79 replies to this topic

[badaa]

they will never touch convergence/pinpoint because the "pro" players will hav a ***** fit if they lose there easy button

[Davers]

Sug, on 26 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

No cone of fire because Timmy won't have any fun and Spike won't get to showcase his leet skills.

I think it would bother Spike much more than Timmy. And you can't have Esports without Spikes.

[Sug]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 June 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

You are wrong sir. I am a Timmy, and I fully support CoF. Firing 4 weapons and hitting a dinner plate with a basic Targeting computer should not happen.

You're a Johnny.

Davers, on 26 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I think it would bother Spike much more than Timmy. And you can't have Esports without Spikes.

Then PGI should have weekly tournaments so the Spikes have something to do besides terrorize the general population.

Edited by Sug, 26 June 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[DONTOR]

Starbound, on 26 June 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

I'd like to see the mouse roller used as a range convergence adjuster. You'd have to roll it up/down to increase/lower convergence based on your enemy's range otherwise all weapons would fire straight (torso would hit torse, center to center, arm to arm if two mechs stood facing one another. I think it would be a good but easy dynamic that would help minimize first of all, jump sniping, and second excessive PPFLD from gauss/ppc.

IMMERSION LEVEL CLIMAXING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT THIS!

Imagine relaying distance to your lance mates before they round the corner to fire at an atlas 1000M away. Atlas 1 click around the hill. That would be badass.

Edited by DONTOR, 26 June 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Remove arm lock

[Green Mamba]

How about Like Fighters of WW2 where the Maintenance Crews set convergence say at a certain Range like 300 yards where weapon projectiles Meet and after that range they slowly start to spread..Have it where you can preset this in Mech Lab Screen since this was done IRL and would be practical.Unless it is beyond the ability of Paul since it would make sense

Edited by Green Mamba, 26 June 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Sean von Steinike]

KAT Ayanami, on 26 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Legendary founder and Phonix overlord and you ask him if he is new?

Yeah, because he obviously hasn't been paying attention when this stuff has been suggested over...and over...and over again.

Edited by Sean von Steinike, 26 June 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Roller button convergence is a great idea. Id love to see this.

And yes, it would make the meta players even more deadly, much more so.

[Titus Ryan]

Sean von Steinike, on 26 June 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Yeah, because he obviously hasn't been paying attention when this stuff has been suggested over...and over...and over again.

Just because I dont **** out an opinion everyday doesnt mean I dont pay attention.

[JigglyMoobs]

badaa, on 26 June 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

they will never touch convergence/pinpoint because the "pro" players will hav a ***** fit if they lose there easy button

You mean, the one where they try to aim precisely at moving opponents while simultaneously managing 2 different weapons groups, the JJ shake, the gauss charge, their weapons lock, while also looking at the enemy paper doll and the tactical map?

Also, currently, as it stands, if you are moving laterally against an open background, there is ZERO convergence when the meta poptarts shoot at you. ZERO. This is because:

A: Their ballistics and PPCs move at different speeds
B: They have to LEAD you to hit. Thus, weapons converge at the terrain behind their reticule, not your mech. If you are moving against the sky as the background, their weapons are at infinite convergence.
C: Even if you are standing still, many times the convergence does not work correctly. You can see this directly if you try to snipe at someone through advanced zoom and then study the enemy's paper doll as your weapons hit. Even for someone standing sill, your shots often hit in non-adjacent components.

The only time when you get nailed by converged shots from a poptart is if you are standing perfectly still at medium to close range. In that case, I'd argue that maybe you deserve to get nailed. Further more, if they are that close, you should be torso twisting and advance on them to exploit your better DPS (if you've optimized your mech at all).

The only people who really benefit from instantaneous convergence right now are the laser users. Since those guys already suffer so much in the current meta, I'd argue that they deserve this reprieve.

Now, again, I'd love manual convergence. Give us that and start seeing components fly off maneuvering mechs at 800 m.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 26 June 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[AlexEss]

Sure you can have that when i have proper tracking cross-haris for each weapon then.. I have no intention to engage in a guessing game worse then what my current ping causes me to do... Yes HSR makes it consistent.. it is still a bit hit n miss where i need to shoot to hit.

To be honest with that you will probably need to simply close off EU and AU players that are not a a stellar connection.

But sure... should they find some time to fiddle with it i am willing to try it out on the PTS... I just don´t give it all that much chance.

[JigglyMoobs]

AlexEss, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Sure you can have that when i have proper tracking cross-haris for each weapon then.. I have no intention to engage in a guessing game worse then what my current ping causes me to do... Yes HSR makes it consistent.. it is still a bit hit n miss where i need to shoot to hit.

To be honest with that you will probably need to simply close off EU and AU players that are not a a stellar connection.

But sure... should they find some time to fiddle with it i am willing to try it out on the PTS... I just don´t give it all that much chance.

Manual convergence will make it better for you too. Part of the reason why HSR is an issue for you is that the automatic convergence is incorrect.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

JigglyMoobs, on 26 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

You mean, the one where they try to aim precisely at moving opponents while simultaneously managing 2 different weapons groups, the JJ shake, the gauss charge, their weapons lock, while also looking at the enemy paper doll and the tactical map?

In fairness, the FLD meta doesn't necessitate JJs or gauss rifles, and those of those things need to be managed by everyone regardless of their weapons loadout. Jump snipers tend to get most of the flack, but front loaded pin point damage in general has issues, I think.

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Also, currently, as it stands, if you are moving laterally against an open background, there is ZERO convergence when the meta poptarts shoot at you. ZERO. This is because:

A: Their ballistics and PPCs move at different speeds
B: They have to LEAD you to hit. Thus, weapons converge at the terrain behind their reticule, not your mech. If you are moving against the sky as the background, their weapons are at infinite convergence.
C: Even if you are standing still, many times the convergence does not work correctly. You can see this directly if you try to snipe at someone through advanced zoom and then study the enemy's paper doll as your weapons hit. Even for someone standing sill, your shots often hit in non-adjacent components.

A is a good point, and I can't comment on C as I frankly don't care enough to test. B is half right, in that if you *aren't* moving against the sky as a background, then depending on the position of the person firing at you, the error in the convergence can be pretty negligible.

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The only time when you get nailed by converged shots from a poptart is if you are standing perfectly still at medium to close range.

Or at a far enough range that the convergence error from deflection shooting isn't enough to spread damage.

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In that case, I'd argue that maybe you deserve to get nailed.

True, but you have to look at it in comparison to other weapons systems. It is easier to be effective using PP FLD weapons than, say, LRMs, and when you do screw up when facing someone using FLD weapons, the lesson is, in my experience, more painful on average than when you screw up against an LRM boat (the exception being when you get narc tagged on a map with limited cover).

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Further more, if they are that close, you should be torso twisting and advance on them to exploit your better DPS (if you've optimized your mech at all).

This strategy would be a lot more effective in pug play if there were better coms. It's easier to get a team to stay together behind a hill than it is to get them to charge, and if you charge alone, better DPS won't make up for the fact that you're the target of half their team.

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The only people who really benefit from instantaneous convergence right now are the laser users. Since those guys already suffer so much in the current meta, I'd argue that they deserve this reprieve.

Hmm, can't decide on this one. I think one could make the argument that since a laser user has to hold their target for an extended period anyway, they'd be less affected by having to wait a few extra moments for convergence. Would depend on how long convergence actually took, I guess.

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Now, again, I'd love manual convergence. Give us that and start seeing components fly off maneuvering mechs at 800 m.

Full manual convergence would probably drive away some of the more casual players, sadly. Would be fun to try though.

tl;dr - The issues affecting the current meta are certainly nuanced, and a skilled player can often overcome a less skilled player independent of their respective loadouts, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem to be fixed, and messing with convergence seems like a reasonable thing to try.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sug, on 26 June 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

You're a Johnny.





Then PGI should have weekly tournaments so the Spikes have something to do besides terrorize the general population.

Nope I am a Timmy with hints of johnny.

[JigglyMoobs]

Fitzbattleaxe, on 26 June 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

B is half right, in that if you *aren't* moving against the sky as a background, then depending on the position of the person firing at you, the error in the convergence can be pretty negligible.

I think B is almost always right if you are in a light. I don't remember the last time I was able to hit a light with both my gauss and ppcs at the same time at long range. For heavier mechs, I do get useful improvements in convergence shooting from an elevated position.

Then again, I have only been mounting my weapons on the same side in the DS style since I got my T-wolf a few days ago, so maybe that's different for the "proper" meta layout.

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True, but you have to look at it in comparison to other weapons systems. It is easier to be effective using PP FLD weapons than, say, LRMs, and when you do screw up when facing someone using FLD weapons, the lesson is, in my experience, more painful on average than when you screw up against an LRM boat (the exception being when you get narc tagged on a map with limited cover).

On the other hand, you don't have to expose yourself to any fire in the LRM boat, so I think that's only fair. Also, currently, the situation is that if you screw up vs lrms, every one with lrms on the other team opens up on you, and you are completely screwed if you are not careful.

In the average PUG game, you don't have as many meta players who can punish you in the same manner. IMO, it's kind of a wash overall.

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This strategy would be a lot more effective in pug play if there were better coms. It's easier to get a team to stay together behind a hill than it is to get them to charge, and if you charge alone, better DPS won't make up for the fact that you're the target of half their team.

I think this is the KEY ISSUE. People are focusing too much on "pin point" or "meta" when the real thing holding them back is the inability to communicate effectively with the rest of the team.

Most of the time, what they perceive as weapons/loadout advantages are actually teamwork/tactics advantages employed by people who tend to have meta loadouts. If there was some easy and very recognizable non-verbal signaling system for PUGs, then team cohesion would ameliorate a lot of their pain.

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Hmm, can't decide on this one. I think one could make the argument that since a laser user has to hold their target for an extended period anyway, they'd be less affected by having to wait a few extra moments for convergence. Would depend on how long convergence actually took, I guess.

I've been trying a laser boat T-wolf for a couple of days. It's very tough right now.

A. The amount of time you already have to expose yourself and not torso twist is already very punishing.
B. If you are at 75 ping and above like me, you are not hitting where you think you are hitting and not doing full damage unless both you yourself and your opponent stand perfectly still. So your weapons are not nearly as effective as their stats even if you have perfect aim.

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Full manual convergence would probably drive away some of the more casual players, sadly. Would be fun to try though.

Why not have a toggle? Like I said, I think what many people don't realize is that they are not being subjected to full convergence, at all. Right now, the convergence situation actually favors the causal players except in very specific situations. I don't think adding manual convergence would fix the "omg I just got a torso crit by a poptart" type situations, but it would add an extra layer of skill for people who want that.

[Dirkdaring]

badaa, on 26 June 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

they will never touch convergence/pinpoint because the "pro" players will hav a ***** fit if they lose there easy button

No, its more that the PGI realizes that bad players need to learn to move.

[Impyrium]

I think PGI have proven that they have very little interest in creating a simulation. They can throw about their "Nobody else was going to make MW again" thing around, but ultimately they picked it up for the money and nothing but the money. They'll work on things that net them money, and they obviously want to make the game more usable for E-Sports in order for moar money.

What they don't realize, though, is that's not going to happen. This game will never attract big crowds, because it was originally a sim, and they're trying to make it less of a sim. They can't win on both crowds, and they're not going to win with e-sports, but they're also not going to make enough money if they focus on just as BT fans.

The situation can feel very depressing sometimes. The fact that a single guy created a much, much better 'simulation' of BattleTech in BLENDER means that it's not because they can't, it's because they won't, create the MechWarrior experience this should be.

[FupDup]

http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

That is all.

[ProtoformX]

If I'm remembering correctly, instant convergence was a prerequisite for network state rewind to work. Therefor, this may be a technically limited feature that cannot be changed.

[Rageius]

I enjoy the game as it is now, and would hate to see any changes of this kind. The current setup rewards pilots who are able to accurately place shots, as it should be.