocannons cannot make aimed shots, and they also lose the benefits of the firing unit’s targeting computer (if any); see Targeting Computer, p. 143.
Flak: Cluster ammo can be used to make flak attacks (see Flak, p. 114)."

"Despite having been a proven technology in ages past, flak autocannon ammunition remains uncommon today. Intended to deal with airborne combatants such as VTOLs and fighters, this ammunition uses proximity charges to detonate in mid-air. While potent against fast-moving targets susceptible to foreign object damage (FOD), flak ammo is less effective against slower-moving targets on the ground because the charges scatter their shrapnel too far and too quickly to benefit from the target’s mobility." - Tactical Operations, pg. 352
"Game Rules: Flak ammunition provides an autocannon with the same number of shots per ton as an equivalent standard ammo bin. When fired, flak ammo generates the same heat and reaches the same ranges as a standard AC round, but only inflicts full damage when used to deliver a flak attack against airborne VTOLs and aerospace units (using the rules on p. 114, TW), or when fired against conventional infantry. Against all other units - including battle armored infantry and grounded aerospace units - flak AC ammo inflicts half its normal rated damage." - Tactical Operations, pg. 352

"F: Flak. When used against airborne aerospace units or VTOLs and WiGEs, apply a –2 to-hit modifier in addition to any other modifiers such weapons might convey. Treat all other aspects of the attack as normal. (Some weapons may include a better or worse modifier, as described in the Notes section of the appropriate Weapons and Equipment Table for those specific weapons.)" - Total Warfare, pg. 114

"Flechette rounds are similar to LB-X cluster rounds, except they release a shower of metal slivers instead of shotgun-like flak. Designed to combat unarmored infantry, these rounds are ineffective against armored targets." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 133
"Flechette Ammunition: Developed by the FedSuns in 3055 for standard ACs, flechette munitions deliver a shotgun-like blast of metal shards rather than a stream of shells. Intended for use against infantry, flechette rounds can wipe out entire platoons of conventional troops in seconds and can even ravage battle-armored squads, but this ammo type loses effectiveness against armored targets such as vehicles and ‘Mechs." - TechManual, pg. 208
"Flechette Ammunition: Double the standard Damage Value against conventional infantry; half damage to all other units (round down). This damage is in addition to the doubling of damage against conventional infantry in a clear hex. In addition, double the standard damage against woods hexes." - Total Warfare, pg. 141 (Errata 2.2 changes “Double the standard Damage Value against conventional infantry;...” to "Apply the standard Damage Value of the autocannon to conventional infantry as though the attack were from an infantry unit;...")

No, Spheroid, the LB-X cluster rounds do not act like the "Flak rounds" used by Standard (and Light) ACs; LB-X cluster rounds and Flechette rounds are both described as "shotgun style" & "shotgun-like" in contrast to the Flak rounds, the LB-X cluster rounds receive an additional to-hit bonus where Flak & Flechette rounds do not, LB-X rounds do not halve their damage against most targets like Flechette & Flak rounds do, and only the LB-X cluster rounds are explicitly stated to not benefit from Targeting Computers & lose the ability to make Aimed Shots.

Only the Flak rounds used by Standard ACs (along with the Flechette artillery shells used only by Artillery Cannons & the Airburst shells used only by 'Mech Mortars) are described as using proximity-detonators; in fact, the word "proximity" appears in Total Warfare only in relation to the flight speeds of aerodyne craft (pg. 80) & the Proximity Damage rules (pg. 88) and in TechManual with regard to wing-in-ground-effect vehicles (on pg. 115), while virtually every rulebook, sourcebook, and novel where the LB-X cluster rounds are mentioned describes them as behaving like shotshells ("When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions." - CBTMRr).

To summarize, BattleTech canon/lore indicates & supports the following:
LB-X AC cluster rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with explosive submunitions
Standard/Light AC Flechette rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with non-explosive shrapnel
Standard/Light AC Flak rounds = proximity-detonated shrapnel shell or HE shell with non-explosive shrapnel

I am curious as to what currently-extant canon/lore you believe supports your assertion that LB-C cluster rounds contain any form of proximity-detonator.

[Bigbacon]

this is not TT exact or lore exact!!! omg....

[Strum Wealh]

Bigbacon, on 29 June 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

this is not TT exact or lore exact!!! omg....

That part of the debate was with regard to Nik's (demonstrably incorrect) assertion that a LB-X cluster round "[flies] like [a standard] AC round but on impact it explodes and does splash damage", and Spheroid's assertion that Nik's position is supported by BattleTech canon (which is also demonstrably not-the-case).